Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Gunsmith Rant

I most likely missed the golden age of Gunsmiths doing actual Gunsmithing, given my relatively young age.

BUT, I live in a heavily populated area, in a reasonably gun-friendly location... and for the life of me, I CAN NOT find gunsmiths willing to do anything more than put glocks, or ARs or some other 'lego kit' gun together.

Took me almost 2 years to find one that was willing to even try and repair a hammer and trigger for my H&R 195 pistol. And only because he could do it by hand mostly and didn't need to rely on his clapped out milling machine. Which, takes me to the second issue of every gunsmith having clapped out machines that can't hold tolerances - or super small lathes that barely fit tiny barrels. Yes I know machines are expensive.

I understand that the smithing part of gunsmithing is hard, not everyone wants to spend all day checkering stocks, reprofiling old parts/making new ones, or relining barrels.... but the sheer number of what I consider to be incompetent gunsmiths who just assemble modern plug-n-play firearms, and wont touch anything that requires even small amounts of custom work is maddening to me. I have reached out to every 'gunsmith' I can find listed, or have been refereed to locally. Somewhere around thirty to forty.


Still looking to get some parts reblued, still looking to get four holes indexed and drilled properly, still looking for barrel fluting....

So, thankfully I know a good machinist for the last two.

Checkering is gonna be a whole new level of searching, and most likely not gonna be local I bet...

The woods are full of them.

Wish I was in the woods....

I'm glad i learned from some good ones

Time is money. If you have the money, someone will do it. I'm sure there are some out there yet, but they gotta eat and feed family. Quick, easy bucks are the order of the day anymore. Inflation is under 7 % you know. (Cough!)

You can't pay me enough to hand-checker a stock anymore - even if I was decent at it, which I am not. Anymore, if I am re-finishing one of my stocks (only person I'll work for!), I just take the checkering off, unless it's in very good shape. Slimmer stocks work for me anyway!

It's a fuggin handle on a fuggin tool.

YMMV- and you are welcome to it. Good luck on your quest.

Where are you located?

It's frustrating.

Too bad Toyota doesn't make guns.

then the actions would rust out

Can't help with the gunsmith situation, but research Sean
Rowland for the checkering. His stock building and checkering skills are perfection.
He can be found on Facebook. His business is called Stockworks.

The woods I'm speaking of are the woods of the gunsmiths you're speaking of.

I don't know where you are, but I can recommend two good ones: Robert Parker, Parker Arms in Wheat Ridge Colorado and Pete Hubbard, Homeland Gunsmithing in Kiowa Colorado.

minnesota

I've seen many shingles nailed on doors that read, " I r a gunsmiff". You have to sift through them to find the good ones. State your location and whether you're willing to ship. We can help you find the good ones.

Thanks, will do.

Jim Kobe, enough said. 😉

Ahlman's in Morristown does very good work including very nice bluing and actual real gunsmithing.

https://ahlmans.com/gunsmithing.html

Sounds familiar. In my neck of the woods 2 outstanding gunsmiths within a 1/2 hour of me have retired. The nerve of some people...

The closest gunsmith that I trust is now 4 hours away and he's world class. Problem is, he'll be retiring soon as well. Crap.

Generally one must either do everything that comes in decently enough to get it working and look passable, and do it fast.

Or specialize in one area and do it very well. Accuracy guys usually fit this category.

Or finally, have a wife who is a doctor or lawyer or real estate magnate, do outstanding artistic level work, get it done when you get it done, and cater to the big money crowd after you’ve made a name for yourself when someone of note discovers your work.

Making a living as a general gunsmith isn’t easy. There’s always some guy with no tools or machinery coming in wanting you to do something quick and cheap and he always says the same thing when you quote him a price. “How much? All you have to do is…..”.
That or people want PeePaw’s cheap 22 or shotgun fixed for nearly free.

one hour from my place near a main hi-way near ST. Cloud,MN. airport there is a very fine younger gunsmith called Stu`s Gunsmithing .one of the finest small shop machinist Greg Walstrom is 15 Minutes from me who does plenty building of new bench rest rifles and installing ,chambering ,machining new barrels on rifles . i feel very fortunate to have these 2 professionals so close. its part of the reason i have so many newer barrels on my rifles.

