Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Jeff Cooper - Styer Scout - just don't get it?

Two points:

1-Thanx Matt in Virginia.

2-Another point to consider in determining the value of a Scout Rifle is whether you carry a sidearm into the hunting fields. I see this alot. I have read many posts in this forum that indicate many of you carry a 9mm, a 44 mag, or a 45 acp handgun in addition to your rifle. Those persons are prime candidtates for a Scout.

Imagine a guy with an 8.5 pound 270 Win hunting deer. Assume he carries 2-3 additional pounds of pistol. Add maybe a pound for ammo for both weapons. The total is about 12 pounds of weaponry.

A scout rifle is about 7.0 pounds. Add a few stripper clips of ammo and the total is about 8-8.5 pounds. The scout rifle will capably handle both tasks and save a lot of weight.

Finally, when thinking about Scout Rifles, you have to change your thinking. We all get caught up in the increasing specialization of rifles and cartridges, etc. The Scout is a generalists rifle. It will do many things in a workmanlike manner. It may not excel at any single task--it isn't intended to.

Just my 2 cents

BMT

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Didn't Cooper say: "First and foremost, it must be handy"...? I held & sighted with one at a gun show once, and I was really impressed with the way it handled. Sure, it looked goofy as all get out, but like Phil Shoemaker, I believe beauty is as beauty does. Boil off all the bells and whistles that make a rifle a specialized tool and you have to admit, what's left is a lot like the Scout.
I stand ready to be corrected here, but I thought JC envisioned a 35 cal medium bore but Steyr bumped it up to .375 to make minimum for Dangerous Game in some coutries. Anybody else hear that?
I like the concept enough to build something like it, but I'm right handed and left eye dominant, sort of defeats the purpose (besides, I have more than a few "all around rifles"). If anyone gets a chance, ask the Colonel how to deal with that eye dominance thing, will you?

The Scout can do anything you're capable of, so your limits are its limits. It's not about a design or a scope or a cartridge. It's about shooting, but it's not about becoming proficent or even expert. It's about becoming serious enough to truly master one weapon, to use it as an extension of your will, the way most of us use a pencil. And as anyone who has studied martial arts knows, that has more to do with the warrior than his weapons.

Okie John

Sourmash:

I am also "cross-dominant." (that is, right handed and left-eyed -- keep yer jokes to yerself .) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This effectively makes me a left handed shooter. I plan on building a scout based upon a stainless left hand bolt action. So far, Monatana and Savage are the only two companies I have found that make stainless, left handed bolt actions. It looks to me that the Savage rifle in 308 can be made into a scout with a quick snip of the barrel, addition of a sling swivel stud (for the ching sling) and a forward scope.

Otherwise, it will have to be a custom built rifle.

But . . . . that's why I still have an old "Smelly" (SMLE).

BMT

i be the opposite of y'all: lefthanded and right-eye dominant. always i have shot long guns righthanded and handguns lefthanded. no wonder i am confused.

So I'm not the only one "outed"?
When I first found out what my eye dominance deal was, I started shooting a left handed bow and went from wildly eratic to deadly accurate overnight. Someday, when I'm old enough, I'm going to buy a side-by-side 12 guage and try bird hunting. That said, I just can't deal with learning to shoot a rifle all over again. It just doesn't feel like a big handicap holding my left eye shut as I sight through the scope.

Certainly has been a lot of hyperbole on this thread, and a lot of BS too by the uninformed and ignorant. Based on what I've read so far I'm the only one who actually owns and uses a Jeff Cooper Edition Steyr Scout rifle.

Trust me when I say the following:
The rifle may be ugly to some eyes, but it is very ergonomic. Pretty is as pretty does, and this rifle does real good. And length of stock can be adjusted.
A regular scope can be mounted, if desired. The mount design is expensive and rock solid.
The 2.5x Leupold IER scope is good quality, and by shooting with both eyes, one has unlimited field of view. It takes a little getting used to, but the extra thick cross hairs of the scope aid this greatly.
For those of you used to American quality bolt actions and how they are, let me tell you that the fit and finish as well as the operation of this rifle is superior to anything you have ever experienced. It really is a work of art. No tool marks anywhere, and very smooth.

The built in bipod is a great and practical idea. I always hunt with a bipod, and it's certainly a lot handier than the standard Harris bipod, and miles ahead of shooting sticks, which I regard as a last resort anyway to better alternatives.

The "Ching-sling" is a great aid to shooting, and the set-up for it is standard on this rifle.

The rifle is light and handy for its caliber. You can't get this using any reasonable wood that I have heard of. I have a .308 version of the Scout, and it's sub-MOA accurate. The test target came with a less than 1/2" group. It's easily duplicated.

A 10 round magazine is available, and the rifle comes standard with an extra 5 round magazine in the stock.

A small cleaning kit can be stored in the stock, making you truly independent in the field.

Extra rounds can be stored on the side of the rifle with an accessory kit. This allows 15 rounds available in standard configuration.

