Home Forums Birds & Dogs Upland Game Question about shells, powder capacity and shot size

Okay, I ran into a guy about a week ago while I was hunting. I was using 2-3/4" 12g shells with 6 shot. I'm shooting Modified and full. I had killed some quail and missed a couple of my second shots when a couple covey's broke.

He was using 3" #8 shot with Imp cycl and modified. We got to talking and I realized my short coming by his astute observation. He said "Hey you have a pointer that is doing a good job, load for the dog not the bird".

Hmmm I guess all these years without a dog and shooting wild birds that jump anyplace. I really needed some knock down power. Because with light shot they will run like the dickens. So I suppose I was loaded for bear! Hard to hit quail with a tight full choke, and not much to collect when you do hit them solid!

This weekend I swapped my chokes to imp cyl, and Mod. Then I loaded up some of my cheap as dirt clay target #8 shot and went hunting with the dog. I killed every bird the jumped, not all on the first shot, but all died. A couple would have been lost without the dog. However with my cloud of lead in the air I only need to knock them down, bushman will find or catch them after that.

Now this fella I bumped into was using 3" high base #8 shot they were red shells, but so far I have not been able to find any. I assumed he bought them but now I guess he must have hand loaded them. Any ideas here?

There is a huge difference in the way I need to load now that I have such a good dog. He's totally spoiled me! Those 3" shells will put a huge cloud of lead in the air with a little bit more zip. I gotta be ready for Pheasant, quail, partridge, and chuckers.

Anyone ever see 3" upland #8 lead shot shells?

Alright now, the 3" shell is the upland equivalent of the 416. It has it's place in the field, but it is NOT for shooting quail over a pointing dog!

The fellow you ran into is absolutely right, you load for the circumstances, and with a pointing dog, skeet and light mod would be an "accepted" combination.

Personally, I don't like 8's, but for very close shots on dove and quail, they'll work. I like 7's a lot for everything up to chukar size; they (and blue grouse) get sixes. Pheasants and sage grouse get 1 3/8's of fives, with a buffered load of 1.5 oz of 4's for the third (cripple buster) shot.

That said, the your friendly adviser is absolutely wrong about one thing: the 3" load. Unless you open your chokes WAY up, to say diffuser and cylinder, more pellets get you more density, but not more killing power. With 1 oz of 8's and a skeet choke (you are still too tight with IC/MOD!!!!), you have plenty of pellet density with 1 oz of 8's on quail out to about 25-30 yards. After 30 yards, you run out of ENERGY with the #8 pellet. You can go to 1 5/8's of pellets or so, but even though you will put more pellets into the birds, they don't fall better: insufficient penetration.

The balance is in choke (to achieve pattern density), pellet weight (to maintain foot-pounds and penetration), and pellet count (to maintain pattern density). For longer shots, you need to maintain pellet energy, and the only way to do that reasonably is to increase pellet size. In other words, a 30-40 yard shot NEEDS at least a 6, and you must adjust choke and pellet count to achieve pattern density. Of course, a 6 will kill a quail at 22 yards, too, which is why many people stay with them, and just open the choke way up on the first barrel.

So, in my above suggestion of "skeet/LM", I'd go with maybe 7.5's (or 8's) on the first shot, and 1 1/4 oz of 6's in the second barrel. Or, forego shots past 30 yards.

Have fun,

Dutch.

I can't imagine needing or wanting 3" of #8 in a 12 guage for anything. I've never seen it either. Closest I've ever seen was 3" #7-1/2 in 20 guage used for competitive sporting clays. I shoot 7-1/2 or 8 for quail, generally 1-1/8 ounce and through IC and M chokes. Even that is more than adequate. IMO, about an ounce (or even 7/8) of either size out of an IC 20 guage is about perfect quail medicine.

Stick with your 2-3/4 8s and you'll be fine.

Thanks, I've since weighed the diferrence and realized some basic things. 3" shells have way too much density and would leave a very narrow window of functional impact. The shot density would be too great close up and to slow far away.

The 2-3/4" shells I used this past weekend were fine for all 7 birds, and with the dog even a marginal hit that results in a knock down will still be successful.

There is a good reason nobody makes them eh! Thanks for the feedback.