We had very fine gunsmith here, but he got some investors and started a big indoor shooting facility, plus selling firearm and having a squad of gunsmiths. Now he doesn't' touch a firearm .

Their work is not bad, but nothing to brag about and if you take a firearm in to only have them look at it, it cost $75 at least and you never get to talk to the guy that is doing the work .

He's close enough. I'll check in with him in a bit .

I'm aware of ahlmans, just haven't found the time to do the hour+ drive. Then I'd have to do it again to pick up my items.

Not very many gun smiths are willing to mess with milsurp firearms anymore. Springfields, Mausers, Arisakas, etc

Listen to Jim even if he doesn't do your work. He knows his trade.

I wrote this article for a recent issue of Rifle Loony News, the on-line magazine/newsletter my wife Eileen and I publish quarterly on www.riflesandrecipes.com:

WHERE HAVE ALL THE GUNSMITHS GONE?

We moved to our small town in southwestern Montana in 1990, and it didn’t long for me to discover a sporting goods store 32 miles away in Helena, the state capital, that had just about everything I wanted or needed, including a large selection of both new and used firearms, a pretty good handloading department, and a real gunsmithing shop. It was staffed by two very experienced smiths, Arnold and Ed, who did an excellent job on everything we brought them, including the old German combination gun Eileen purchased at a gun show in Wisdom, Montana.

The gun had an engraved, spring-loaded steel trapdoor on the underside of the buttstock, covering the holes for four of its 9x72R rifle cartridges—but the trapdoor was kinda loose. Arnold’s eyes lit up as soon as Eileen took it out of the case—his last name is Erhardt, a German name—and admired it for a few minutes after we explained what needed to be done. He said it would be a pleasure to work on such a fine firearm, and did the job promptly and “affordably.”

Both Arnold and Ed retired about a decade ago, though Arnold came back from time to time to help the young guy hired to replace them, Tyler Hansen—a graduate of Trinidad State College’s esteemed gunsmithing school in Colorado, which will be 100 years old in 2025. Arnold showed Tyler some “old gunsmith tricks” for doing several jobs, including an easier way to fit recoil pads.

However, soon Tyler got too busy to finish every job reasonably quickly—and many performed by a general gunsmith need to be done quickly, such as adjusting, fixing or replacing triggers just before fall hunting seasons starts, when many hunters take their guns to the range for sight-in and practice. So Capital hired another gunsmith, a younger Trinidad State graduate named Jordan. He worked there for a couple of years before leaving a few months ago to take a higher-paying job in a local factory.

Which is the same reason many younger gunsmiths disappear: With rare exceptions, it doesn’t pay very well. Plus, if they open their own shop, they don’t get any “benefits package,” as they might when working for a sporting goods store or an established gunsmith.

I know Charlie Sisk very well, partly because he’s done a lot of work for me over the past quarter-century or so, and partly because we’ve also hunted together considerably. He opened his first gunsmithing shop in a Houston suburb, and early on drove 18-wheelers on weekends to make ends meet. Later he worked for one month out of each year as a machinist in one of the many Houston factories—which also paid for his health insurance for the year.

I recently talked to Charlie about the decrease in the number of general gunsmiths, and he said there were several reasons. First is the relatively low pay, of course, but if a young gunsmith sets up his own shop he also has to spend considerable money for tooling. A suitable lathe is a significant expense in itself, but chambering reamers aren’t cheap—and with all the recent new rifle cartridges, the need is accelerating. Tyler Hansen says one great thing about working for Capital Sports is the collection of chambering reamers the shop collected over the years, one of which Tyler used to rechamber a 7mm-08 of mine to .284 Winchester.