The rifle comes standard with fold down "ghost ring and post" sights. They are completely out of the way when a scope is mounted.

There is an accessory mount system on the fore end of the rifle.

For most of you on budgets, I realize that this rifle is expensive, and there are certainly good alternatives for a heckuva lot less money. BUT they aren't JC Scout rifles. Steyr really did a great job on this rifle, and it lives up to all the hype you have read. Obviously if you don't see a purpose for it, don't buy it. But I have no regrets. For what it is it's superb.

I know Jeff Cooper as well, and I have some history and experience with his Scout Rifle concept -- and with the Steyr Scout plus the .376 Steyr.

I took the Gunsite basic rifle course under Jeff Cooper in the early 90s before he sold the school. I used a rifle of general configuration for the course, and then I came back with a scout configured rifle I built for the advanced rifle course. I won the shoot off at the end of that week shooting the scout.

When the Steyr Scout emerged in '98, I acquired one. Since then I have hunted with it in Africa and North America. I have taken somewhere past 50 game animals with it. I also got a .376 Steyr in the ProHunter version, because I didn't think the cartridge and the Steyr Scout made sense together: a general-purpose rifle and a special-purpose cartridge mated as it were.

I did a review of the Steyr Scout for Sniper Country, and an article for African Hunter. I did a second article for AH on the .376 on an eland hunt in Zimbabwe. My friend Eric Ching uses a Scout in .376 Steyr too, and he has authored a couple of articles on the cartridge for AH. The .376 Steyr is based on the European 9.3X64 case, which has never been a hot number over here. The Hornady factory loads are not up to the task for heavy game. I would suggest reloads if you want to shoot a Cape buffalo with it for example.

The Steyr Scout is light and handy, but I removed the forward-mount scope and replaced it with a low-power variable mounted over the action. I find this a more general configuration for hunting. Lately I am trying some of the super-duper 1.5-6X42 scopes for reduced light shooting. The Steyr Scout is great in the woods, or from a tree stand.

In my opinion the scout concept is flawed in the scope out there on the end is subject to problems with light, and doesn't work as well early and late in the day.

Steyr-Mannlicher has not done well with the marketing of the rifles. They have changed US distributors, and not for the better it seems. The marketing of the .376 Steyr cartridge has been even poorer. Shooting one is a bit like having a wildcat -- you must ensure your own ammo supply. I find the .376 Steyr in the ProHunter to recoil much less than my .375 H&H rifles. It is powerful and handy. It is not, though, a thing of beauty.

Glyn Bindon of Trijicon (RIP) pioneered the two-eyes open shooting concept, and he at least called it Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC) for his lines of sights. Many people don't understand why Jeff pushes this idea, and dismiss it out of hand.

You need to actually try the rifle before you write it off. It will grow on you.

jim dodd

Thanks for your analysis. I've experienced the same problems with light and EER scopes. I would also have made the guess that the Hornady bullets wouldn't hold up on truly big game. Their .416's are fine--they have MUCH heavier jackets--but the .375 softpoints are simply not up to penetrating 1500-pound game from certain angles.

I guess I'venever been that enamored of bipods, buolt-in or add-on, either. I obtained one of the Clifton stocks with built-in bipod when they appeared on the market in the 1980's and found it very limiting. I almost always hunt with a daypack anyway, which works even more flexibly a bipod if you know how to use it from prone. I have also found that shooting sticks (particularly the fuly-etendable model from Stoney Point that work from sitting or standing are a very handy aid.

If Steyer did a better job of marketing I certainly would try one of the Scout rifles, but they have not reached out to American writers.

John,

I agree about the bipod on the Steyr Scout: the only use I have found for it is keeping the rifle out of the dirt when I set it down on a range. I have yet to shoot any animal from the bipod.

I have a Stalker Staff that you can use standing or sitting as shooting sticks, but I usually leave it home and just sling up. I have shot from shooting sticks in Africa, but then someone else had to carry them.

GSI loaned me the .376 ProHunter that I took to Zimbabwe and wrote about in African Hunter. I liked the rifle enough to buy it from them. They were good guys, but Steyr fired them as the importer and replaced them with Friends of the New Boss (as reported by some insiders). I have been underwhelmed by the new regime. Kind of a "they don't know they don't know" outfit.

Both Eric Ching and I offered to take our .376 Steyrs on Cape buff hunts if Steyr-Mannlicher would sponsor part of the cost. They slow-rolled it long enough that we each went hunting and of course used different rifles. As it turned out I used a .375 H&H and took the largest buff taken in Zim in 2002 (or at least entered in the ZPHAGA outfitter awards program), and that story turned into another AH article. They could have had beaucoup good marketing, but alas it was not to be.

jim

Mule Deer and Others:

Interesting Input regarding the IER "Scout" scopes. I recall that Mule Deer would prefer a good aperture sight. The SMLE that I use as a scout is not now scoped. And based upon what I read here, I may never do so.

