Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Has anyone had accuracy or regulation issues because of ammo for double rifle?

I have a 500 NE that shoots well often but throws flyers too many times,some up to 10 or more inches at 50yds.

I always use the proper load the rifle was regulated for.

If it not the rifle or the shooter what could be causing this?

The load I use is a compressed load of 110grs,IMR 4831.

I decided to switch to Norma brass instead of Hornady, load to starting load to reduce compression and recoil.

I also loaded them with North Fork cup point and going to give it a try next time out to see if I still get flyers.

is the flyer always from the first barrel ... or second barrel? .... or random from either barrel?

The first for sure but I am not sure about the second.

If it used to shoot okay before, then maybe a muzzle has been damaged or something?

Mine shoots good with 106gn AR2209 (IMR4350 equivalent) with both 570gn and 450gn Woodleighs. I didn't have regulation load for my rifle (Merkel) but used loads from Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle". (His book doesn't include any loads for the 500NE using IMR4831 BTW. He tried other loads but only the AR2209/IMR4350 loads produced good regulation, or something like that) I've tried 600gn North Forks using 103gn AR2209 and the regulation was not as good as the others but still within acceptable specs. I had no published data for the 600gn and came up with that load myself.

"If it used to shoot okay before, then maybe a muzzle has been damaged or something?"



It did this from the beginning-from when I bought it new.There isn't any damage to the muzzles.

I've made some really god shots with the rifle but there where times it failed to shoot at the wrong time.

IF I don't get it 100% reliable it will not go hunting again and I will use my bolt rifle instead.

SS,

What brand is the DR? Is the problem both inconsistent accuracy and problems with action reliability? Has another shooter experienced with DRs shot it and experienced similar results as you have? Is the action off the face?

Since you bought it new, have you considered sending it to the maker for a check up? I’ve had a couple of DRs which easily shot to regulation with several loads. I was able to get max expected MVs with lower powder charges than you mentioned with powders in the 4350 burning rate.

What kind of MVs are you getting? Is the MV consistently close from each barrel? It’s unlikely they’ll be the same but they should be close. Have you chronographed each barrel?

More detailed info may help in diagnosing the problem.

Thanks.I am going to try IMR 4350.

Just a thought, it's not a Sabatti is it? (At one time they did a horrendous thing to try and get them to regulate but it only made things worse. That was some time ago and they learned that lesson I believe. A friend of mine has a Sabatti 470NE and all's good with it.)

After the Cabela's fiasco with Sabattis, they've really gotten their s hit in one sock. Their regulation is excellent and overall a great value for what you pay for them. They might not be a "best quality" British double, but they are nevertheless a good buy. And I was one of the many screwed by Cabelas with the screwed up barrels, but fortunately received a full refund,

Best I go to the range again and give you a detailed report.

I ordered a pound of IMR4350.It should be here early next week so I will shoot it next weekend.

Yes, it was Cabela's doing, but there must've been a Sabatti regulation issue to start with.

As posted above, it would be a good idea to have someone else shoot it too.

I test my loads from a standing rest - that way my body is in the same position that I normally shoot it in. Mind you another friend of mine has shot his from a lead sled while sitting, and accuracy and regulation worked just as well.

I went to the range today with my Searcy 500NE the best double rifle in the world.

I shot 106grs IMR 4831with Norma cases,Win primers and North Fork cup points.

I solved the issue with the flyers-it was the Hornady cases that were causing the problem.

It recoiled and handled like a dream.

Here is the group I shot at 50yds off the bench.

What was wrong with the cases? Bad batch? I use Hornady without issues, and they last pretty well.

It could be that the compressed charge was deforming the case during the bullet seating operation.

I have another double that has much more serious issues.I will try using a starting load with that and see what happens.
The other is a 450NE and the load it was regulated with is really compressed even using a long drop tube.
Norma does not make cases for the 450 NE.I am going to use some new Hornady.I might look for another bullet besides the 480gr Woodleigh I am using.
Although I have not tested it, the 500gr Woodleigh I tested with my 458 is too soft or fragile.'
Anyone have good success with another bullet for the 450NE?

