Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns The 38 thread

We have a 32 and a 44 thread and they’re both great with lots of good info and discussion. I guess we should have a 38 thread to go with them.

I think the 38 special is my favorite handgun cartridge of all time. Bill Jordan claimed it was about all the average person could hope to master without real fanatical dedication to the larger heavier recoiling rounds and I think there’s a lot of truth to that.



While I won’t claim to have mastered it, I am actively working at it. I try to shoot at least 200-300 a week and oftentimes more. I spent a few hours earlier today casting and sizing about 500 wadcutters. A 4 cavity H&G mold along with a Star sizer have probably done more to improve my shooting than any other accessories, makes it nice when you can make a bunch of bullets quickly. They shoot very well and stay stable to at least the 50 yard line with a load of 3.5gr of W231.

I also cast and sized a couple hundred bullets from an old Cramer mold I’ve had for several years. It’s a wonderfully built 2 cavity and casts really easy. It makes what Cramer used to claim was a SWC but I would say it’s more like a RN with a tiny flat on the nose and a little bitty front driving band. Whatever it should be called it is absolutely the most accurate 38 bullet for long range shooting I have ever used. Propelled by 5.5 grains of Power Pistol it’s pretty easy to get them to land on a 12” plate at 150 yards or further.

I really enjoy a good 38. My two favorites are a 2" model 15 and a 6" Model 14 -3 . Shoot a lot of powder coated lead 125s over 4 gr of HP-38 . Easy shooting load and a pound of powder goes a long way.

Great thread! Can't wait to see where it goes.


Okie John

I shot almost exclusively .38 Special in handguns throughout the 1980s. It's an old standby that doesn't often get enough credit.

I have 38s in J, K, & N frames in 2”, 4”, and 6.5” barrel lengths. I’ve gotten the bug lately and have been on the scout for a Colt Officers Model Match or Target.

Strangely one of if not the most accurate 38 shooters I own is a beaten and battered 4 5/8” 357 Blackhawk I have $75 in. It shoots 38s as well as any K38 I’ve ever had and points like a wand for me.

I like the 38Spl. I think it is kind of underappreciated today, by the younger generations of shooters. I've carried it as a duty round on embassy guard duty way back when, in the 1980s and 1990s. So it will always have a place in my inventory, part sentimental, part practical.

I have a couple 357 revolvers, a 3" Ruger LCRx, and a 4" Ruger Security Six. My only true 38 Special revolver is this Ruger LCRx,

The Kid: I cut my "pistol teeth" in the late 1960's with an issued Smith & Wesson Model 10 in 38 Special - and some time later once I qualified "Expert" with that pistol I was allowed to request an issued Smith & Wesson Model 15 K-38 Combat Masterpiece with 4" barrel.
I fell in love with THAT Model 15 pistol.
It eventually even shot "Super-Vel" ammunition quite well.
I have been buying, trading and shooting revolvers in 38 Special ever since, and I own a BUNCH of them today.
Over the years all the folks and young people I have "instructed" in pistol shooting always included revolvers in 38 Special during my tutoring.
The VarmintWife for example shoots my Smith & Wesson Model 66 (with 6" barrel) so VERY well (with 38 wadcutter/target loads) that I was/am impressed.
And I have been around a LOT of pistol shooters in the last half century plus!
I say long live the 38 Special revolvers.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The 38 special and 44 mag are absolutely my two fav handgun cartridges. Fantastic cartridge to cast and hand load for. I have a bucket full of Jframes, and many k frames. Mild to wild it’s an awesome cartridge.

My first:

I grew up with .22LR, .38, .357 and .45 ACP pistols. Dad always had some working guns around. A career in LE started back when duty-issue guns were round, not square. I don't shoot revolvers nearly as much as I used to but I do keep my hand in some double-action shooting once in a while. My two favorite pure .38s are my old M15 and my newer no-lock Airweight 642. I have a couple of other pure .38s. A M64 3" round butt and an old M38 Airweight Bodyguard are in the mix but good pictures can't be found for some reason. The M64 I have given to my mother for her house gun.

That's nice!

That’s a slick looking M15. Those are pretty tough to beat for an around the ranch revolver. Especially if you’re like I am and prone to random plinking breaks when out on the place.