Charlie says that make a decent living today he has to charge $150 an hour, even for non-machining work like Cerakoting a barreled action—and many people simply won’t pay that much. This is partly due to the increasing cost of liability insurance—and also the fact that gunsmiths like who, like Charlie, mostly build custom rifles, have to add the 11% Federal excise tax established as part of the National Firearms Act of 1937. (The funds are distributed to the states for various conservation programs.) While 11% doesn’t amount to much on a $700 factory rifle, it’s a significant chunk to add to the price of a custom rifle.

Because of these expenses, many gunsmiths I’ve known who owned their shop couldn’t afford to hire any help—so they rarely get a day off, unless they’re ill or injured, which also reduces profits. All of which is also why some gunsmiths can stay in business even if they’re not particularly competent.

A recent thread in the “Gunsmithing” forum of 24hourcampfire.com started when a guy asked for recommendations for a gunsmith in a mid-sized Western city. The thread went on and on, partly because when somebody did make a recommendation, other people claimed that smith had botched a job on one of their guns. Eventually somebody did recommend a gunsmith who wasn’t challenged by any of the others—but his shop’s an hour’s drive from the city.

Some general repair gunsmiths also get pretty bored with the work, the reason they turn to making custom guns—though the demand for “old-fashioned” custom rifles, with hardwood stock on classic controlled-feed actions like the 1898 Mauser and pre-’64 Model 70 Winchester, has been dropping for years. It was largely fueled by Baby Boomers who grew up around such rifles, but today there are far more shops like Charlie Sisk’s, specializing in “modern” rifles, often based on push-feed actions, with stainless barrels and synthetic stocks.

While classic custom rifles were expected to be accurate as well as beautiful, there’s even more emphasis on accuracy these days, partly due to the long-range hunting trend. I’ve owned a number of modern custom rifles, and tested quite a few others for reviews in various magazines. They do tend to be very accurate—but so are some of today’s factory rifles, including inexpensive models. A good example is one of the dozen Ruger American Rifles I’ve owned, a 6.5 Creedmoor Predator which grouped as well as any custom 6.5 Creedmoor I’ve ever owned or borrowed.

Charlie Sisk mentioned those factory rifles (which he calls “throw-away rifles”) as part of the reason for tougher times for gunsmiths. While some rifle loonies apparently have enough money to constantly order new “builds” from various smiths, others are quite content to buy Ruger Americans—or slightly pricier Tikkas T3s, which also have a reputation for consistently fine accuracy, plus a better trigger right out of the box.

Over the decade since Ruger Americans appeared I’ve learned to perform two simple gunsmithing tricks to free-float the barrel and make the trigger lighter and cleaner pulling, but Tikkas generally don’t need such tweaking. While some models of synthetic-stocked Tikka T3Xs have suggested retail prices over $1000, some remain well under that. You can spend $5000+ on a modern custom bolt-action that won’t shoot any better. But for some hunters a large part of their off-season recreation is dreaming up “ideal” custom rifles, including every detail, such as which action, barrel and stock to use, and their finishes. Oh, and which trendy new Wonder
Cartridge the barrel should be chambered for.

There’s also the fact that some extremely affordable factory rifles can be rebarreled by the average rifle loony. Many companies making pre-chambered and threaded aftermarket barrels for today’s Savage bolt actions, and some other rifles featuring a similar system. The selection of chamberings is big enough to satisfy all but the looniest of rifle loonies.

In Chapter 25 of The Big Book of Gun Gack II, “Switch-Barrel Rifles,” I wrote about installing a pre-chambered and threaded Shaw barrel on a .22-250 Savage Axis—a more affordable version of their 110 bolt rifle. MidwayUSA had a list of pre-chambered barrels they’d ordered from Shaw, which included a sporter in .250-3000 Savage with a 1-10 rifling twist.
The price, if I recall correctly, came to around $125 shipped, and the tools for changing Savage barrels are far less expensive. I’ve had a Brownells barrel-vise for a couple decades, and it took at most two hours to switch out the factory barrel for the Shaw. It turned out to be one of the most accurate .250s I’ve owned—and I’ve owned quite a few.

