|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,755 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,755 Likes: 8 |
So… if a million armed Communist Chinese, crossed the border, we’ll give them a cell phone, put them up in hotels, feed them and tell them “welcome to America” What do you mean "if"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3 |
What does question 12c on form 4473 mean? Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the US? Can an alien acquire a firearm legally or not?
One can not ignore that Judge Coleman could be a DEI hire. The 4473 form that is in opposition to the infringe nention in the 2A? Point one...EVERYTHING the ATF has done contravenes the clear and simple language of the 2A. We can agree on that. But it (the existence of the ATF, the NFA, the GCA of 1968) has never been successfully challenged and decided...so we MUST deal with the law as written and currently on the books...and the law clearly prohibits the acquisition (and by implication, possession) of any firearm by someone unlawfully in the US, 4473, 12c. As originally intended...Judges do not make law. Judges interpret and apply the law, decide guilt and impose sentences when the law is violated. But since Marxism took over the educational system...what we get now in the legal profession is anybodies guess.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
[quote]A person Legally in the US has a RIGHT to the 2A, endowed from our creator and no government can take that away and this is a good case to point that out. While this person is illegal and this person, technically is a criminal - they still enjoy the right to the 2A while in the US. Now explain how you take the 2A away from someone who isn't..... /quote] Fixed it for you.  A convicted felon has no right to bear arms, Neither should anyone that entered this country Illegally. Their rights reside in their home country. Which they should be sent back to as soon as they are discovered here. miles Only because a convicted felon is prevented from via law which which may/may not be constitutional. A convicted felon, having served their time should be allowed a firearm under the Constitution. I see nothing in the Constitution that restricts the 2A based upon one's legal record. US law says they can't. One might argue that an illegal immigrant hasn't received any due process at all, compared to the felon and thus - again, has a 2A right absent some other proof/due process he doesn't. US law also says an illegal can't have a gun (ATF form 4473 12c) - the judge says "that's in infringement and illegal. This person can have a gun" - think that out just a little bit. Laws against firearm ownership is an infringement under her ruling and thus - unconstitutional. It opens the floodgates to everything by being so literally applied. 2A - Shall not be infringed. ZERO conditions upon that. Enforce the border - this isn't an issue. You haven't enforced the border, creating this issue and her ruling has opened the door to something her side of the aisle probably doesn't want.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
What does question 12c on form 4473 mean? Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the US? Can an alien acquire a firearm legally or not?
One can not ignore that Judge Coleman could be a DEI hire. The 4473 form that is in opposition to the infringe nention in the 2A? Point one...EVERYTHING the ATF has done contravenes the clear and simple language of the 2A. We can agree on that. But it (the existence of the ATF, the NFA, the GCA of 1968) has never been successfully challenged and decided...so we MUST deal with the law as written and currently on the books...and the law clearly prohibits the acquisition (and by implication, possession) of any firearm by someone unlawfully in the US, 4473, 12c. As originally intended...Judges do not make law. Judges interpret and apply the law, decide guilt and impose sentences when the law is violated. But since Marxism took over the educational system...what we get now in the legal profession is anybodies guess. And this judge has ruled that this law is unconstitutional - which immediately calls into question ALL ATF restrictions on ownership.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2 |
What does question 12c on form 4473 mean? Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the US? Can an alien acquire a firearm legally or not?
One can not ignore that Judge Coleman could be a DEI hire. The 4473 form that is in opposition to the infringe nention in the 2A? Point one...EVERYTHING the ATF has done contravenes the clear and simple language of the 2A. We can agree on that. But it (the existence of the ATF, the NFA, the GCA of 1968) has never been successfully challenged and decided...so we MUST deal with the law as written and currently on the books...and the law clearly prohibits the acquisition (and by implication, possession) of any firearm by someone unlawfully in the US, 4473, 12c. As originally intended...Judges do not make law. Judges interpret and apply the law, decide guilt and impose sentences when the law is violated. But since Marxism took over the educational system...what we get now in the legal profession is anybodies guess. Sounds like a judge just ruled against the existence of an infringement so not seeing why anyone except the anti2A crowd would be upset by that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3 |
We can only hope, Teal...