I wish I’d have bought a handful of them back when they were available as police trade ins for a few hundred bucks.

I may pick up a beater M14 to cut to 4” or 5” and make a heavy barrel M15 out of. Some agency back in the revolver days ordered just such but they’re of course collectible and expensive. No reason I couldn’t whip one up.

I like 38 specials a lot. Great cartridge, inexpensive to shoot, especially if you reload. Some classics. Minimal recoil, very accurate what’s not to like.
A S&W M&P made in 1915 and a M10-5 made in 1976.

That's when I got mine.

Classy, really like that.

I didn't hesitate to crow when I scored this 4 screw last year. Full circle I guess, as I cut my revolver teeth shooting a couple hundred wad cutters a week for several years.

To me, the 38 double action revolver is a natural stepping stone in learning handgun skills and,,,,, they're just plain fun to shoot.

Great thread!

Love the .38 Special and it is a very popular round for sure. I have used it extensively in the field, shooting big desert Jacks as well as some ground squirrels.

A good wadcutter (or sometimes SWC) makes short work of a jackrabbit.

My only pure .38 is a nickel Model 10-5 I got about a year or so ago with original box, paperwork and accessories. Haven't ever shot it. Lately I've been thinking more and more that I'd like a couple of .38's to play with, maybe another 10 and a 60 to carry sometimes.

I have an old .357 Flattop that I have used to hammer the Jacks a time or to as well, using .38 WCs and SWCs.







Dropped one or two with a J Frame two. That took some real concentration, as it is a tough gun to hunt with for sure!

Those new Ultimate Carry J Frames are NICE! I know I love my 432 in .32 H&R.

It's not much to look at and has the lock but this 642 is with me most days. Spent a ton of time in fishing tackle bags , pockets, shoved in a vehicle console while driving and looks the part. Gets carried as a backup occasionally sometimes the primary gun. One .38 I'll never be without

Got a lot of history with the .38SPL, going back more than 60 years, now. I’m sure stuck on it, still:

Embassy Duty in El Salvador, 1984. Getting some practice in at an informal shooting range.

In the holster is my duty revolver, a S&W Model 10, 4" with round butt and skinny barrel. Our duty ammo was Federal Nyclad 125gr hollow point, it was the new thing about that time.

what's the story on the finish of that revolver?

I have three straight .38s. My 642 pocket gun. A model 12-2 that I had set up as my EDC that I used until I got the 642. And last but not least, a model 15-2 made in 1963. My mom bought it for my dad when he became a police officer. He carried it his whole career as a full time and later reserve officer. I carried it as my first duty gun.

Love the .38 Special. It's tied with the .22 LR as my favorite handgun round.

As age creeps up I'm becoming a real recoil wimp. Sold off the .45's and .44's and don't really like to shoot full power 357's much anymore, either. Replaced the big bores sold off with .38's to the point that they now represent the largest portion of my inventory.

You can find or create loads from mild to wild and even the wild ones don't kick much at all. Lots and lots and lots of suitable components available and an accurate load can be worked up with pretty much any combination of them.

Plus, brass lasts forever. I have a batch of Winchester .38 Special cases that just went through their 27th firing. Started with 200 cases and lost 12 to neck splits starting around the 20th firing so down to 188. Given the current attrition rate that batch should still last a good long time. Got another batch of Winchesters on their 16th firing, they're youngsters in comparison.


My only problem is what to do with the 1000 brand new Starline cases sitting on the shelf. Guess I'll need to mention them in my will...

Brass life is one of the great things about standard pressure handgun ammo Jim. I too have some mixed 38 brass, some as old as 1940s era WW Midrange wadcutter brass, that I have loaded more than 20 times. 95 percent of it was used when I got it and there’s no telling how many loading some of it has seen.

I have lost enough to splits in the mouth that I need to get some new replacements. Been keeping an eye on the classifieds lately waiting for some to come up.

When I carry my Python around the ranch or out in the sticks, I'm almost always loaded with .38 specials. Most things I encounter are smaller predators, and two legged varmints. So a .38 Special is kinda perfect for me out here in the desert.

When the crappie start biting it generally means the snakes are coming out about the same time around here. I’ve sunk a bunch of them that swam a little too close to the boat with the 2” M15 I’m carrying in this picture. Many more went to Davy Jones’ locker via a SWC launched from my 38/44 OD.