I originally got the barrel vise to switch Remington 700 barrels. Many brand-new ones are sold by gunsmiths, due to rifle loonies buying 700s to turn into modern custom rifles. I’ve done this considerably over the years, including barrels in .204 Ruger, .25-06 Remington, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington and 35 Whelen—and probably some others I’ve forgotten. There was also one barrel in .223 Remington Ackley Improved, being sold on 24hourcampfire’s free classified forum by somebody who “decided to go in a different direction.”

Replacing 700 barrels usually only involves unscrewing the original barrel, then screwing in another factory barrel. About 80% of the time headspace is within acceptable SAAMI limits—Charlie Sisk and I have both experienced this—and even those barrels a little outside SAAMI specs aren’t so far off that a little fire-forming won’t cure the “problem.” Or a little filing on the recoil lug, which in 700s fits between the front of the action and the rear shoulder of the barrel.

While neither the Savage or Remington rebarreling technique is quite the same as a gunsmith like Charlie rebarreling an action with a new Lilja (the brand he usually uses, as does Tyler Hansen), it costs far less. Which is another reason gunsmiths have decreased in the past few decades: Amateurs with a few relatively inexpensive tools can rebarrel their rifles themselves—or bolt on an after-market stock.

Yet another reason there’s not as much demand for general gunsmiths is today’s triggers, many of which are easily adjustable, one of the major selling points of the Remington 700 when it appeared in 1962. While the trigger of the dominant American bolt-action back then, the pre-’64 Model 70 Winchester, was supposedly adjustable, of the many pre-‘64s I’ve owned no trigger has been adjustable to less than a 4-pound pull, and many had a minimum of around 4-1/2 pounds.

Yes, they can be made lighter by partially taking the trigger apart and shortening the spring slightly, but that’s still normally a job beyond the skills of the average hunter. In contrast, the average guy could adjust a 700 trigger by fooling with the three tiny screws in the trigger housing—though sometimes they ended up with too little engagement and could trip accidentally, which caused Remington some legal problems.

When Ruger American Rifles first appeared, their triggers could be easily adjusted down to a 3-pound pull, or even slightly lighter. After a few years, however, I noticed the minimum pull becoming heavier, often even close to the four pounds of the Model 70’s trigger. But then I discovered how easy it is to remove the small trigger spring and shorten it slightly, whereupon they could be safely adjusted to similar pull as the original RAR models. I suspect this isn’t due to liability issues, but being able to crank out triggers faster on the assembly line, with a little more margin of error.

Which is yet another reason gunsmiths are disappearing….

Good little read, and basically what i surmised. the cost of keeping starting and keeping a gunsmithing operation going is not cheap.

Buck Hamlin just died. Keith Kearcher and Brad Batchelder passed a few years ago. Jerry Andrews, Kirk Merrington and Gunter Pfrommer are still kicking. David Trevallion is in his mid 80's and has pretty much retired. Brian Dudley has come into his own. Dewey Vicknair takes only "interesting" work at super premium rates for super premium work. All these gentlemen are and were first class gunsmiths with a national following. There are dozens more scattered around the country that dont advertise but are as good as the best. Trouble is finding one who has the time and interest in doing your project. Nobody shares their favorite gunsmith just like nobody shares their favorite hunting spot. Good luck finding one to call your own.

I know that guy!

Very good read MD. I think another reason for gunsmiths disappearing is all the YouTube DIY videos. Most people know someone with a lathe and mill. Another factor is government regulations. I just bought an action from a good member here and the cost from my FFL was $125 for bringing the action in from another state , sales tax , and dros. Working on guns sometimes is just not feasible. If things were like they were in the 60’s , I would consider being a gunsmith. Meanwhile I just tinker on my own stuff.

Yup!...

MD nailed it. Around here(Central NYS) not only traditional gunsmith’s are far and few between but also well stocked gun shops. I wouldn’t complain about an hour drive to get to a good one. Unfortunately, for my required work I need to send my gun to another state. Just a sign of the times.

I can't imagine an hours drive time for quality work being a deal breaker........