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
We can only hope, Teal... I'm hoping but still planning on the worst case scenario. I'm just saying this is a bit of a victory because now it's case law on the books by the left showing a VERY literal application of 2A. Hopefully it provides more ammo for FPC/GOA etc.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,110
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,110 |
Enforce the border - this isn't an issue. You haven't enforced the border, creating this issue and her ruling has opened the door to something her side of the aisle probably doesn't want. I look at our rights according to the constitution as pertaining to legal citizens, or some one that has entered this country by other legal means. I think this ruling will lead to them having other rights bestowed on them. I am not saying "take away their guns" I am saying send them home. All other points are moot. miles
Last edited by milespatton; 03/19/24. Reason: spelling
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
Enforce the border - this isn't an issue. You haven't enforced the border, creating this issue and her ruling has opened the door to something her side of the aisle probably doesn't want. I look at our rights according to the constitution as pertaining to legal citizens, or some one that has entered this country by other legal means. I think this ruling will lead to them having other rights bestowed on them. I am not saying "take away their guns" I am saying send them home. All other points are moot. miles Agreed - but I'm talking about what is happening, not what I'd want to happen.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,755 Likes: 8
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,755 Likes: 8 |
I'm just saying this is a bit of a victory A bit pyrrhic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 21,904 Likes: 12
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 21,904 Likes: 12 |
I'm just saying this is a bit of a victory A bit pyrrhic. Indeed... Truthfully... I doubt the Judge has a clue about that.
If you are not actively engaging EVERY enemy you encounter... you are allowing another to fight for you... and that is cowardice... plain and simple.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2 |
I'm just saying this is a bit of a victory A bit pyrrhic. If he was armed that means the antigun law(which infringes on actual citizens) didn't work in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,144 Likes: 3 |
I don't pretend to know anything of legal schmegal workings...but one would assume this would be appealed by .gov in the 7th CCA. And I think in cases of this nature the appeals court can only examine the very narrow question of whether a person in this country illegally, 1. can in fact acquire or possess a firearm
2. did Flores violate any law or rule of ATF (a 10 year felony)
3, did Judge Coleman apply the law fairly to Flores
I don't see a 2A legal challenge here...but I sure hope I'm wrong. My point, the validity of 12c (and the entire structure of ATF laws) is outside the scope of the 7th Circuit.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2 |
Cut to the chase. ![[Linked Image from azquotes.com]](https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-i-don-t-care-about-crime-i-just-want-to-get-the-guns-howard-metzenbaum-58-97-39.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 45,290 Likes: 23
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 45,290 Likes: 23 |
Some people are missing the point. He is an alien that has broken the law and defied the Constitution to invade our border illegally. He has no rights as an American Citizen. The point is - if the 2A covers him - how can it NOT cover you? That's the unintended consequence of this. I like and agree with your theoretical point. But I think there is ample evidence every day in the headlines, that there is a double standard of justice in this country now. Clearly the current laws are enforced differently for white people and people of color. That is reality. I wish I was wrong, I wish arbitrary ATF rules were invalidated by this case, but I'd bet heavily this won't pass muster in the first round of appeals. They may just be one day, until perhaps Congress can write a Constitutional law (might be hard to do now), that only allows citizens protection of their God given rights. Bruen is screwing up, in a mostly good way, a lot of heretofore settled law. This came from a case the judge in the OP used to get to her conclusion (my bold) http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/23/04/221010P.pdfIn Bruen, the Court held that New York’s proper-cause requirement for
carrying a firearm outside one’s home violated the Second Amendment right to keep
and bear arms, as incorporated by the Fourteenth Amendment. 142 S. Ct. at 2156.