Nickel 15. Nice.

LOL. Don't you hate that? I've got buckets full of once fired .38 Special brass, but keep using the same bag of three hundred over and over.

I don't own a .38 but that is about all I shoot in my .357 pistols. Must have 4 or 5. It and the .44 spl are my favorite pistol rounds. I guess along with the .22. Great thread.

S&W Model 15-4






S&W Model 14-3

I went to the ranch for a little bit when it cleared off this evening for some DA shooting. I recently watched an old interview with John Prine back when he was king of the PPC world. Being a self taught handgun shooter I gathered several tips on technique that he mentioned and my DA shooting has markedly improved. Still have to get a flyer in every cylinder full it seems but I’m getting better.

All these were shot at 10 yards offhand DA. All the 38s were with a 158 wadcutter over 3.5gr of W231.

LD those are some nice S&Ws. If you could loan them to me for a couple decades I’d try my best to wear them out.

[quote=Mackay_Sagebrush]I have an old .357 Flattop that I have used to hammer the Jacks a time or to as well, using .38 WCs and SWCs.







Yours is a bit rougher than mine Mackay. Mine’s a 1978 production New Model with some pitting down the left side of the barrel and a stripe down the cylinder where it was lined up with the barrel at the time. Some guy left it under the seat of his pickup and it rusted into the carpet, still had fibers stuck on it when I got it. Has a big cylinder gap and lots of play but shoots way too good to monkey with it. I’d buy ten more in the same shape for what I have for it.

Nice 14-3 I've got one in the safe I need to dig out

Nice looking family.

10-7
A line up
357 flattop with a 9mm cylinder. My thought is to ream out the 9mm to 38, can be done?
One of two 64-5s
60-7 and 36-7

I just picked up a model 15 with 4” barrel in Tulsa. I have a pre-15 my uncle carried as a deputy sheriff for L.A. county. He had sent the revolver back to S&W for going through and re-bluing before he retired in the 80’s. I had a couple model 10’s - police trade ins. Some how my sons have them now.
I think a model 15 is the best for the $’s.

Yes, but cylinder headspace may also need adjusted as well.

Any decent Smith should be able to fix you up.

Nice pile of 38s!

A man can't have too many 38'

I tend to think the S&W M15 is the perfect .38 Special revolver. It is S&W at their best.

I couldn't have said it any better. A pair of 15-3s. They look like they're touching, but I took the photo at just the wrong angle I guess.

Have a 15 (don't remember which -#) and a Detective Special (it was my Grandad's).
I never thought I'd enjoy a .38 as much as I do.

I was shocked to discover that while my seemingly tame handloads (lee 158 RF over Unique or Tru Blue) were running around 830-850 out of 4" '15, some 90's vintage (stored inside) Winchester 158 RN factory ammo, that was very consistent and very accurate, was clocking a whopping 620fps out of the same pistol. Small wonder the .38 had a lackluster reputation as a stopper.

I need a steel J-frame.......and a mod. 14.....and a 10......

Haha, Kid. I would trust you to give your best effort. 😜

Great report, Kid. And some awesome revolvers.

The .38 Special is better than ever in strong modern guns with loads using modern components. Everything from 148 gr wadcutters at 700 fps to 158 gr SWCs at 1200 fps. There is little that I do with a handgun that I can’t accomplish with a variety of .38 handguns and loads.

Expat

That last load is stepping on the heels of .357 Magnum. Fine in a Colt Official Police or an S&W Outdoorsman/Heavy Duty, but I don't imagine it's a good idea in a .38 Special chambered S&W K-Frame. Your mileage may vary, though.

Underwood advertises this one at 1250 fps.

https://underwoodammo.com/38-special-p-158-grain-hard-cast-keith/

Still wouldn't use it in any .38 Special-chambered revolver less robust than a Colt Official Police, or a medium frame Ruger, like a .38 Special-chambered Speed or Security Six.

Tons of K frames were chambered in 357 Magnum. It’s specd at 35kpsi. These and other +p+ 38 loads generate around 23-25k.

Yes wear will be accelerated somewhat, but almost no one will shoot enough of that load to make a difference.

