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BSA1917HUNTER I've never understood the belt problem either. I hear folks say there is the "headspacing off the belt" problem. What problem ? Then they say its hard for a gunsmith to cut that chamber and head space it correctly. Any smith who cant cut either belted or non-belted equally as well, needs to get some training or another job.
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
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And if you are hand loading, why not size the brass like this: adjust the die so you size the neck, then only bump the shoulder enough that the bolt closes without unnecessary force. This allows the case to set against the belt and shoulder. Surely I'm not the only one who does this. Charlie
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'd like to see a better fit on the first firing.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And if you are hand loading, why not size the brass like this: adjust the die so you size the neck, then only bump the shoulder enough that the bolt closes without unnecessary force. This allows the case to set against the belt and shoulder. Surely I'm not the only one who does this. Charlie It's exactly how I do it. Not forceful but not easy/sloppy either. Snug close.
Me
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Last I tested the 7mm Rem mag with 175 grain Partitions, 3000 fps measured in the mid 70,000 psi range. With a 27 inch Lilja 1x9 twist barrel. What powder were you using Charlie?
Semper Fi
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I have worked with nearly all of the contemporary 7's. The only two I have not is the 7x57, 7 PRC & 7 RUM. None of them offer anything I cannot obtain from the 280 AI or 7 Wby. The real problem is that they don't make animals as definitively different as cartridges within the same caliber, so that there can never be a separation of these cartridge with this one will kill this animal and this one won't. That's why comparing cartridges can only be separated by different bullets used and different ranges of application. BUT, and there is always a BUT, if the same bullet is used in each cartridge, something universally respected such as the 160gn Accubond, there is no appreciable difference between any of them if the bullet is placed in the same spot. Something else I learned culling, the more cartridges you use, the more similar the performance over a number of animals. When they all work, it negates most arguments. I'll be the first to agree, 100%. I learned that the hard way. My two chosen cartridges are a matter of enjoying the rifles each are chambered in.
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
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I used Reloder 22, Magnum, and IMR 7828, H1000. Magnum worked the best, lowest pressure with most velocity and best groups. Still, mid 70's is way too high for me. But for some, that's just getting started good !
Last edited by CharlieSisk; 02/16/24.
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
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Campfire Ranger
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What a loser... No Mashburn Super He wanted to give the other cartridges a chance, beretzs! This should be interesting. I like that they're going to test the best factory options at 100 and 600 yds as well as all the handloading stuff. I wonder how they'll address pressure differences in the handloading part. This guy seems very knowledgeable but, he's definitely got opinions. How he handles the testing will be make or break. Super smart idea for his company though - tap into all the angst over these questions and personal feelings. If done methodically and fairly, it'll be great and sell some rifles, too I bet! As he said, mag box length/handloading is huge comparing these cartridges. On a side note that might interest a couple of you, I'm packing up my 7PRC CLR to go back to Outkast for a re-paint. You learn alot about yourself with a custom build if you're open to it and, I've had to admit to myself that I'm just not man enough for a brash paint job on a rifle stock! God bless you guys who are and can handle the sideways looks from your hunting buddies when you uncase those tawdry shootin irons. Anyway, I emailed Glenn to let him know it was on the way and asked him about lengthening the mag box. He told me he had just finished a fixture to make that a standard option on his CLR jobs - milling the mag box well and ejection port and installing a Rem 3.7 mag box. Those guys are killing it. So, that's on the work order. When I get around to handloading for this thing or rebarrel it for the Mashburn I'll be all set! Now that’s the spirit!
