Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 6mm Remington and Elk

Precisely. Before my son begins to pack a rifle big game hunting, he going to "pay his dues" and have a knowledge of the critters and the world they live in--that's what hunting is really about.

My son is 8 years old and he's already witnessed a half dozen deer/elk kills, hiked in a couple miles to in the dark to start the day's hunt, and watched the critters live and die throughout the year. For him to gain that understanding is important to me. It will be a few more years before I even think about him packing a big game rig.


Casey

Maybe he will have jumpy nerves, maybe he won't. After all, its been said that the most efficient predator in the world is a 12 year old boy with a rifle...

And some people are jumpy regardless of age, and some aren't. I've never experienced buck fever or nerves when shooting at any critter. But I've seen a lot of grown men who do run into that.

And I've yet to see the rifle that will reliably kill an elk with a bad shot, regardless of caliber.

I'm not familiar with elk hunting as laying up near the hay bales and waiting for shooting light. As for the guy who can bring his kid within 150 yards of an elk every year, what happens when the shot is just a bit off and there is a long, hard blood trail? Or, as I suggested earlier in this thread, what happens when a father keels over dead with a heart attack or an aneurism (and folks, this stuff happens)? Is a ten-year-old ready to hump out to the rig or to survive a night or two in the bush?

Sure, if left to his own devices a young man will kill everything in sight. There's a story about this very phenomena in the book I referenced, "The Old Man and the Boy." Kids need to be taught that hunting is not just shooting and killing and shooting and killing.

Gee, once again we have a thread where the naysayers cannot provide anything against whatever is proposed except, well, IT JUST WON'T WORK, or SOMETHING CAN GO WRONG--whether they have seen it done or not. From what I have read here, it apparently mostly not.

Sorry, I got a little carried away there. All I have done here is provide my personal experience, which does not involve any elk running off with .24 or .25 caliber holes in the wrong place when shot by any of the kids I've been around. And that is more than one or two, both elk and kids.

Let me see if we can figure out exactly why shooting an elk with a 6mm and a decent bullet won't work. Does the bullet bounce off? No, we have ample empirical evidence that it does not. In fact, we have ample evidence that if hit right with a 6mm (or .250, or .243 or .257) the elk will die quickly.

If the elk is hit wrong with a bigger rifle, will it die promptly? No, we also have ample empirical evidence that if an elk is hit wrong with a .270, 7mm-08, 7mm magnum, .30-06, .300 magnum or even a .338 that it will be not die promptly.

So the important thing is that the elk be hit correctly.

Apparently there is also some belief here that the kid involved should have been backpacking alone through the wilderness for some years, meanwhile firing thousands of rounds in practice with his big game rifle, before ever being allowed anywhere near a live elk.

Now, the kinds that I have seen and known who have killed elk with .243's, .250's and .257's have been pretty well versed in the outdoors, because they had spent plenty of time out there with their parents. They also had shot a lot, but mostly with a .22. Most had already killed deer or pronghorn before. Their parent was right there with them, with another rifle in hand. Maybe they haven't backpacked the Bob Marshall, or worn out several centerfire barrels, but then neither have most of their parents.

Yet,somehow, the kids managed to put the bullet in the right place. The elk all died. None ran off into the wilderness (as so many have with .270 and .338 holes in their guts). This has happened enough times with the kids of friends here in Montana that it appears to a be real trend, not an accident of luck, which is why I reported it as empirical evidence.

Also, so far nobody has had a heart attack while the kid was shooting. But I would guess that if they did, it wouldn't matter much what the elk was shot with.

Hamstead, I see your point, but....

There is risk involved with everything. I can tell you for a fact, the most dangerous part of any hunt you take a kid on will be the drive from your house to the hunting area. So, following your logic, you shouldnt take a kid elk hunting because you might head-on a drunk coming home at 3 AM on the highway?

Yeah, I suppose a father could "keel" over, a tree could fall on you, and a thousand other things could happen. But, the odds are so slim of that happening, I wouldnt worry much about it. Hunting is probably one of, if not the most, safe outdoor activities you can do with a kid. With satellite phones, gps's, good maps, etc. hunting has become a lot safer. Knowing how "gadget" savvy most 12 year old kids are, they likely know more about sat./cell phones and gps's than the adults they hunt with.

I'm glad my father assumed the risk and took me elk hunting with my 6mm when I was 12.

I killed 2 elk with my 6mm with 100 grain partitions, they died just like the 33 others I've killed with 30-06's, 300's, 7mm's, 338's...and even archery gear!

I think under close supervision with proper bullets, the 6mm is not a bad choice for starting kids on big-game (including elk).

I also say be smart about things, but dont let the .001% of bad things that can happen while hunting keep you from taking your kids hunting.