2.75 inch hi brass loads in 7.5 shot is what you're looking for. It's readily available. With an IC choke, that's all I use for the early season. It's tough to miss!

T bone, what brand are they? I was at sportsmans Whse today poking around. I Saw about a zillion kinds of ammo. I just bought a sale case of Clay target loads, cheap as dirt, So I figure I'll use them for practice with my target launcher.

These sound like an interesting option for sure. However I've no complaints with the loads I used this past weekend.

+1!

I'd started to think no one else was using 7's. Even with a dog, I like to end it quick, and the 7's do that, no thrashing, flopping, running, etc.

Joe

I think there's something "magic" about the 7's. Just enough "extra" to get it done.

My kids hate it when they miss twice on sharptails with their "heavy load" of sixes, and I scratch it down with 1 oz of 7's at 45 yards...... Then again, sharpies aren't hard to bring down, and they almost never run. Also like it a lot on ruffies (though I tend to step down to 7/8th's because the shots are often so close.

In the end, it's the Indian, not the arrow. JMO, Dutch.

By hi-brass I mean 3.75 dram, 1.25 oz lead, 7.5 shot. I have both Federal and Remington brands on hand. However, I did a quick search through MidwayUSA's website, and only found 3.25 dram loads.

Edit. found 4 different brands at Cheaper than Dirt.
Remington
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66011-7566-2566.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/15923-15094-2566.html
Federal
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65600-7721-2566.html
Estate
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/50211-9587-2566.html
Winchester
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65007-8151-2566.html

I too am learning some of this stuff JJ,

I know gambels are hard to kill and most of us use 7 1/2s. Some of the guys swear by copper clad shot, better patterns and better penetration. 1 oz in a 20 and 1 1/8 oz in a 12. Some guy move to `1 1/4 of #6s for late season gambels. Choke ranges from IC to mod.

Mearns is new to me this year. I have a 20 ga Benelli Montefeltro and have only used 1 oz of 7 1/2s. I found that IC worked well for gambels and dove for quite a distance. I AM having trouble getting mearns on the covey rise sometimes. I talked it up with Murphy's where three of the guys there,including the owner shoot #8s with cylinder choke at mearns. FYI mearns die with as little as one pellet. They are very fragile compared to a gambels.

I did try cylinder with the 7 1/2s and didn't see much of a change on the close shots and tended to miss more long shots SO...I found some Federal 20 ga 1 0z of #8s yesterday at our super wal-mart. Going out tomorrow with the intent to mash um flat on the covey rise. Will probably do better on pointed singles too.

I do tend to agree that the dog/conditions dictate the choke/shot choice. The deep canyons I will be hunting should be perfect for these 8s. The dogs are getting steadier too, which helps me to get closer before the rise.



I'll get back to you on this soon.

#8 is for doves, 7.5 for quail, #7 for anything up to 35 yard pheasants, #6 for 45 yard phesants and #5 for pheasants to 55 and sage grouse. No body "needs" more than 1 1/4 oz of 3 1/4 dram loads.

My quail gun is a 28 gauge 3/4 oz of 7.5 from a skeet choke and 3/4 #7 from an IC. My phesant/chicken/sharpie/ruff/hun gun is a 16 ga. Normally loaded 7/8th of #7 and 1 oz of #6 cylinder and IC or skeet and mod. If it's late season or snow on the ground pheasant only hunting I go 1 oz of #6 from IC and 1 1/8 of #5 or 5.5 shot from mod or IM.

Patterns kill not individual shot. it's 3-5 hits in the vitals of the proper size pellet that kills.

T bone, thanks for the litings of the shells, lots of good stuff there. I never expected that research from anyone!

JJ,

I went out today and got a very quick limit of 8 mearns. I must say the combination of 20ga 1 oz of #8s and a cylinder choke worked the best of anything this season.

The hunt only took 1 1/2 hrs! Things worked out well. We hit 4 coveys with the first just 70 yds from the truck. Two were passing shots from 15-20 yds. The rest were shots at quail flying straight away. I don't want anyone to think I didn't miss some shots, I did. Those quail are good at curving around trees or edges of slopes. I know one shot would have been a miss with the IC and 7 1/2s. I didn't get the shotgun properly shouldered and still got one at 15 yds.