Check the American Custom Gunsmith Guild, they have a website and list gunsmiths by their specialty. To become a member of the guild the gunsmith must submit an example of is work. All the members are tops in their chosen specialty. Most of the 'smiths that I have used have retired, our own Jim Kobe is a very competent 'smith that I've used mostly for recoil pads. Jim's work is top notch, charges are reasonable as is his turnaround time. Well known pistolsmith Hamilton Bowen has done a caliber conversion on a Smith & Wesson revolver for me. He also accepts small jobs, recently I sent a S & W cylinder for his shop to add a "black powder chamfer", charge and turnaround time were very reasonable.

Those are called armorers.

They need to call themselves and advertise as such, instead of as Gunsmith.

I would gladly drive an hour to get to a real gunsmith. I had a great gunsmith about 20-30 minutes drive from me. He did it all, and was very good at it. But like most of the old timers that have died or retired he passed about four years ago. You cannot replace that kind of talent these days.

A lot of the stuff I do requires mostly machining work, so Im just gonna see if my machinist can do my latest project (mounting a custom designed optic rail for a sporterized g11 by Golden State Arms). He does pretty good work, and his prices are excellent.


Which is what started this rant when none of the gunsmiths I usually go to have access to a not-clapped-out milling machine and indexing tools.


But I hate driving, which is one reason I haven't gone south to Alhmans, or to Village Pine Custom a bit north - whom have TERRIBLE hours of operation.

You could buy a mill for your garage and not have to worry about hours of operation or machine condition.

Then i just need to worry about hours and costs of learning how to machine and hopefully not [bleep] up the things i need to not [bleep] up?

And then there you go

I just finished making six fairly intricate parts for a guy....lathe and mill work and they needed to be identical. He looked at them and said with a straight face: "I could've made these if I knew how to do it and could run those machines."

I can't imagine being a full time 'smith and putting up with stuff like this.

That is truly insulting. I would have asked him what he does for a living and broke it off in his azz. People have no idea the talent needed to produce true precision out of metal, let along in a repeatable way 6x.

I have noticed that a fair amount of good gunsmiths are short tempered and put up with very little from customers. After reading a few of these comments I can understand why. I worked part time at a gun shop and it was very annoying when people would call the shop and it seemed like they just needed someone to talk to. A fair amount of people seem to think that gun parts for old guns are a dime a dozen and easy to find. Such is not the case.....

This should be called the "People actual gunsmiths hate to see walk in the door" thread.

He didn't mean it that way....he's a good guy that I do a lot of special projects for. He used to ask if he could hang over my shoulder and watch. I don't work that way and need to be in the mood before chips start flying.

Good shootin' -Al

One of my gunsmithing school instructors had a saying that he was fond of, he often said "Customers are b astards" !

Le Mot Juste comes for Larry David," The customer is almost always an idiot and an azzwhole."

One of my pet peeves is about the guy that comes over with a project he needs done and then starts to tell me how to do it.

Understood, but that door swings both ways. A knowledgeable customer might inquire of the gunsmith how he would approach the job, in order to have confidence in the smith. I have encountered a few smiths who have to lord it over the customer, maybe adopt the "crusty craftsman" persona.

Case in point. I sent a Remington 700 LA .30-06 to a well known gunsmith to be rebarreled to .338-06. I specifically stated that I wanted it to be no heavier than the factory original. When I received it the barrel was about heavy varmint. When I called the smith he haughtily informed me that that chambering required a barrel that heavy. I guess nobody told the manufacturers of .338 Magnums that they had to have a heavy barrel. At a minimum, before starting the job, the smith should have told me that, in his opinion, the barrel would have to be heavier than the .30 caliber factory barrel. I also asked that the lug be pinned. It was not.

Business transactions like this should be conducted with honesty and mutual respect, and good communication. If the customer and smith can't agree, then they should not undertake the job and should go their separate ways. No harm no foul.

