Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots New 22 Hornet brass

I am curious if anyone has ever had any brand of 22 Hornet case that would not chamber easily. I was sighting in a new scope and fireforming some brass today - Hornady, R-P, Win and PP. All, except the PP, chambered normally. I could feel friction feeding the Prvi cases by hand. It was a new barrel cleaned and abiding by the Single Shot Chambering Act of 1899.

I measured the outside diameter of several PP, Win and R-P loaded cases. The Prvi measured .002 larger. This is not a problem. I just never had this occur before. When I got home, I measured a bunch of cases and the PP necks are a couple of thou thicker. Rather than turn them, I will use the PP cases for my K-Hornets.

Such fine lines!

I thought the Single Shot Chambering Act was in 1885.

Glad you got that all sorted out without it creating an issue. Good information to know, thanks.

I don't care for PPU brass for fireforming in my K-Hornet (a Winchester 54). That gun has a very tight chamber although the camming action of the bolt does get them in ok. When the stash of PPU's is used up I'll try to avoid them in future for that purpose. Others of my Hornets don't seem to care, but their chambers are looser.

They might give better accuracy with the tight neck clearance but might give higher pressures too.

I believe the 1885 state legislation was the Low Wall/High Wall Act. Utah was bitterly divided on which rifle would be used to arm the territorial militias. Would it be the 22 WCF or the 45-70?


It seems to be chamber dependent. The new Contender MGM barrel is tight. My Handi and Encore barrels accept Prvi with no problems. I'm talking in thousandths of an inch. I am uncomfortable with having that tight a neck. There is no room to expand and pressure goes up.


That makes sense. It's amazing what a couple of thou can influence.



This is part of the chrono reading from the Prvi loads. Crunching the numbers puts the pressure at approximately 48,500 PSI. Over the suggested limit. This was a 11.0 gr of Lil Gun with a 45 gr Speer bullets. The chamber can easily handle the pressure, but it plays hell on the brass.

Update on the brass for my Contender. Since I started the thread here, I figured to post the conclusion here.

I have two brand new lots of Prvi brass for the Hornet. One of the lots was the culprit. I measured some other Prvi Hornet cases that were purchased a few years ago that have one firing on them. They all measured a bit more than .009 thou. Compared to my other brands, this is one half to one thou thicker than Rem, Win and Hornady. Not a big deal so I outside neck turned the cases so that they matched the Hornady brass.

The Prvi necks are now a hair over 0.008 in. My only concern now is whether they will fully seat in the chamber. I hope the shoulder area isn't too thick. It sure looks like this particular chamber is towards the minimum dimension. A "match" Hornet!

Steve: Thanks for the info. When Hornet brass was almost impossible to get I resorted to PRVI cases. I soon learned that I could not get 13 grains of LilGun into the case behind Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip bullets. 13 grains of LilGun worked fine with Win, Rem, and other cases. Case wight of PRVI was noticeably more. I could get 13 grains into PRVI but I needed to use a long drop tube combined with vibrating the cases. I also shot some factory loaded PRIVI ammunition that shot 3 - 4" groups. I never thought to check wall thickness.

No problem. The Prvi brass is the heaviest for sure. I loaded some Hornet cases yesterday and put 12.4 grains of Lil Gun into the Prvi cases. Mind you, they were 45 gr Speers, not 40 gr. Noslers. The 45 gr. Speers are 0.555 inches long. The load is right at 100% or perhaps a very slight compression. (100.5%)

Water weight of four brands - case weight in brackets).

Hornady - 14.1 gr. (51.2 gr.)
Prvi Partizan - 13.9 gr. (55.2 gr.)
Remington - 14.7 gr.
Winchester - 14.0 gr.

Steve: How did you come up with 48,500 psi for a pressure? If that is with LilGun powder I don't think you can get enough powder in a 22 Hornet or K Hornet to reach that pressure. My experience with LilGun is that it is bulky but a low pressure powder. Hodgdon data shows 45 grain Hornady bullet 12 grains of Lil Gun at 2662 fps at a pressure of 26,500 CUP. 13 grains shows 2787 fps at 31,600 CUP. Lots of variables there (CUP vs. PSI, thick neck, etc.) but 6,900 pressure difference seems a bit much.
When discussing maximum Contender pressure, regarding the 308 Bellm Mike Bellm told me to keep pressure around a maximum of 40,000 in the Contender action. Bellm felt that the G2 action was a bit stronger but J. D. Jones told me the strengthened receiver walls of the G2 action did not help much. The .444 Marlin case head is .514, the 223 is .378 and the 22 Hornet is .350. Since the Contender is chambered in the .223 Remington at about 50,000 psi and .378 case head, if you did get a pressure of 48,500 at .350 you probably did not stretch the frame but that is conjecture on my part.

Hi. 48,500 PSI was the figure I got from plugging in the MV of 2880 fps and the powder load I used into QL. Initially, the computer prediction said 50,000 PSI but I did not fine tune the numbers at that point. 48,500 PSI is safe for the G2 Contender. It handles 55, 000 PSI from the 223 Rem. I was more concerned with the high pressure exerted on the thin brass.

In the Contender I would be more concerned with case head thrust than brass case failure. Regarding that issue, wouldn't a thicker case (which is heavier) not be stronger?

Steve: After you neck turned the thick cases what was the effect on the muzzle velocity? The reason I ask is that Ken Howell and other writers have identified that the chamber neck diameter compared to loaded cartridge neck diameter has an influence on pressure but to my knowledge no one has quantified it. Your experiments might shed some light on this issue. Thanks for the info.

The thicker case should be stronger, although much depends on the composition of the brass.


I will be at the range this week with some loads made with and without turned necks. I'll post what happens. The chronograph will tell the tale.