Bruen does not address the meaning of “the people,” much less the constitutionality
of criminal firearm statutes like § 922(g)(5)(A). Bruen does, however, clarify how
a court must assess a Second Amendment challenge in general:
[W]hen the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s
conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. To
justify its regulation, the government may not simply posit that the
regulation promotes an important interest. Rather, the government
must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this Nation’s
historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only if a firearm regulation
is consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition may a court conclude
that the individual’s conduct falls outside the Second Amendment’s
unqualified command. If there were no historical regulations regarding the keeping and bearing of arms by aliens, legal or otherwise, at the time of the acceptance of the Bill of Rights, then I can't see how "18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5), " can stand as Constitutional. Matters not if I like it or not, as Teal points out. Under Bruen, it would seem to be the case at the moment. The good part...................perhaps a whole bunch of the presently enforced regulations will be tossed too. Can we please get unlicensed, tax free suppressors and other goodies in this Country again. And among other things, get rid of the damn Roster and weapons/mag bans in this State.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,329 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,329 Likes: 10 |
There is more to this decision than meets the eye, much more.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Last edited by steve4102; 03/19/24.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
Some people are missing the point. He is an alien that has broken the law and defied the Constitution to invade our border illegally. He has no rights as an American Citizen. The point is - if the 2A covers him - how can it NOT cover you? That's the unintended consequence of this. I like and agree with your theoretical point. But I think there is ample evidence every day in the headlines, that there is a double standard of justice in this country now. Clearly the current laws are enforced differently for white people and people of color. That is reality. I wish I was wrong, I wish arbitrary ATF rules were invalidated by this case, but I'd bet heavily this won't pass muster in the first round of appeals. They may just be one day, until perhaps Congress can write a Constitutional law (might be hard to do now), that only allows citizens protection of their God given rights. Bruen is screwing up, in a mostly good way, a lot of heretofore settled law. This came from a case the judge in the OP used to get to her conclusion (my bold) http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/23/04/221010P.pdfIn Bruen, the Court held that New York’s proper-cause requirement for
carrying a firearm outside one’s home violated the Second Amendment right to keep
and bear arms, as incorporated by the Fourteenth Amendment. 142 S. Ct. at 2156.
Bruen does not address the meaning of “the people,” much less the constitutionality
of criminal firearm statutes like § 922(g)(5)(A). Bruen does, however, clarify how
a court must assess a Second Amendment challenge in general:
[W]hen the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s
conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. To
justify its regulation, the government may not simply posit that the
regulation promotes an important interest. Rather, the government
must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this Nation’s
historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only if a firearm regulation
is consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition may a court conclude
that the individual’s conduct falls outside the Second Amendment’s
unqualified command. If there were no historical regulations regarding the keeping and bearing of arms by aliens, legal or otherwise, at the time of the acceptance of the Bill of Rights, then I can't see how "18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5), " can stand as Constitutional. Matters not if I like it or not, as Teal points out. Under Bruen, it would seem to be the case at the moment. The good part...................perhaps a whole bunch of the presently enforced regulations will be tossed too. Can we please get unlicensed, tax free suppressors and other goodies in this Country again. And among other things, get rid of the damn Roster and weapons/mag bans in this State. And that's where I am - she went very literal on application of "shall not be infringed" and now it's on record. That literal application now needs to apply to everything. Setting their 2A nerves on fire as a lefty and restoring our 2A rights as intended. If an illegal isn't covered under this because of their status - then the other Constitutional perks don't apply due to the same status. Miranda, 4th amendment for asking their legal status, voting, etc. Setting their "replacement theory nerves on fire". It becomes a Dutch door that swings 2 ways and they're going to have to make a determination.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,530 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 25,530 Likes: 5 |
When I had my shop I had several green card holders that wanted to purchase a firearm. The ATF gave “clarification” that said it was legal to do so as long as minimum residency restrictions were met. I didn’t like that idea so I simply refused to sell a firearm to a non citizen. I wasn’t comfortable with the idea that I was arming individuals who had not gone to the trouble of swearing their allegiance to the USA and getting their citizenship. I felt, for right or wrong, that I was arming potential enemies of my country so I just decided that I would only sell my inventory to citizens. I was under NO obligation to sell anything I had to anyone for any reason. If someone gave me a gut feeling of unease I would not sell to them and I didn’t care if that upset them. They would often say that they’ll just go down the road to buy a gun and there was nothing I could do about it….
I can’t stop others from making the sale but I can and WILL conduct my business in the safest way possible and I’ll always listen to my intuition.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
---------------------------------------------------------
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,457 Likes: 9
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,457 Likes: 9 |
Some people are missing the point. He is an alien that has broken the law and defied the Constitution to invade our border illegally. He has no rights as an American Citizen. The point is - if the 2A covers him - how can it NOT cover you? That's the unintended consequence of this. Thank you! That is the significance of this most ignorant ruling.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,320 Likes: 2 |
Some people are missing the point. He is an alien that has broken the law and defied the Constitution to invade our border illegally. He has no rights as an American Citizen. The point is - if the 2A covers him - how can it NOT cover you? That's the unintended consequence of this. Thank you! That is the significance of this most ignorant ruling. Ignorant was letting .gov create infringements.
|
|
|
|
|
540 members (22kHornet, 1badf350, 1lesfox, 007FJ, 12344mag, 219 Wasp, 57 invisible),
2,263
guests, and
1,167
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,347
Posts18,506,214
Members74,000
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
