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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59 |
Been doing more reading on SD and ES in a load and why you want them to be low. Makes sense.
I'm wondering what you all consider to be "low" for this number? That is - if a guy gets to 10, consider that good or is good actually 7 and great 5 - so to speak.
Where do you like to be? Is there a floor where you'll just never get under?
Me
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Been doing more reading on SD and ES in a load and why you want them to be low. Makes sense.
I'm wondering what you all consider to be "low" for this number? That is - if a guy gets to 10, consider that good or is good actually 7 and great 5 - so to speak.
Where do you like to be? Is there a floor where you'll just never get under? There will be much said on this thread. What I will state is that almost every last time I was shooting at 600 yards and watched the chrono the load that produced the lowest ES and SD and then went and looked at the holes in the paper I was never happy. The lowest ES and SD just never produced best accuracy. That said nothing wrong with low numbers. In fact they are good. But it changed my attitude totally. Run the chrono sometime so I know what ballpark speed. But test ammo at a far distance and go by how tight repeatable groups are. Looking for weird flyers to indicate IFFY load. And watching for round groups as a whole. Got to where I played mostly with primers and neck tension and pretty much ignored the chrono and paid attention to actual groups. What we found is you can have low numbers and bad groups. Or you can have decent numbers and good groups. I know what I want.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,484
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,484 |
And add in seating depth to what rost said
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is. dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box. Italian Proverb
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516 |
Been doing more reading on SD and ES in a load and why you want them to be low. Makes sense.
I'm wondering what you all consider to be "low" for this number? That is - if a guy gets to 10, consider that good or is good actually 7 and great 5 - so to speak.
Where do you like to be? Is there a floor where you'll just never get under? There will be much said on this thread. What I will state is that almost every last time I was shooting at 600 yards and watched the chrono the load that produced the lowest ES and SD and then went and looked at the holes in the paper I was never happy. The lowest ES and SD just never produced best accuracy. That said nothing wrong with low numbers. In fact they are good. But it changed my attitude totally. Run the chrono sometime so I know what ballpark speed. But test ammo at a far distance and go by how tight repeatable groups are. Looking for weird flyers to indicate IFFY load. And watching for round groups as a whole. Got to where I played mostly with primers and neck tension and pretty much ignored the chrono and paid attention to actual groups. What we found is you can have low numbers and bad groups. Or you can have decent numbers and good groups. I know what I want. Those are great points from experience. ES and SD don't account for barrel harmonics.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59 |
I've read where some find the best ES (lowest) and then adjust seating depth to get the best group out of that ES. Is that real/fake etc - this is coming from F class guys.
Me
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive.
Swifty
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. HA! (But know guys who take it seriously....)
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. I'm a 5 shot guy and honestly, I understand that for most of my life, 100 yard sight in and then go hunt out to 250/300 with little struggle but my interests are starting to stretch out and I realize finding an "accurate" load for that typical deer hunting isn't hard and it starts to matter a lot more past those ranges. Why I've started looking/poking around guys like Cortina and F-Class John on such topics of load development. Just hoping to get a good cabin fever discussion that's beyond "Creedmoor doesn't do anything XXXX doesn't do" type of discourse.
Me
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,576 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,576 Likes: 8 |
I tweak for consistent pressure/speed by adjusting powder type and charge weight, consistent neck tension, primer ignition, etc., and then adjust seating depth to time bullet release at an anti-node in the harmonic motion of the muzzle. That gets both low velocity dispersion and low POI dispersion.
To answer the question in the OP, sample size matters. Statistical quantities like SD and ES are only really meaningful if the sample size is large enough. Typically, a sample size of 30+ is where we start to associate some weight to variance metrics like SD. If you take a sample of 30 shots and the SD value is less than 10, that’s very good.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,470
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,470 |
I`ve never done that numbers thing, and I`ve loaded thousands of rounds of match ammo. Mostly for the 308. I find a load that shoots well at one and two hundred, either with the match gun or hunting rifle, and go with it. I then concentrate on what I`m doing, couse I do f`up now and then.
Sometimes we make this loading stuff way too complcated.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29 |
Yep, a minimum of 30 is what a major American ammunition factory uses when working up loads with a new batch of powder.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6 |
I tweak for consistent pressure/speed by adjusting powder type and charge weight, consistent neck tension, primer ignitions, etc., and then adjust seating depth to time bullet release at an anti-node in the harmonic motion of the muzzle. That gets both low velocity dispersion and low POI dispersion.
To answer the question in the OP, sample size matters. Statistical quantities like SD and ES are only really meaningful if the sample size is large enough. Typically, a sample size of 30+ is where we start to associate some weight to variance metrics like SD. If you take a sample of 30 shots and the SD value is less than 10, that’s very good. 👍👍👍👍 Seems that this is usually left out of the mix, or has been in most discussions on this subject.