"Also, so far nobody has had a heart attack while the kid was shooting. But I would guess that if they did, it wouldn't matter much what the elk was shot with. "

John, I think it would matter what the elk was shot with. As shown by the heated passionate arguements here I believe many of the people here would have a heart attack if they saw the elk fall over after being shot with a 6mm bullet. Therefore he should at least use a believable caliber to eliminate the heart attack variable of the bystanders with him.

Mr. Barsness,

How dare you provide real live experiences without spouting off about something before doing it!

There is a huge problem on the Fire with folks spewing nonsense when they have absolutely no experience doing it.

The .223 and deer "argument" is the same thing...

You can lead a horse...

Phil Shoemaker, who has tons and tons of hunting and shooting experience from the military and as a guide in Alaska is also a very astute observer. By that I mean he doesn't reach conclussions hastily, he always has logical reasoning behind his conclusions, and he isn't swayed be emotions wheh it comes to guns.
Phil posts here as 458win, and also writes a column for Successful Hunter. (I think Mule Deer might have a subscription)
One of his recent columns talked about the two most popular cartridges in the Alaskan bush.
Yhe two most popular cartridges were ( small drum roll here) were the 223 and the 243. It seems those people who live in some of the harshest conditions in North America and whose lives depend on their rifles at times, are able to kill caribou, moose and grizzly bears with those two cartridges.
I think one of the things that would truly surprise the 6 mm naysayers here, is to take some dry newspaper and shoot a 100 grain Nosler Partion from a 6 mm and a 180 grain bullet ( best bullet you can get) into dry newspaper at 50 yards. Then shoot an animal with each bullet. I'll bet the difference in wound channels would be a lot less than you would think.
Royce

My grandfather killed a couple of dozen of NW Montana elk including many big bulls with a little .243 Winchester. The first "real" rifle I ever had was another .243 from him on my 13th birthday. I still hunt with that rifle though I pack a .270 for elk these days.

If some other father wants to take his 10-year-old elk hunting with a 6mm, so be it. I'm not inclined to tell another person how to parent... though I do believe that a person should follow the game laws and in some states, ten is too young to get a hunting license.

If we're talking about youth and hunting, I think we can have a reasonable conversation about our respective preferences. I don't think a kid should have to spend a week solo in the Bob before he can hunt elk. I do think it's a good idea to teach a kid woodscraft so he (or she) can handle an unexpected night in the woods. I think a parent should look at the hunting environment and make sure a young hunter is well prepared. The simple fact is that kids have been stranded in the woods for any number of reasons including an injury or death of the adult with them. Hunters die in the woods every year. Some die due to exposure within easy walking distance of the rig.

This isn't just about safety. Woodscraft is about mastery of the natural environment. It can give a kid confidence and sense of accomplishment. It's also about "earning" the right to hunt. My old man was (and still is) a demon on gun safety. He wouldn't buy us BB guns because he thought it bred bad habits. He wasn't big on woodscraft; we had to learn most of that by trial and error... lots of errors.

I know everyone has a different perspective, but time spent in the woods with a kid teaching them woodscraft or at the range or at an old dump shooting and plinking is still time spent with a kid. It's not time the kid is playing video games or getting into trouble. From personal experience, the more a kid shoots, the more comfortable he or she becomes. The more he handles a firearm in the presence of a responsible adult, the more gun safety is burned into his brain. Over the years, I have hunted with a number of different folks and I'm always amazed how casual some guys are about pointing firearms.

Can it really hurt a kid to spend a few days teaching him or her how to make fire? Can it really hurt to take the kid to the range once a week starting in the spring? Taking 90 minutes to two hours a week shoot 40 rounds a week over three months is 480 shells. Every sport or activity my kids ever played took more than two hours a week. Some of the same parents who buy a rifle and box of shells for a kid "ready to hunt elk" will watch that kid practice sports two or three hours a night and drive all day to go to game or meets on the weekends. Most of us won't wrestle or play football or run track for the rest of our lives, but many of us will hunt and fish until they bury us. What better time to teach lifetime skills than when a kid is young?

My experience with comparing 243/6mm's is granted somewhat limited. But I have seen shots with a 243 do damage and penetrate through more bone than I ever thought my 30 calibers would. It seemed that terminal damage was more severe with the 243 to me and it ruined more meat when it hit spine and so forth. I don't want to talk about my 338 RUM on spinal shots though.

If you think about it, and compare a thimble vs a needle and see which one goes further into your finger with the same amount of force from your other hand...well.

A group from one of the sporting goods store went to Montana a year ago and were culling deer with everything from 204's to 45-70's. Every kill was DRT, except with one rifle. That was the 300 WBY. The doe was shot through the boiler room and ran about 100 yds and died. Granted, nothing is conclusive, but that kind of stunk for the 300 Wby guy.

