Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Interesting hunting/sniper rifle with historical significance

Alpinecrick, the blue book states for the 1952 mannlicher the stock was strengthed for the scope sidemount, i believe this rifle is original, there seems to be a problem with scope identifacition, the serial number on the plaque is the same as on the scope!! idont think this was the standard rifle capt.Aylward carried every day!its a mystery!!Don

How could anyone shoot that distance with a 3x9 scope,my hunting partners could even see a clear picture of target at 350 yds,just an orange blur.

crittergetter, the scope is nice!! but your right the distances are astounding!!! this is why i would like to find out more , and about the witnesses!! Don

I like to read stories like this and find them very interesting. I have a book, "Shots Fired In Anger" by LTC John George, where he used a pre war Model 70 Carbine in the Burma Campaign. He also used an '03 Springfield. I wouldn't think it should be too hard to prove the documentation on your rifle. Anyway, that's a very nice rig with a great story to go with it. Congrats...Bill.

Gen. E.W.Ridings is shown here: http://www.warfoto.com/3rdsociety8.htm#Generals


Thanks...Bill.

That's a special item. Congrats!

One thing to check is the range of vertical travel in that scope. Most scopes of that configuration won't provide the vertical travel of the reticle for 1900 yds. For that range, and considering any rifle, the scope needs to accommodate a huge range of travel. (By one calculation I did for an 06, 80 MOA adjustment for zero at 1900 yds. is req'd.) The base may provide a lot of that, but then the scope is a problem at closer ranges because it does not have the downward adjustment.

From what I understand, for most of the long range shooting of that era, the scopes had external adjustments like the Unertl.

Marine Sniper Rifle

Al fool, yes i havent checked it yet!! a friend of mine has one of those Unertl 8x scopes like new with the mts, and in the carrying tube , kinda neat it says marine right on the scope! Don

According to Hathcock, as told in "Marine Sniper", he and his boys in 'Nam did not worry much about vertical adjustments in the scope. They zeroed at 600 yds and did the rest with hold over or hold under if they took a really close shot like 300 yds. He mentions the common use of a Redfield 10X in 'Nam.

I would suspect that cranking turrets is a fairly new thing with military snipers.

Hold over had to be used when shooting 10-12 ft over your target.
It's uncanny how they could hit anything doing it that way. But they obviously did do it. When you raised your scope/rifle to shoot 12 feet over, I wonder if you could still see the target at the bottom of scope. The field of view on these scopes is not large, I'm sure. Even some of the best scopes/in the long range business couldn't accomodate this using turrets at the distance mentioned. Anyway it's an awesome find and would be a precious add to any collection.

First, nice rifle regardless of history.

My questions on the history: What were a General, Col, 2 Lt. Col's, doing all bunched up close enough to "witness" a Cpt, do this in a combat zone? 2 out of 3 shots find their mark for "kills" from over a mile with a 30-06, factory gun no less? They say he killed 2 snipers at that range? So these "snipers" were in "sniping mode", read as covered and concealed AND as in taking shots at this Cpt, the other brass, or some other troops...so he made these kill shots at over a mile hitting at least partially covered and concealed men...not men in the open and upright...or at least not the second one Id wager. Then there's the issues other have brought up about the scope and dating it.

I don't have any info to debunk it or ever part of it. I know there was a confirmed kill by an Army sniper recently in Iraq at some God awful stupid range with a .308, but I can't recall that exact range...there was a thread here about it...maybe someone can dig it up.

BTW, did anyone catch the Mythbuster's episode where they debunked the Carlos Hathcock yarn of shooting through another sniper's scope...seems the bullet wont make it through a scope (surprising to me). They used a 30-06 with ball ammo, and started at 100yds with good hits each time and no full penetration to the dummy behind the scope...finally they set up to take trajectory out of the mix...at about 10 feet...they destroyed a number of cheap scopes...but not one let the bullet pass all the way through, including the one at close range. So, there you have what appears to be one sniper myth busted. JFYI.

Jim, if I recall, they eventually managed to get penetration with an AP round. I didn't pay enough attention to remember much else. Seems like that show might have been a follow-up. Best, John

I don't know what your intent with this rifle is? If this rifle was used by an officer of the Third Infantry Division, the 3ID is located at Ft. Stewart, GA. Hinesville/Savannah. They have a museum of the Division's history, they may be willing to purchase the rifle or you could donate it. You can pull up the 3ID's website and see about it.

280,

I would not call that one a myth. Hathcock relates the story in his own words in "Marine Sniper" and names the witnesses he took back to the scene to prove what even he found quite amazing. It has been nearly twenty years since I read the book and I can no longer remember the names of the witnesses, but that scene does stand out quite well in my memory.

As far as the bullet used to make the aforementioned shot, I do not remember if the bullet was specifically mentioned for this shot. Hathcock did mention many times in the book that most of their ammo was handloaded in the "sniper hooch" and they preferred the use of Sierra Matchkings. He was able to identify one enemy female intelligence agent by the SMK they pulled from her spine.

A lot of people have written a great deal about Gunny Hathcock, and he has been called a lot of things. I do not think that liar has ever been included in that list, at least not by anyone who knew the man.

I saw the Mythbusters episode in question. It was painfully obvious that Jamie and partner had no knowledge of Hathcock, his tactics, or his equipment.

Never call anyone a liar, that is bad manners. I do however question such a claim as 1900+ yards with a 30-06. My ballistic tables don't go that far, but at 1200 yards the velocity of a 30-06 is under 1100 fps with a M.V. of 2900 fps with a 168 grain match bullet with a B.C. of .450. At that same range of 1200 yards the drop is 320 inches or 27 feet. Another 700+ yards, the velocity is diminished drastically and the drop increased exponentially.

I know embellishment isn't a new phenomenon, as people have always liked to tell a good story.

http://ferncanyonpress.com/tombston/wyatt/montana.shtml

This website shows a picture from the 1880's that claims Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, and a bunch of famous people from the "Wild West" were supposed to be all together at the same place at the same time, but historically it was an impossibility.

The gun is what it is, but the story I would say is suspect.

shrapnel, i think your ballistic tables would be optimum conditions ,i'm assuming he was probably shooting downhill and that would throw everything out of wack, energy and trajectory, who knows the whole thing could be luck ,or bunk!! wish i could get a hold of a witness, i believe the shooter is deceased! Don

Loggah:

Don't think you said where you got the rifle. Is it possible for you to trace back along the chain of ownership? You'd probably get a lot of questions answered that way.

- Tom

I bought it out of a gunshop, from what i know the capt. is deceased in Quincy Mass. Don

How come no one has referenced Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls yet? (Not meant to disparage or support anything, just surprised that it hadn't come up.) Best to all, John

Have read CH's book...just relating what Mythbusters did, and it was, in fact, to my surprise. The episode I recall was that they were unable to obtain full penetration of the scope, even at close range.