That was some great shooting and a nice looking rifle.Was that you?
Could be a better shot without sticks.

Open sights at that distance, the sticks are better than off hand…

I presume that you'll try the Hornady brass with the IMR4350 - shouldn't be a compressed load.


I've had deformed case compressed loads in my 458WM that otherwise worked okay BTW.

I wish I knew more about doubles and what is going on.

The 458WM will work well in a bolt compressed or not.

No,I exchanged the IMR4350 for IMR4831 and will be staying with the load I shot the target with.

Reading and surmising that you switched both brass and bullets in the posted target load so how did you determine the brass caused flyers?

I've shot these bullets before and they shot just like the Woodleigh.

What I changed was the brass and the powder charge so it could be the charge and not the cases.

It is interesting that I checked the powder charge on my 450NE-my second double Rifle,and I found a site with load data for IMR4831 and the 480gr bullets

that shows data with close to 7grs of powder difference between max loads used with Woodleigh and Hornady bullets.My charge is 9grs more than the 2100fps than the load with the Hornady bullet.

https://450nitroexpress.weebly.com/reloading-data.html

Up until now I have only used the load given to me by the manufacturer-the load the rifles were regulated with.

Furthermore,the 450 is uncomfortable to shoot even with a mercury break.I had a swollen nose and bruised face at the last range session.

I have returned it to the manufacturer a couple of times and it still shoots all over the place.

I am going to try reducing the load just like I did with my 500 and see what happens.

I would change the cases for Norma but Norma doesn't make cases for the 450.

A swollen nose and face is known to cause flyers as well. Good luck in your efforts.
F01

It is well established that loads which produce significantly higher MVs than regulation cause crossing of the shots in DRs and could explain the dispersion you describe. There’s a relatively small window of MVs that will keep groups small.

IME there’s no reason to push the 500 NE 3” beyond 2150-2175 FPS with good 570 grain monolithic solids, even for large bull elephants. That level of power produces straight line penetration measured in feet, even through leg bones and skulls.

If a shooter is not extremely experienced with very high recoil DGRs, the kind of punishment you describe is a real problem because it causes aversion to the shot and can play havoc with consistent accuracy. We’re all human and repeated pain … hurts!! Rifle fit and developing a shooting form that prevents repeated trauma are critical.

I’m speaking from experience from when I first started regularly shooting relatively light weight DGRs chambered for cartridges in the 75-80+ lbs-ft of recoil energy. No judgement of your skill just stating my experience.

What did Searcy say after you sent him the rifle back? Is your Searcy a recent production DR or an earlier model?

BTW my experience with Hornady brass has apparently been very different than yours. I use Hornady brass for 375 & 404/375 Ruger, 450-400 3”, 416 and 450 Rigby and 404 Jeffery. I haven’t had problems in reloading these cartridges. YMMV

I bought it new around 2018.As soon as I shot it for the first time it shot the first 3 or so shots well but then started to group both barrels about 5 inches apart horizontally and a few inches apart vertically.It shot worst with every range session.I sent it back and asked Butch to replace the barrels with ones with a larger contour-I didn't like the size IMO they where not your ordinary 450 size barrels.Butch changed them no problem and I loved the new ones and look/feel of the new version.When I brought it to the range again the same scenario repeated itself and I sent it back again and then again, same thing.Everything about the rifle is perfect-I really like it but it won't shoot.I then sent it to an english smith in Canada who I am told has experience in regulating english doubles.The fellow passed away before he got a chance to look at it and I now have it back.It could be the only thing wrong is the load I am using-the load it is supposed to be regulated with.I have now loaded some rounds with a lower charge and I am hoping they will shoot just like my 500 Searcy.

swiftshot,

If your problems persist and you want a real expert to fix the problem you may wish to contact J. J. Perodeau at Champlin Arms. He is a specialist in double rifle work, including regulation, if needed.