Sort of related. It's pretty obvious that time is money, and nobody in business can afford to spend excessive time talking with customers, especially when small low $$ jobs are involved. Yet, I recall a local smith, the go-to guy, who would talk your ear off. Lots of stories to tell, funny, complained about crappy guns, etc. He did great work, timely, fairly priced, had a soft spot for kids' guns. I wondered if he worked late into the night to get things done.

I've known doctors like that. Some run an assembly line practice, hardly communicate, but I've encountered a couple who would talk your ear off, one with hunting stories, with a waiting room full of patients.

Just people being people.

That's what UPS, Fedex, and USPS are there for, depending on the part you're looking to ship.

I started gunsmithing for others in 1976. I was mostly self taught but did absorb much from other gunsmiths I knew at the time. For the first twenty years of my gunsmithing career, I worked for retail shops and I liked that arrangement, although it took about five or six years before I started making real money at it. I can tell you, the 1970's, up to the early '80's, were kind of the golden age for gunsmiths. Parts were readily available and relatively inexpensive, knowledge was freely shared, and opportunities were abundant. I did everything from Mauser modifications to full custom rifles. I built winning BR rifles and high power rifles. I worked on (literally) thousands of S&W, Ruger, and Colt revolvers. I worked on shotguns of all sorts. I made stocks from the blank and finished a ton of stocks from Fajen (Boy, do I miss them!).
Times change though, and I soon found it easier to make a living as a machinist, a carpenter, and most recently, a campground owner. I still enjoy my gunsmithing but it is now, once again, more of a hobby than a vocation. I even started a You Tube channel where I can pass on some of the arcane knowledge I have picked up over the years. Maybe some of the hobbyists can appreciate the work done to repurpose barrels, alter military actions, and some of the accurizing techniques used for getting the best out of rifles from the last century.
I have to say, there are young gunsmiths today who are interested and who are already more capable than I was. Their youth, and still-functional brains, will allow them to do better work than ever. I suspect they'll make their money elsewhere though! GD

Greydog what's your channel? To old to be a gunsmith now but I still love to learn.

Will Henry's Workshop. I have a way to go to reach even amateur production status, but I show how to do things with modest equipment and limited skillset! @WiilHenry'sWorkshop-Gunsmith. Today, I plan to set back and re-chamber a 9.3x62 which has excess headspace.
So a demo of set-up, measurements, and reaming technique. GD

Adds way to much cost.

The fuel spent driving to and from a gunsmith of any distance is probably the same or more than shipping, even if you have to send it through an FFL. But I guess it's easier to complain about it on the internet than find an easy solution. Most of the gunsmith work I have done is shipped. Shipping really isn't a big deal, and it's worth shipping from a time perspective, as well as finding the best person for the job instead of trying to make a machinist work who doesn't really know precisely what to do.

From the gunsmith's point of view, shipping and receiving can be a real issue. For a one-man shop, it's a huge time suck; especially if, like me, the smith is 20 miles from the post office. In addition, there is getting to be more risk associated with shipping. Of course, some gunsmiths prefer personal interaction, while others do not. GD

$40+ both ways for FFL send, since most of the stuff I need worked on is on a serialized part (or rather firmly attached to it.) $80+ shipping costs is a bit more than a 1hr drive, both ways. But I also typically do like to talk to the person doing the work face to face and go over the fine details, of which there are typically several.

Greydog is the real deal. He's active in another site we both frequent and always has helpful advice and tips based on experience. - Al

Thank you for the kind words, Al. GD

All of our very good gunsmiths in our area has died off or retired. We had one just 50 miles away that was very good, but now only builds custom builds of precision long range rifles. He has a lot of repeat customers that are very satisfied. He is a real machinist. He even makes the dies for his custom rifles. I have been sending mine off by UPS for trigger jobs, barrel changes and other work. There are still some very good Smiths around. There are a lot of idiots around also, who are looking for the quick buck. I prefer a real gunsmith who does quality work as their standard.

Friend of mine's dad was a gunsmith in PENN back in the 70s and 80s. He would often have guys show up the night before deer season with an old rifle that needed parts, and when he explained to them that it might be a long time before he found the parts they would get upset and storm out of his shop.

Thanks Will, subscribed