The quail were field dressed to be throughly cleaned at home. I was very surprised that the passing shots didn't damage the breasts. There were a few pellets that entered and passed through but most bruised and never entered. I never found a single pellet in a bird, including the legs. 7 1/2 tended to rip channels in the breast meat with far more damage.

This is far from a complete test but so far I am impressed. Would I use this combo for gambels or scaled quail? No way. It sure worked for close up mearns. You can bet I'll be using this combo again next week.

Ross

I'll be going out on the 2nd for Chuckers and Pheasants. It's a private club, I'll be using the 7's in the heavy skeet loads Winchester puts out. I'll add to the data just as you have after that.

JJhack,

The only time I use 3" is on geese and sometimes ducks. 2 3/4" is all you need for upland birds. I couldn't agree more on the improved/modified chokes over the full. I use #7 reloads for most of my upland hunting. 7.5's in 2 3/4" with IC would be my first choice for quail.

If you get the chance, try patterning your loads with various chokes. It's amazing how much different loads/chokes vary for pattern density.

Yep. Just my opinion, of course, but for upland game in 12 gauge, especially with a good pointer, you should never need anything more than 2-3/4" shells.

For quail-- 1 oz of 8s is plenty (good hard shot is better than gun club ammo for hunting). For gun club pheasants--1 to 1-1/8 oz of #5s or #6s in low brass shells (around 1200 fps) is about perfect (but, 7.5s work too). For wild pheasants--1-1/4 oz high brass loads (1300+ fps), with #5 or #6 shot are good all around. The wild pheasants are the only ones that you might consider using 2-3/4" magnums on-- say 1-3/8 oz of #4-#6 shot. As an all around compromise, I'd have no problem using 1-1/4 oz high brass #7.5s for the vast majority of my upland shooting if I had to.

Also, you might consider opening up your chokes a little if you find yourself blowing up birds or missing close ones. Maybe skeet in the lower barrel and IC or light modified in the upper. (But, I still use IC/Mod almost all the time for pheasant hunting myself.)

We used to all use full choke guns and either cleanly miss, blow them to peices, or when we got a little better at it, let them fly a bit before taking the shot. Now, with choke tubes in a seemingly unlimited range of constrictions, we can just change the choke to match the shot we expect. Life is good!

If you're shooting smaller birds over a pointing dog let me suggest you try some 1 1/8oz loads using # 7 1/2 size shot ---stay away from the 8's if you value you're teeth. My personal preference would by Remington STS Sporting Clays loads and barring that, some STS Handicap loads and I'd shoot Skeet and Light-Modified chokes.....or if you must have more shot try the Winchester Live Pigeon load which has 1 1/4oz of hard 7 1/2's and I'd use the same chokes.

JJ,
For years now, I have shot tons of trap and sporting clays targets, with Winchester 12 ga. AA factory and handloads, #7.5 shot.

Not only is this a near-perfect load for doves and quail, I have also used it for years for put-and-take pheasants and chukars over my pointing lab.

I also use this load as a first-shot option in my semiautos for wild birds that are holding well for my dog. I have found #8 shot a bit light for my taste, both for birds and sporting clays.

As far as chokes are concerned- my favorite quail gun for birds holding for the dogs is a Ruger 20 ga. Red Label, bored Skeet and Skeet, with #7.5 shot. This gun is light, quick, and deadly on bobwhites.

When using one of my 12 ga. semiautos, Improved Cylinder is nearly always the preferred choice for doves and pheasants.

You have come to the same conclusions I have for the most part.

I've learned that with this new pup, as he is going so far. I don't need to fold the birds in the air, I only need to prevent them from flying. Any bird that falls will be caught by this GSP. At 6 months old now he's 100% so far. It will only get better as he gets a bit more muscle mass too.

Letting the dog run down cripples is fine but, especially with a young dog, you'd be better off having them hit the ground dead.

The combination of a young dog and a lightly wounded pheasant can go bad quickly as I've seen the effects of cock-bird's spurs on a inexperienced dog and getting smacked by what ever they call the front edge of the wing across the face while the spurs are digging in can adjust the attitude of a younger dog very easily and once "turned" it's hard to get them back to where they were.