Swifty
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59 |
To answer the question in the OP, sample size matters. Statistical quantities like SD and ES are only really meaningful if the sample size is large enough. Typically, a sample size of 30+ is where we start to associate some weight to variance metrics like SD. If you take a sample of 30 shots and the SD value is less than 10, that’s very good. Absolutely, larger the sample size the better and I agree. Good reason to shoot more.... which probably isn't a bad thing. So assuming a large enough sample size to be relevant - what's the final number you want to see? Sub 10 or?
Me
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
I've read where some find the best ES (lowest) and then adjust seating depth to get the best group out of that ES. Is that real/fake etc - this is coming from F class guys. That could work. I've never tried it that way. Seating depth was pretty much a given for me. Same barrels, same chamber reamers etc... and at that point I knew where it should be. And playing with it never really changed much. That said I never went back to the lowest ES and played after that.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. I'm a 5 shot guy and honestly, I understand that for most of my life, 100 yard sight in and then go hunt out to 250/300 with little struggle but my interests are starting to stretch out and I realize finding an "accurate" load for that typical deer hunting isn't hard and it starts to matter a lot more past those ranges. Why I've started looking/poking around guys like Cortina and F-Class John on such topics of load development. Just hoping to get a good cabin fever discussion that's beyond "Creedmoor doesn't do anything XXXX doesn't do" type of discourse. I don't waste lots of shots proving anything anymore. Especially since I'm not competition anymore. There I needed to know if things were good with 20 shot groups... But what I do is continue to shoot what I pick at the onset, at various yardages. One of my favorite things the last years is since we have been playing the BDC sig scopes, take a 3 inch diamond target. Put it up. Shoot one at somewhere around each of the 100s... out to 500 or 600. And see if I can keep all 5/6 shots in the 3 inch bull. I can do it most of the time. It verifies day in and day out that the load is solid. Really for me, it goes back to the Audette. Get in the middle of the highest MV node and that should serve probably 95 % of peoples needs
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,576 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,576 Likes: 8 |
To answer the question in the OP, sample size matters. Statistical quantities like SD and ES are only really meaningful if the sample size is large enough. Typically, a sample size of 30+ is where we start to associate some weight to variance metrics like SD. If you take a sample of 30 shots and the SD value is less than 10, that’s very good. Absolutely, larger the sample size the better and I agree. Good reason to shoot more.... which probably isn't a bad thing. So assuming a large enough sample size to be relevant - what's the final number you want to see? Sub 10 or? Yeah, an SD of less than 10 fps is my target.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,719 Likes: 6 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. I'm a 5 shot guy and honestly, I understand that for most of my life, 100 yard sight in and then go hunt out to 250/300 with little struggle but my interests are starting to stretch out and I realize finding an "accurate" load for that typical deer hunting isn't hard and it starts to matter a lot more past those ranges. Why I've started looking/poking around guys like Cortina and F-Class John on such topics of load development. Just hoping to get a good cabin fever discussion that's beyond "Creedmoor doesn't do anything XXXX doesn't do" type of discourse. Tell ya what try putting 20-25 rounds into a 1.5” circle at 300 yards instead of deer hunting accuracy. It really isnt that easy as people think.
Swifty
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,388 Likes: 59 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. I'm a 5 shot guy and honestly, I understand that for most of my life, 100 yard sight in and then go hunt out to 250/300 with little struggle but my interests are starting to stretch out and I realize finding an "accurate" load for that typical deer hunting isn't hard and it starts to matter a lot more past those ranges. Why I've started looking/poking around guys like Cortina and F-Class John on such topics of load development. Just hoping to get a good cabin fever discussion that's beyond "Creedmoor doesn't do anything XXXX doesn't do" type of discourse. Tell ya what try putting 20-25 rounds into a 1.5” circle at 300 yards instead of deer hunting accuracy. It really isnt that easy as people think. As a function of shooting ability or as a function of actually being an accurate load? - that's the point. Eliminate the variable and do the best you can while building the load. I'm trying to learn what does/doesn't matter with the load and to a degree then - what's the target for those data points to indicate, I've found the load - now work on the idiot yanking the trigger.
Me
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,365 Likes: 13
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,365 Likes: 13 |
Only fire 3 shots so you can claim single digits on both to be impressive. I'm a 5 shot guy and honestly, I understand that for most of my life, 100 yard sight in and then go hunt out to 250/300 with little struggle but my interests are starting to stretch out and I realize finding an "accurate" load for that typical deer hunting isn't hard and it starts to matter a lot more past those ranges. Why I've started looking/poking around guys like Cortina and F-Class John on such topics of load development. Just hoping to get a good cabin fever discussion that's beyond "Creedmoor doesn't do anything XXXX doesn't do" type of discourse. Great topic.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,787 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,787 Likes: 6 |
What I will state is that almost every last time I was shooting at 600 yards and watched the chrono the load that produced the lowest ES and SD and then went and looked at the holes in the paper I was never happy. The lowest ES and SD just never produced best accuracy. . +1 dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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