Of course, but didn't they treat the steel differently for those?

In the cylinder; they also used the 357 cylinder in the 547.

The Underwood ammo still operates at under 30,000 psi, probably in the 27/28 psi range.

I carried a Ruger Police Service Six as a duty weapon from 1985-1990. I wasn’t crazy about the issued ammo (Winchester 110 grain +P+ Treasury Department Load). I was very confident with my ability to shoot that revolver. I bought it when we transitioned to S&W 4506 pistols. I also have a 3” heavy barrel model 60, a 1 7/8” 649, and an Airweight 642. When I was an active LEO we used to say “wheel guns for wheel men”!

Ron

They made .357's in K frames, too. Remember?

Yes, but they took metallurgic measures to sure them up against the higher pressures vs the same frame-sized guns chambered in .38 Special.

I'm not saying the guns will explode. I'm just saying 158 grain 1,200 fps loads are asking a lot of a K-Frame .38 Special revolver. It's nearly making a Magnum of it. Like I said, the Colt Official Police .38 is more than up to it, since Colt approved the use of .38-44 loads in them back in the day, which is basically what the load is that we're talking about.

"38-44 is a cartridge designation but also is a term for the revolver intended to use the new loading, which could reach 1,125 fps with a 158-grain bullet—but at the cost of serious wear and tear on standard revolvers."

- Handguns Magazine

I've got a dollar that says the metallurgy in a K frame Model 19 isn't all that different if at all from a Model 14 or any other K frame .38 Special.

I do love a good .38 Special.

Anyone have a Colt Officers Match, Target, Special, et al? I’m leaning hard towards grabbing a 40s production 38 Heavy barrel. Have never owned one but they look like a fun and inexpensive, relatively, way to dip into the Colt pool.

Part of me wants one of the hideous Officers Model Specials for whatever reason. They had better shoot because they’re nothing to look at.

I've had both a pre war and a 50's 5th model.

They shoot, you won't be disappointed in either. The pre models are cone cut specifically steep for wadcutters.

Need to find another 5th model Officers Model Match. Pissed I sold it for other stuff.

I bailed on a 5th model at auction a couple weeks ago when it got too rich for me. Should have probably stuck with it for another hundred to see what happened.

I assume even with the forcing cone cut for wadcutters they’ll probably shoot a RN or SWC acceptably well?

All but the 1st models based on the Army special use the same lockwork, correct? I’ve never been a big time Colt mechanic, never saw the volume of them I did S&Ws, but I do know my way around one to some degree.

A Shooting Master would be neat to go with my N frame 38s but they’re more than I want to spend unless I found a deal.

The Officer's Model Targets (pre-war) like sharp shouldered designs better than RN, like a WC and SWC and the twist is a bit steeper than Smiths for stabilizing them a little farther out. Of course a round nose with a shoulder of some kind are all over, but the pre-war stuff were designed for slow fire wadcutter work.

Yes, E and I model lock work are "basically" the same, but there are differences even in the frames and parts and the most drastic changes are somewhere in the 20's as far as I can tell, so I tend to avoid anything needing work from that era or earlier because while they do make newly manufactured parts that can be fitted to the standardized stuff, the really old stuff just wasn't "standard" like the 30's and after..

The fifth models were/are awesome, accurate guns with modern click adjustable sights. I kept the 5th Model 22. It shoots like a rifle.
The 38 Colt I had shot better than the two 14's and 2 15's in my pic, but funds wound up chasing my current 32 fetish.
And being a manly man, the Smiths didn't have the bluing wear the Colt had, so my sense of fashion helped its departure.

The .38 is all I plan on shooting in my 3 inch king Cobra. The magnums are for the 6 inch version and the Henry X.

I’d love a Model 64 tapered barrel.

I have a 64 in the FBI configuration, i.e., three inch bull barrel and round butt frame. Great carry gun, IWB.

Anybody know when they started putting heavy barrels on the Model 15?

The Standard Catalog specifically mentions when the 4" Model 64 went from a tapered to a heavy barrel but nothing is mentioned about the Model 15. My M15-2 from the early 60's has the tapered barrel and narrow rib but a 15-7 from 1995 has a heavy barrel (no taper) and wide rib, basically it looks like a 4" Model 14. A late production Model 67-5 also has a heavy barrel.