This is from the proceedings of the First Scout Rifle Conference (1983), regarding metallic sights, the Guru noted:

"Several members of the conference stated that consideration should be given to a scout rifle which has no glass sights. Whether a utility rifle should be equipped with a telescope sight is at least moot. Telescopic sights have many advantages, but we sometimes forget that they are not really necessary except for those whose eyesight is failing, especially considering that the scout rifle is not ordinarily to be used on minute targets such as squirrels and gophers. A scout rifle which is to be only sighted with an aperture should properly be equipped with a conveniently adjustable rear ring. "

An interesting point for folks looking to try out the Scout concept cheaply is to use the SMLE No 4 Mk I. It has a Quick FLip "battle sight" (similar to the Ghost ring) with a Micrometer Aperture option. This is a cheap to install option on a SMLE ($24.00 US). At present, I have a pretty good scout rifle with only $300 (US) invested.

Just my 2 cents.

And thanx for the discussion guys, I learned something . . . .

BMT

Hunter Jim, it's good to hear from someone that actually owns has has experience with the rifle. I've owned mine less than 6 months, but have already hunted with it albeit unsuccessfully. I'm taking it out again in 2 weeks after feral hogs here in the PRK.

I too see the possibilities of a 1.5-6x42 scope normally mounted. What ones have you tried? I have a lot of experience with Schmidt and Bender, and lean in that direction. But am certainly open to suggestions.

I think the .376 Steyr Scout is discontinued.

To all.

What will the Scout do,that say a S/S Seven(or similar) in 308 won't?

I'm not hip on the bipod gimmick,nor EER glass and know that I am MUCH faster in aquisition with a "regular" scope mounted in the "regular" location,if only due to familiarity. I've yet to use any EER type of glass that wasn't a definate handicap,but that could simply be my biased perceptions.

I really like Cooper in general,but the Scout concept escapes me,in the guise that Steyr offers. A short/handy/compact rifle upon one's favorite action,wearing a good stock and a modest scope,doesn't need to be force fed,nor is it an aquired taste. Michael's flushcups swivels,are a nice invent and I'm partial to them and have several handles setup in that fashion.

So perhaps the Scout concept does call me,just not in the fashion currently offered and less that particular moniker?.......................

Big Stick,
From the point of view of actual kill power or something like that, probably not any better than a 7.

BUT the Steyr is a very compact, handy, light rifle, with lots of utility, all in one package. It's unique in that regard.

Bipods: I hunted for years without one, but having used them extensively in the last year or so, I sure don't know why. These devices really help in the field, and it's rare when one is not of use. When you realize that the "lightweight" Harris Bipod adds a lot of weight to a rifle, I think the Steyr concept of a light integrated Bipod is a great idea. The height is very usable, but too tall at the bench. Which is as it should be, as anything shorter would be too short for staring over obstacles in the field.

I don't see utility advantages within the Scout wrapper,that doesn't exist elsewhere in other offerings.

I used to use a bipod more than I do now. I've grown to favor my pack or something similar,if not something available via terrafirma,to use an aid. Truth is,I've never been at a loss to procure some means,when thinking a longish poke. I'm not as good with a sling as I should be,though I can get by nicely with one,especially sitting.

The bipod within the Scout doesn't allow the latitude of adjustment to make me giddy. If procuring such a rifle and if it was available sans bipod,that would be the route I'd be inclined. That of course is subjective,but I'd be happy without it.

As far as dealing damage on critters,one could do much worse than a modest lengthed 7-08 or 308,I'm a great fan of such a combo. I guess it is the forward mounted glass,that would be the most difficult for me to warm up to. That is a hurdle I'd continually trip over and such bobbles don't help end results.

Maybe I'm old fashioned?.................(grin)

mrmarklin,

Clad to see another Kalistan gun owner on the list, especially a Steyr Scout owner. The rifle is handy and useful in the field, and it is the first thing I grab when going hunting.

This week I have a Schmidt & Bender 1.5-6X42 scope mounted over the action while I do some testing. I might haul it to Saskatchewan in November too. It sure looks big sitting up there in the Steyr 30 mm rings (which are "hoch" or high). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The factory is definitely not building any more rifles in .376 Steyr. In fact you can find a few ProHunter .376 rifles around for under $500.

jim

I have had a lot of problems with EER scopes mounted on pistols. I have a hard time finding where to hold them so I can see. I think that they would work better on a rifle because the distance from your eye to the scope would be constant.

I think that a reddot scope would work better thougn.

Conrad

Dogzapper:

Thanks for the directions a few weeks ago re: hwy 30. I am going to Portland again next week. You free for a beer? I have Thursday night to kill, maybe early Wed.

I agree with those who say a .308 Win can kill damn near anything. My Rem Mod7 in .308 is my favorite rifle for general purpose hunting (400 lb animals). My second favorite is the same gun in a .300 SAUM. The .338 gets the nod for things bigger.

BMT,

The SMLE sight interests me. Can you tell me more about it?