Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Alaskans: opinions/enlightenment, please.

I've been seeing stories about the Pilgrim family homestead in the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, outside of McCarthy AK. [b][color:"blue"]This story from the Anchorage Daily News[/color][/b] is the first balanced version of the story that I've seen, to date.

Any of you Alaskans have any first hand knowledge of this controversy? This is not the kind of story that is ever going to make the pages of the New York Time--unless there is some bloodshed. This story has piqued my interest but I have very little info on which to base an opinion. Help a city boy out, would ya?

A very interesting story!

I wonder how it will all turn out?

Mike

It is an interesting story... but more than a bit weird. They knew two things when they started bulldozing the road; they were breaking the law and once they cut the road they would have a road. There are a ton of issues about access that are not being addressed properly and this is an example.

There are a lot of good hunting areas on state land that have been used by hunters for years that there is no access to because ANILCA gave away the lands without respect to accessing the lands behind. The native groups wisely tied up the river frontages, effectively expanding their exclusive holdings dramatically...

Some of the best sheep hunting in the state was swallowed by W/SE Park when Carter tied up all those millions of acres. Most are not reachable or are only used by local inholders for anything. It is despicable what they did to hunters with just a touch of ink.

Large as Alaska is, the sheep hunting areas were cut by over half and the access ruined to much more. Now we have a senator, daughter of the governor, in a rush to settle a bunch of issues about land access, all to the detriment of users.

But to get back to Pa Pilgrim... I think he is a nut case... but as a tee-shirt printed by a friend of mine says "Alaska men, the odds are good... but the goods are odd!"
art

Wuzzy,
I have a difficult time endorsing either party....I certainly don't like what all this Federal intervention has done to Alaska...or elsewhere....but this other party is a pseudo-religious opportunist.....with the charisma of Charlie Manson......we could do very well without either....Thank You!

Thanks for the link.

I, for one, don't find their religious beliefs to be in any way 'cult like.' This is a single family unit, not a bunch of strangers who have paid, or given up their individual freedoms, to belong.

If the land was legally bought, then they should have access. Especially since there is historical evidence of access to their land. They're not bulldozing 'unspoiled' wilderness, they cleared an existing road. Maybe they strayed from the exact route, but nature has a way of requiring that kind of rerouting.

Their way of life may not be the 'norm', but is wholesome and seems to fit into the Christian based way of life on which this country was originally founded. I know political correctness no longer supports this ideal, but that's the way this country started, and that's what made it great. There's not much room left for this kind of lifestyle, and the Pilgrims may have found one of the last niches in which to proceed.

McCarthy has always had a reputation for being a rough area. There was a murder there a few years back. I don't remember the outcome, but dealing with armed folks in the backwoods has always been very tough for law enforcement. I don't blame the authorities for being a bit cautious. The local Ranger is in a very tough spot. If he doesn't take appropriate actions in accordance with current law, he could ruin his career. Yet too much enforcement can easily been seen as being too harsh with the locals, with whom he has to deal with all year around.

The Pilgims may, or may not, be playing 'stupid', but the authorities will need to insure they understand all applicable laws, and help them as needed. I think part of being a law enforcing entity is working with those over whom you exert control. Ignorance is not an excuse, but the regulations in cases like this are way more complex than most can understand.

Just my .02 cents...

I don't have a problem with how they choose to live, that is there choice. At first I was wholly behind them, but after reading the recent article, and some reflection, I no longer hold that view.

There is alot of land in Alaska that is only accessible by hiking in, flying in, or from the water. When they bought this land, they were aware that there was no road access to the land. When the reality check hit that they couldn't live off the land the way they thought they could, and they had to fly in and out more often then they could afford, they decided to fire up the dozer and cut a swath through the park.

Yes, they followed an old road bed, but there are alot of old roads and trails around the state. Jsut because there may be an old road or trail somewhere doesn't mean anybody has the right to improve that trail for their own personal driveway.

I think the feds have acted with proper restraint. I can also appreciate there concern. If this guy decides to run the dozer through the park now, what'll he do next?

I tend to agree with 458 Lott. This group sounds just like some others who want to use the Lords name to justify what they do. Just because they invoke the name of Jesus, doesn't justify their actions, nor make them legal.

Access issues aside. If the history of this group is in any way accurate, these people are a bunch of freeloaders. They have no apparent means of independent income and would not be here in Alaska without the permenant fund dividend.pak

Probably true, but they aren't a burden on the system(welfare recipients), and they have as much right to live there as anyone else...

Mike

ROTR, Yes these folks have the right to live as they please. The problem is if one of them is in need of hospitalization they will get the care but cannot pay. The result of this is the cost of their care will be deseminated throughtout the cost of others who can pay. As you know, living in the woods has its hazards. I really doubt that 17 people can live in the bush without needing medical help of some kind..sometime.pak

True...I suppose they could sell an animal or that bulldozer if they had too..

Mike

The bulldozer was borrowed. And what's with a 28 year old, not-bad looking daughter still living with her family? If you had blackmailed the Kennedys- if they did_ - wouldn't you change your name and move to someplace like McCarthy? I think I'd keep a lower profile, tho. Sounds like "The Lord Will Provide" - other people's stuff, sometimes. I'm back and forth on this issue, but it seems like this old man might be a take-all-you-can-get con man. I. e. "Me first, and the devil take the hindmost". Still, in a small town, factions can develop and get quite intense., so I dunno. How about clearing that road by hand/horse, and using horse drawn wagons? It's a day trip.