I have not had work done by him, but he is reputed to be an expert who does good work.

I've talked to him once at DSC around 2018 and on the phone a couple of weeks ago.He is not a fan of Searcy rifles and refused to work on a Searcy.He said that if I sent it to him and he regulated it and then the problem resurfaces I will blame him and talk bad about him.My Searcy 500 proves him wrong no matter his reputation.

I found the book Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright particularly useful.

You might find chapters 8-11 on problem solving by adjusting loads to regulate the rifle particularly helpful. As you’d see, the problem of a DR producing small individual groups for each barrel, while printing separate groups is well addressed.

Sent you a PM.

Good luck.

+1 Good advice.

I did a small search for the book but can't find anyone who has it in stock.

I will reorder the IMR4350.I've read good reports here and elsewhere about it being a very good powder for both the 500NE and the 450NE.

Better find someone who will work on your Searcy. Butch hung it up and closed down his business.
Butch told me to stick with IMR 4831 for the 450 NE he built for me.

Best I make sure it needs fixing, no?

I look forward to going to the range tomorrow with my 450NE to try a lower charge of IMR4831 and see what happens.Could it be the issue was that the charge the rifle was supposed to be regulated with is to high for my rifle to regulate?

swiftshots,

It would help to measure the muzzle velocities of our loads in your DR - 3 shots is usually representative - from each barrel, if you have access to a chronograph. That’s the best way of determining whether you’re close to usual regulation loads.

I don’t know the quality of his work, but you might call Ellis Brown and have a conversation with him about your DR problem. He seems to understand DR design, function and issues, as outlined in his book Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions . He might be able to help.

Remember that Butch Searcy started out using shotgun actions as the basis for his DRs - I don’t know whether yours is one of these - so I suspect the latter actions he built from scratch were probably influenced by his prior earlier experience.

Wildcatter,

I plan on using my Chronograph soon.

My 500NE is all set to hunt Africa again.It is a fine rifle.I have held other much more expensive rifles in my hands but nothing

is as good as my Searcy.Butch said that he regulated my 500NE himself.

As for my 450NE,I will be trying a reduced load of IMR 4831 and if that doesn't shoot well I will be loading some with IMR 4350.

If that doesn't work I will try to find someone who will examine the rifle.

Both of my rifles are mono bloc design.They are not built on shotgun actions.

Butch is at an old age and had health problems during the times I sent the rifle back to him.I believe he was in and out of the hospital.

Back from the range today.

This at 50yds off the bench.

The reduced load of IMR4831 got the rifle to shoot and group about 4 inches apart.This is a huge difference than what id did before with a full load shooting all over the target paper and not grouping at all.

I will try IMR 4350 next time out.

Great regulation with the 500 NE!! Very good shooting!!

Sounds like you’re making real progress with the 450 as well. Good luck!

I've loaded up some rounds using IMR 4350 for the 450NE.I am going to go to the range on Sunday and see if they will shoot better than the IMR 4831 loads I shot the target with above.

I used the same load with IMR 4831 that I shot the above target with and it shot a little better.The ones marked R,and L are the IMR4831 load.I then shot some with a starting charge of IMR4350.Although I did not use a Chronograph the IMR 4350 recoil felt very light.
The rifle is regulated with IMR4831.
50yd target

I was at the range again and tried to use my Oehler 35P Chronograph to check speed but it did not work indoors.I then decided to shoot the double offhand and do so regularly to get me in top shooting shape.

I was looking for some Woodleigh 450NE, 480gr RN SN bullets but can't find some.Instead I found some 480gr bullets for the 458WM.
Will these work in my double? Could I crimp them in the same cannelure?

Here is a target I shot yesterday.

There are two four shot groups on this used target.The 500NE groups on the top left and the 400NE groups just to the bottom of the bullseye.I've shot much better groups especially with the 500NE but I am satisfied with the results in that both my doubles are shooting great.