Semper Fi
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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And if you are hand loading, why not size the brass like this: adjust the die so you size the neck, then only bump the shoulder enough that the bolt closes without unnecessary force. This allows the case to set against the belt and shoulder. Surely I'm not the only one who does this. Charlie Charlie, I think a lot of us are sizing our brass like that. It's really the only way to do it properly as far as I'm concerned. Size to the shoulder, with around a .002" bump. Works great that way..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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BSA1917HUNTER I've never understood the belt problem either. I hear folks say there is the "headspacing off the belt" problem. What problem ? Then they say its hard for a gunsmith to cut that chamber and head space it correctly. Any smith who cant cut either belted or non-belted equally as well, needs to get some training or another job. Amen...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'd like to see a better fit on the first firing. It fireforms just like anything else.. Chamber dimensions vary a bit though. I've never had any issues regarding this, but of course YMMV..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Tracker
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I really do think that the 7mm PRC makes the other long action & mags superfluous, a little better than the AO, no belt, modern case design, effective and easy to shoot. Haven't shot my 7mm RM since I completed the PRC, don't imagine I'll use it much again. You may think the long actions and belts are superfluous, and that's everyone's choice. For myself, I think the PRC is a marketing gimmick to sell more rifles and ammo. It does nothing for me as a reloader because I can load any bullet I want and match or beat it in velocity and accuracy. Gotta love choices and maybe for the majority of hunters that shoot nothing but factory ammo it may have an advantage for now. But as more gun makers put 8 twist tubes on their 7mm Rem mags that could very well change. I used a 7mm RM for almost 20 years, great cartridge, maybe better than the PRC for most deer hunting but I think it's the best of the 7RM and 300 WM when distance increases with 175 projectiles. BTW, it is a "long action". Marketing gimmick??? Hardly, it's the slow evolution of a better/improved cartridge which has been very subtle since the '06 in 1906! Belts have been a useless "gimmick" since they were introduced with the exception of the 300 H&H that actually needed a belt to headspace. Belts have been marketed for "magnums" to give the hunter/shooter the impression that his cartridge is something extra special that needs the extra support. Totally useless and a disadvantage if the cartridge actually headspaces on the belt. The "belted-mag" is the epitome of marketing gimmick! For handloaders (I was one for years, don't have time or interest now), your choices are almost limitless, but for someone who buys off the shelf, specialty ammo is hard to find.
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I used Reloder 22, Magnum, and IMR 7828, H1000. Magnum worked the best, lowest pressure with most velocity and best groups. Still, mid 70's is way too high for me. But for some, that's just getting started good ! Thanks for the intel Charlie. For the initial shot, it seems too easy to neck up to 30 and then false shoulder them.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Apr 2011
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To Charlie’s point, how does a 7 PRC get 3k with a 175 but a 7 Rem can’t do it under 70k Special shoulders? Extra special speed from its short length? It’s not from extra case space I’d guess
Semper Fi
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To Charlie’s point, how does a 7 PRC get 3k with a 175 but a 7 Rem can’t do it under 70k Special shoulders? Extra special speed from its short length? It’s not from extra case space I’d guess Fairy dust, brother. I've noticed some in the ones I've pulled apart.
"One should not talk to a skilled hunter about what is forbidden by the Buddha." - Hsiang-yen by way of Gary Snyder
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It can’t and doesn’t Scotty. That’s why we hear all the complaining about factory ammo not coming close to the published 3000 fps the boxes have printed on them. They can’t get that speed without going way overboard on pressure. Something any ammo maker is not gonna do.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I really do think that the 7mm PRC makes the other long action & mags superfluous, a little better than the AO, no belt, modern case design, effective and easy to shoot. Haven't shot my 7mm RM since I completed the PRC, don't imagine I'll use it much again. You may think the long actions and belts are superfluous, and that's everyone's choice. For myself, I think the PRC is a marketing gimmick to sell more rifles and ammo. It does nothing for me as a reloader because I can load any bullet I want and match or beat it in velocity and accuracy. Gotta love choices and maybe for the majority of hunters that shoot nothing but factory ammo it may have an advantage for now. But as more gun makers put 8 twist tubes on their 7mm Rem mags that could very well change. I used a 7mm RM for almost 20 years, great cartridge, maybe better than the PRC for most deer hunting but I think it's the best of the 7RM and 300 WM when distance increases with 175 projectiles. BTW, it is a "long action". Marketing gimmick??? Hardly, it's the slow evolution of a better/improved cartridge which has been very subtle since the '06 in 1906! Belts have been a useless "gimmick" since they were introduced with the exception of the 300 H&H that actually needed a belt to headspace. Belts have been marketed for "magnums" to give the hunter/shooter the impression that his cartridge is something extra special that needs the extra support. Totally useless and a disadvantage if the cartridge actually headspaces on the belt. The "belted-mag" is the epitome of marketing gimmick! For handloaders (I was one for years, don't have time or interest now), your choices are almost limitless, but for someone who buys off the shelf, specialty ammo is hard to find. I don't mind the new cartridges coming out. Being "marketing gimmicks" or not. If a guy already has a 7mm RM, then he probably won't really benefit from buying a PRC. Especially if he's just your ordinary hunter. Most hunters making shots on big game animals at less than 400 yards anyway, just about any 7mm works. Yes, even the little 7mm-08. Just don't try to blow smoke up someones azz by saying the belt is a problem on a cartridge. It may not be needed, but it really poses no adverse problem. Where the newer cartridges really shine is in the twist rate, but if we are talking 160gr bullets in the 7mm, that is a moot point. Because every 7mm will shoot a 160gr projectile with ease. Hell, even the 7x57 earned its reputation with a 175gr bullet. W.D.M Bell used his 7x57 rifles to kill over 1,000 elephants with 173gr military ammo..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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To Charlie’s point, how does a 7 PRC get 3k with a 175 but a 7 Rem can’t do it under 70k Special shoulders? Extra special speed from its short length? It’s not from extra case space I’d guess Fairy dust, brother. I've noticed some in the ones I've pulled apart. Fair enough! Seen that stuff do some amazing stuff!