Not that the 15-7 and 67-5 are boat anchors but one of the big draws of a 4" K-frame .38 is sitting squarely in the Goldilocks zone - not too heavy, not too light but just right.

Very true. The K frame is the K frame. Change out barrels, cylinders and chambers, add some trigger and hammer opt ions etc but metallurgically same animal.

Hard to beat a Colt Diamondback in 38 Special. Butter smooth and accurate.

Jim,

My 15-2 in the picture is a wide rib, bull barrel, unlike yours.

Can't help on the whens and where's, but I think you could still order about any Smith you desired in 38 or 357 into the 70's.
Other cartridges and frames, not so much.

LEO held sway with the K frame during that period, but I've never seen a 15 or 19 with a Patridge front sight, but I believe they were available.

I wonder if all their owners all lost the drop clearing leather....

It's a Police Positive Special dolled up to look like a Python.

And a Python is a Trooper/357 dolled up to look like a Python. Is that what we're getting at? And yes, contrary to popular belief Pythons in the hands of Hartfords most experienced didn't make them any better or worse than what they made on the production line.
If you've ever been inside a Colt DA of old the parts are fitted to work first in unison without any hiccups. That alone requires some finesse, otherwise the actions would still be used today with CNC or other machining. Any amount of polishing after that may or may not produce a cleaner action. Or you can polish all the points of index and declare them "match grade" by the most experienced armorers, but that doesn't always necessarily make them so.
Ive had a 1960 Trooper that was better than the Python and so have 5 Officer's models, pre and post war, both for action and accuracy. Granted that's one Python for six others, but that's my point.

I've had a 38 Diamondback and find its better in 22 and would have been excellent in 32. More metal, on average, always seems to make more accuracy whether handguns or long guns.

I'll take my two 38/44's to hit with any day of the week. The five incher hits better for all who have fired it over the 8 inch 14 and six inch single action 14, even with the same loads. Noise, racket and recoil, even with the 38, shows up on paper.

True of any machine with levers and fulcrums, geometry is more important than a mirror finish on interfacing parts.

Are your 38/44s long or short action guns HawkI? I have both and maybe one of the few who do or at least will admit to preferring the short action lockwork. Shot side by side I swear I can discern a difference in lock time. An early post war K38 with the fishhook or speed hammer may have been the ultimate to come through my hands insofar as having a great action right out of the box.

My 50’s production Outdoorsman is like your 5” you described, if I need to hit something that’s the gun I’m most likely to do it with. Aside from the depth of the chambers and lack of checkering it is every bit the equal of the flagship 357/pre27 of the same era.

A 158 @1200 isn’t a load for shooting all the time. At least not by me. But if a newer 15/67 is what you have, that load might not be a bad thing to have when you are out in black bear country.

Expat

All three 38/44 Outdoorsmans I'm aquainted with are post war short actions, but all three are pre-models. I think the only 23 I've ever seen was on Gunboker. All three are serialed in the time frame Smith came out with the "U-type" spring that actuated both hammer and trigger return, but none had the U spring, which turned out to be not so hot, but I thought having one would be interesting.
The 38/44 Heavy Duty is pre-war long action and yes, you can tell. It also has the pre-war nubbin of a hammer as well, which is standard in the older long action guns.

The later Smiths are even shorter for throw; a buddy has a 629 DX that's pretty slick if you like the short actions and most of the non-hammer mounted pin guns are like that.

40's vintage Officer's Model Target and late-40's and upward Officer's Model Match are excellent revolvers but for my money please make it a pre-war Officer's Model Target heavy barrel. There's a reason those Colts dominated the pre-war bullseye game, based on their nonpareil workmanship and their attention to throating/forcing cone/rifling dimensions aimed at long sharp shouldered bullets as Hawk I pointed out. The heavy barrel versions provide wonderful slightly weight forward balance for target work.

The sight adjusting is a little awkward for modern shooters due to elevation being adjusted via the front sight blade and rear sight adjustment only accommodating windage. (And for Pete's sake learn the correct sequence for loosening/tightening the two front sight screws, and keep them tight - replacement screws are scarce and most assuredly not the correct thread pitch. Ask me how I know. There is but one guy in the country who's made it a crusade to manufacture and sell the correct screws, the aftermarket screws in general from "normal" supply houses are .010" too small diameter even though both are nominally the same thread pitch.)