Las,
these folks lived in our neck of the woods for about 2 or three years! Didn't know if you new or not. They were rescued(?) by a local attorney and given a house he owned to live in. Did a little business with the family and they always paid in cash, though they would not use one dollar bills or accept same in change. They had a problem with the pyramid/eye print on the back. They would come into the shop and sing Christmas carols to my crew during the season. Strange by common standards...yes. I have never claimed to be the best judge of character as I am usually bent to err on the positive side of things (the eternal optimist hey.) All dealings were cordial.
best,
bhtr

What strikes me as odd is why the ADN has put so much ink on this issue. I don't think I've seen them cover any other issue with so many pages devoted to it.

There was a recent article about a guy who was charged for taking the junk on his lot and pushing it onto BLM land, scarring it with a dozer. Really not a whole lot different than this case, other then it recieved about one paragraph, in a back section of the paper.

Definition: Cult: the little church down the street from our own; a religious group too small to be called a minority.

These folks are doing their own thing and it appears that the worst crime they have committed is bulldozing an old road without a permit.

Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote that �a man without a personality is not worth talking to�, I wonder how many of those opposed to �Papa Pilgrim� have a personality that would get them as much space as given this old dude in the ADN?

Most of those opposed to this guy appear to be conformers to the norm, and thereby worthless in a democracy. �Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness� ever heard of it? If this guy needs to pay a fine, make him pay it and then get off his a**.

Our general populous hates anyone who is a tad different. We live in a culture of sheep playing follow the leader no matter who that leader may be, and along comes someone who listens to a �different drummer� and we want to destroy the guy.

I don�t know this guy, I don�t want to, he lives his life without bothering me or anyone else except busybodies and tree pigs, so I say more power to him and I wish there were more like him.

It is hard not to like a guy who thumbs his nose at the government, however WE are the government and it is OUR land he is impinging upon. Even though it is a miniscule amount in the grand scheme of things he is not conforming he is an outlaw and thus must be brought back into the flock with the rest of us sheeple. I wonder how that dozer got to his place with out a road, did it get packed in a piece at a time? I doubt it.i bet the road can be followed as it is grown up only with pioneer species of trees, alders, poplars, etc surrounded by spruce and pines. Your government at work, kind of reminds me oF Ruby Ridge and Waco. Gotta run I hear jackboots martching down the driveway.

Bullwnkl.

The issue here is the incrementalist approach taken by the Park service as quoted in the ADN...how NPS didn't slam down the book in 1980 after ANILCA was passed in the last hours of Peanut Farmer's administration. I worked in AK that year and two more and let me tell you, people were ANGRY at the hosing they took for "national interest."
The bottom line is that NPS expects to be around for a long time, and they can incrementally squeeze out "noncompatible" use either by waiting until nobody remembers the past or the enabling language supposedly respecting "valid existing rights."
Also, as near as I can figure, the right of way here is the old Copper River and Northwestern main line railroad grade. They had a HUGE bridge at McCarthy that was used for autos until it was either flooded out or earthquaked.
All I can say is that it is too bad the "Pilgrims" or Hale family are so far off-center. Folks more in the mainstream and not living on the Alaska bonus would be more sympathetic figures to make a case against what are clearly NPS excesses.
The Park Service clearly wishes that Kennecott had NEVER mined copper there, their lives would be SO much simpler without any meddlesome civilians around.

Dave
The huge bridge to McCarthy is very much alive and well... the last one at the river has been gone for a very long time, but that was not the huge one.
art

Dave,

I've spent more than my share of time in Cordova and when I vsisted their little museum they had some real good info on the Copper River and Northwestern Railroad. Apperently the CR&NW railroad had the nick-name "Can't Run and Never Will.". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The 60+ mile road leading out of Cordova to the Miles Glacier is actually the old rail bed. At what is now the end of the road, is the Million Dollar Bridge.

I've also had the luck to fly up the Copper River, past Chitina and McCarthy up to the Kennicot Mine. Awesome country up there! Sure wish I had visisted when the only way across (after break up) was the hand trolly the had across the river.

Oh, there's an abandoned locomotive way east of the Copper River delta, out towards Cape Suckling area, maybe not that far. There it sits, seemingly out in the middle of nowhere. But if you look closely (some areas are more obvious) you can see the old rail bed leading off into the distance.

Anyhow, nice to seem some support for the 'weirdo's' off in the 'sticks.' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have no problems with weirdos off in the sticks doing there thing, that is their business. What this is though is a case of a Cheechacko thinking he can go off in the woods and live off the bounty of the land. The reality was, he and his brood couldn't cut it, and they couldn't afford to ship in the supplies they needed to make it on their own. So, instead of flying into civilization and getting a job so that they could pay for the access they didn't have, via a plane, he fired up the dozer and made a nice 14 mile driveway through the park.

This isn't a case of a long time residant being made an island by the park, and being sick and tired of it. This is a case of a guy buying land that he knew required either air, foot or pack animal access, but him saying screw it, it's too hard, or too exspensive that way, I'll just use this convenient dozer here.

Don't make this guy the poster child for property rights, he certainly isn't the right guy to back, and is doing much more harm then good. He didn't even attempt to work a solution with the park dept about his access problem. I think the parks dept was reasonable in their response. No body was handcuffed and carted off to jail, no armed siege occored, the guy hasn't even been formally charged, yet. I'm sure the feds will come down hard on the guy, fearing that if they don't, the dozers will be fired up to clear every old road bed and right away across the state.