Semper Fi
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,302 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,302 Likes: 37 |
To Charlie’s point, how does a 7 PRC get 3k with a 175 but a 7 Rem can’t do it under 70k Special shoulders? Extra special speed from its short length? It’s not from extra case space I’d guess Fairy dust, brother. I've noticed some in the ones I've pulled apart. Fair enough! Seen that stuff do some amazing stuff! Ok Hunter. ha ha..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Tracker
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I really do think that the 7mm PRC makes the other long action & mags superfluous, a little better than the AO, no belt, modern case design, effective and easy to shoot. Haven't shot my 7mm RM since I completed the PRC, don't imagine I'll use it much again. You may think the long actions and belts are superfluous, and that's everyone's choice. For myself, I think the PRC is a marketing gimmick to sell more rifles and ammo. It does nothing for me as a reloader because I can load any bullet I want and match or beat it in velocity and accuracy. Gotta love choices and maybe for the majority of hunters that shoot nothing but factory ammo it may have an advantage for now. But as more gun makers put 8 twist tubes on their 7mm Rem mags that could very well change. I used a 7mm RM for almost 20 years, great cartridge, maybe better than the PRC for most deer hunting but I think it's the best of the 7RM and 300 WM when distance increases with 175 projectiles. BTW, it is a "long action". Marketing gimmick??? Hardly, it's the slow evolution of a better/improved cartridge which has been very subtle since the '06 in 1906! Belts have been a useless "gimmick" since they were introduced with the exception of the 300 H&H that actually needed a belt to headspace. Belts have been marketed for "magnums" to give the hunter/shooter the impression that his cartridge is something extra special that needs the extra support. Totally useless and a disadvantage if the cartridge actually headspaces on the belt. The "belted-mag" is the epitome of marketing gimmick! For handloaders (I was one for years, don't have time or interest now), your choices are almost limitless, but for someone who buys off the shelf, specialty ammo is hard to find. I don't mind the new cartridges coming out. Being "marketing gimmicks" or not. If a guy already has a 7mm RM, then he probably won't really benefit from buying a PRC. Especially if he's just your ordinary hunter. Most hunters making shots on big game animals at less than 400 yards anyway, just about any 7mm works. Yes, even the little 7mm-08. Just don't try to blow smoke up someones azz by saying the belt is a problem on a cartridge. It may not be needed, but it really poses no adverse problem. Where the newer cartridges really shine is in the twist rate, but if we are talking 160gr bullets in the 7mm, that is a moot point. Because every 7mm will shoot a 160gr projectile with ease. Hell, even the 7x57 earned its reputation with a 175gr bullet. W.D.M Bell used his 7x57 rifles to kill over 1,000 elephants with 173gr military ammo.. "Just don't try to blow smoke up someones azz by saying the belt is a problem on a cartridge" - well, they actually are! They headspace on the belt, not the preferred shoulder and they take up space in the magazine and "can" impede feeding from said mag. I have no plans to sell my 7mm RM but when lots of $$$ (at least for me) is on the line for a new build, I chose the 7 PRC. I've owned several "7mms - the 270 is actually the true 7mm (7mm = .27559") but let's not get sidetracked, including the 7mm-08, 7x57 and the aforementioned RM, of the lot, I miss the 7x57 the most!
Last edited by 257Bob; 02/16/24.
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