This is good info, thank you.

I have the hots for one of the Officers Models of late and I don’t know a lot about them. I’ve been doing some heavy reading over on the Colt forum and it looks like all of them are great, but like HawkI said it may be best to stay away from the earliest production for a regular user.

I’m sure price will ultimately dictate what I end up with but given my choices I’d prefer a Heavy Barrel or the silly looking Special.

The 2nd and 3rd generation guns take the cake for looks and finish work. But the homely Special calls to me for some reason. Sort of like the High Standard “Space gun” 22s with all the wild weights, wings, and compensators. They scream 1950s cutting edge bullseye gun.

Only have one Colt .38, a 5th generation Officers Model Match made in either 1964 or 67, Colt isn't specific on their serial number lookup.

Got it on gunbroker about two years ago, price was in the $600 range which was downright cheap compared to any Snake gun and really most S&W's during that time frame. Metal finish was around 95-96% and it had the original box which is still in decent shape. Apparently the original owner(s) had been very enthusiastic with a cleaning rod so I had the barrel shortened by a .1" and recrowned. It was a "good" shooter but the new crown restored it to a great shooter.

Grew up on Smiths and always thought the original Colt Troopers, Official Police and 357 models looked clunky in comparison, but after actually owning one and handling it there is definitely a je ne sais quoi to a Colt. The action is lighter, everything goes snick snick when you open and close the cylinder or cock the hammer.


These days there is an ongoing battle between my heart and my eyes. My heart says to get a nice pre-war Colt but my eyes say if you can't mount a red dot sight on it then don't bother. The war isn't over by a long shot so who knows...

I'd have to say my favorite Colt DA revolver of all time is the pre-War Officers Model Target. No they don't have the DA of a S&W, but they're exceptionally well made, extremely accurate and they fit my larger mitt better than a K frame S&W.

S&W had to work pretty hard in the post-war period to win over the rank-and-file bullseye shooters. The result was the K-38, and after that it was pretty much a tossup between the two.

I picked the gun up and it was pretty heavily pitted. It originally had a 6.5" barrel. I was in Boise and met up with a John Taffin and a mutual friend for a gunshow. I mentioned that I was looking for a shorter barrel and a grip frame, as the one it wore had some fancy grips on it. John said stop by the house. So after the show, I went to his house and he gave me a new grip frame for the gun (the one it is wearing now) and showed me how to swap frames. He also had a spare shorter barrel for the gun that he gave me. I had a smith put the shorter barrel on. I call this my "Taffin" gun.

Kid,

Yours looks great. They are a pretty handy sized gun and good for a general purpose outdoors gun. Not much they won't digest, and since the finish is already worn you don't have to worry about water and mud and stuff. That makes them pretty practical to me.

I just put a BUNCH of rounds through my old Model 15 Combat Masterpiece the other day.





Started with some .38 Short Colts.



shot them in the upper left corner.

Those little guys in a K Frame are like shooting .22mags lol.




Then I shot a bunch of poly coated 148 grain poly coated wadcutters.

Love the wadcutters in the K Frame. That is a perfect pairing.




Spent a bunch of time at 7 and 10 yard shooting quick double action. The Model 15 makes getting good hits with the poly wadcutters fairly smooth.

Some may find this interesting.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...l-police-38-special.cfm?gun_id=102591415

A 4th model headed my way.

Couldn't help it....

You’re not helping me out here. I’m shopping and trying to be patient while I wait for a deal.

Show us a pic when it arrives.

Will do.


I was not patient and did not wait for a deal, but I think I did alright.

Had this one in my watch list, but wasn't paying attention to end date. Oh well.

Colt Officer's Model Match - 1961

I saw that one too LD and wondered where it would go. I bid on the Officers Model Special with the funky Sile target grips but didn’t pursue it very far. I think it went to $412 but had been reblued and the impossible to find rear sight had been filed on. I’ll find a nicer one.

Saw that one too, Kid. But, it just didn't appeal to my taste. Lol.

I don't have the appetite for projects now as much as I did when I was younger.