That said ...I still prefer my 30's and up for elk. Perhaps because I just like to be more confident that I can plow one hard at longer ranges. Or, perhaps it was because that was all I knew as a teenager.

All-in-all, still there is no substitute for a well placed shot.

Hampstead,

I agree...but I'd say its pretty reasonable to assume that if you spend 28 years hunting elk you learn a fair amount of "woodscraft" along the way.

Its also pretty safe to assume that you learn quite a bit about yourself, the gear you prefer, what it takes to kill elk, etc. etc.

Hampstead,

I agree totally.

I took my daughters on hunting, fishing, and camping trips almost from the time they were born. I started them shooting .22's at about age five. My oldest developed a love of hunting; the youngest went the fishing route.

They are in their mid-late 20's now; both live in urban areas. When they come up to Alaska on their annual fishing jaunts -- they always bring up how grateful they are to have learned woodcraft at an early age, and the confidence they have in their ability to survive under harsh or difficult conditions.

Taking kids to the woods, the desert, the fields, the oceans and teaching them what you know, or learning new skills together, is one of the greatest gifts you can give a child.

As far as the 6mm on elk question? Get close, shoot'em in the lungs with a good bullet, stuff dies.

DN

If the lesson to be taught when taking a youngster elk hunting is that their ability to steer the bullet to the right spot is the key to success, let them shoot a round that virtually guarantees success because they can shoot it well, even when excited.

Too many kids are taught that elk are bulletproof and only a cannon will kill one, and come away believing that horsepower trumps precision.

When I turned 9 years old my old man turned me loose with a Savage 99 in 243. I loved shooting that rifle because it was fairly light very little recoil and everything I poked a hole in died. I had all the faith in the world in that rifle.

A guy I work with is of a very slight stature probably 130 pounds soaking wet. His wife is very, very small. Both they and thier two sons shoot the 243 at everything, they take the time to get as close as they can to the critter before shooting. Both he and his wife have taken many Elk between them, with no problem. The two of them drew for Bison here in AZ both filled tags, with the 243.

While a larger caliber allows for some fudge factor, it is not the end all. Practice, good bullets and knowing where to put said bullet is more important in my humble view.

I agree and disagree. I agree that a guy should learn a few things in 28 years of hunting. Then again, I know plenty of wives who would attest that their husbands haven't learned much after 28 years of marriage.

I agree that spending time with a kid is the best way to impart that knowledge. I also think that the Campfire is evidence that there's always something new to learn. If anything, the deep woods teaches us humility. I'm an avid reader, always have been. When I was a pup, I latched on to a copy of Bradford Angier's "How to Stay Alive in the Woods." I practically wore the ink off the pages. My point is, a guy can always learn more but some guys have no real interest in woodscraft, per se. They'll toss a few things in a fanny pack, but for them its about hunting. Growing up in a logging family, I was expected to be able to identify every species of tree... particularly since directions were given, trees were the usual landmarks. I know guys who have hunted the same woods for 30 years but can't identify more than two or three species of birds. For me, it's important to teach kids about the woods, not just about killing elk. It would be a shame if the only time a kid wanted to go outside was to drop meat on the ground... at least from my perspective.

People pick various calibers for many reasons. I have had three .243 caliber guns one being a 6MM Remington the other two Win 243�s. They have been amazingly accurate guns. I wouldn�t use one for elk.

But having said that my Uncle Mac had used a .264 Win Magnum for years and as he got older it caused his bursitis some grief. He switched over to a 6MM Remington like his wife used. They both harvested a lot of animals with those guns from coyotes, antelope, deer, elk, bear and moose. By the way they didn�t do a lot of tracking.

Sheeeesh John....

Well, my kid practically gives me a heart attack every day, so if he lives long enough to get to elk hunting age.......



Casey

Ditto that

Back about 1994,I went on my first elk hunt,guided in Colorado near Lone Cone. I took two rifles,a brand spankin new 300 Weatherby that I had never killed jack with,and a Remington 270 Mountain rifle that had already taken plenty of deer and hogs at home.

Another hunter showed up with his 338,and a guy from Texas had a 300 Winchester. We asked the guide what he thought the best elk gun was and he said "The lady that just left killed her elk with a 257 Roberts,a clean one shot kill,I reckon the best one is the one you can shot well."

After one day of schepping around the big Weatherby,I carried the 270 and used a 130 grain X bullet to kill a Colorado Bull very dead.

So..... A 6mm with a 100 grain TSX or Partition in the right place beats something bigger in the wrong place everytime. If my daughter who is very recoil sensitive goes after elk with me,I really can't think of anything better than a nice little gun like your M600 in 6mm Remington. When she is ready I have just the 7x57 for her,but untill then,a little rifle like your 6mm is fine.

Britt