Man I wish I had time to explore the details of loads like you guys do. Good detective work running down the issues with good engineering. Envious. The brass at a distance looks like 25-35 win shape to me. I have never owned a hornet, seems like the K version developed a solid following. I hope to do things like this in the next couple of years as things slow down a bit.

Thanks.


The only thing that today showed me is that more shots need to be fired. I expected the unturned group to show a higher average velocity. It did not. In fact, it was 28 fps lower, but 10 shots of each is simply not enough from which to draw any conclusions.

I do know that having more concentric necks does make a difference. The 10 turned cases shot a nicer group. This is normal for turned necks with other cartridges.

This was an avg of 10 shots turned and 10 shots unturned. I will continue to shoot these cases, annealing all of them.

Turned necks muzzle velocity - 2780 fps
Group size @ 50 yd - .71 inches

Unturned necks muzzle velocity - 2752 fps
Group size @ 50 yd - .92 inches

Interesting....

Steve thanks for showing the results. I don't know what to think. As an aside, I was told that PPU uses a brass alloy for cartridge cases that is not pure brass. Consequently they are harder. Not being a chemist I cannot confirm this but I do know PPU brass is harder. Do not know if this will have any affect on annealing.

I'll put more shots downrange and see if anything changes. Somehow, I doubt it will. The brass is a bit thicker, but not so much that it needed to be lubed or muscled to get it into the chamber. It's just tight. Hopefully that means I can play with some loads and see if one powder or primer groups smaller than the others.

Not sure what you mean here. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, the ratios of which are tightly held by manufacturers everywhere for strength and ductility reasons. Brass alloy number 360 is the metallurgists name for it, also known colloquially as cartridge brass. Frankly I doubt that PPU deviates from the standard by mixing in other stuff - for added hardness/strength you sacrifice ductility and vice versa. I could be slightly off track though this is how I understand it. A dissertation by a a pro would be welcome.

For Prvi Partizan to have the sales reach that they do, their components have to meet certain standards. Serbia is not a CIP member, but their products undoubtedly conform to this standard because their products are offered for sale all over Europe. Serbia is not a member of the EU either, but their standing is solid within the European community WRT manufacturing. At the risk of angering some here, I believe PPU makes better brass than either Win or Rem. These two companies have nose dived in quality IMO. Unlike SAAMI, CIP standards are a legal requirement. Firearms, ammunition and components must meet the standard to be sold in any of the 14 member countries.

I have sent a request to the factory for some information about their cases. In 2015, they built a new case production facility. I believe that is when they changed headstamps. I don't know how long their products have been imported into the US, but we have been getting these and other European components up here for many years.



Former C.I.P. member state: Yugoslavia (formally dissolved in 1992)

The Permanent International Commission, confirming that the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is no longer in existence, declared during the XXII Plenary Session that the proof marks of the Proof House at Kragujevac, Serbia, would no longer be recognised by the C.I.P. Member States with effect from 30 September 1992.

The Former Yugoslavia & CIP

Good morning. Here is the response I received from PPU. In a nutshell, their brass conforms to the standard set out by CIP and SAAMI.

Dear Mr Redgwell
 
Thank you for contacting us and for trust in PPU components.
 
PPU as ammunition producer with distribution around the world must fulfill given standards for commercial and small arms and carbine ammo.
 
Those standards are C.I.P for Europe and SAAMI for USA. So all ammunition produced by PPU fulfils requirements  given in those two standards. (ammo dimensions, max allowed pressures, etc.).
 
PPU started with “PPU headstamp” mark before 2015, maybe with beginning of 2010-2012...
 
As we said, all ammunition we produce (bullets, cases, cartridges), we producing to fulfil dimension requirements given by C.I.P and SAAMI standards.
 
The majority  of our brass cases are made of CuZn30 (CW505L, C26000) and CuZn28 ( CW504L,C25600 ).
 
If you have any more questions, ask us.
 
Best regards
R & D Project design engineer

Thanks for the report Steve. That is a nice reply from PPU.

It was great to hear back from them. PPU was helpful and answered all my questions.

A couple of years ago, I talked on the phone with, and sent information to Winchester about some problems I had with their brass. Customer service answered, but I got the brush off after I forwarded some pictures. They told me they weren't forwarding them to QC or anyone responsible for production. They offered to replace the cases, but I didn't send more pictures or write them for that reason. I wanted to communicate what I found after opening a package of their brass.

I started with 22H PPU brass straight out of the bag. It looked pretty good so instead of FL sizing it I just proceeded to prime, drop powder and seat a few bullets. (I think I had Lapua brass on the brain). I couldn't get a bullet to seat without bulging. After a few head scratches I decided to FL size the brass and try again. That worked without an issue. So, my lesson learned was to FL size the 22H PPU brassbrass first with .

BTW, 13.0 grains of Li'l Gun with a 30 Barnes VG and a 450 primer measured .8 inches, 3 shot group. 3136 FPS Avg. Not a bad start.

PPU loads their 22Hornets with .2225" bullets, so yes, resize.

Steve,

Thanks for the research on PPU!

I'm fortunate to have a pretty good stock of PPU 22H ammo. Picked it up when I couldn't find brass in 2021. I had just gotten into the 22H thing.

Cases seem robust. I have had some primer flow issues on a Savage 219b in 22H though with some factory PPU, which surprised me for I've not experienced that before with this rifle. So suspect the factory primers. I have a spare 22H barrel for an early 219 that I need to see if I get that same issue. No issues with that older 219 with 30-30. Both rifles have small rifle firing pins. Thus suspect the primers.

Anyway, should be resolved when I reload.

Thanks for the kind words. Speaking personally, I like the PPU and Hornady cases. These days I suppose, whatever you can get is best.