Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Last straw with Midway USA for me

I've been out of town and away from my shop for a few months due to a death in the family and I tried to order some stuff from Midway this morning and have it sent to me up here in Oregon.

Couldn't do it because Midway's "policy" does not allow shipping to any address except the business premises on your FFL.

I've ordered a bunch of stuff from Brownells and Dave Manson and had it sent to me here in Oregon with no problem at all...and I ordered the Gre-Tan firing pin assembly for scoutdog from Brownells the other day and had them ship it directly to him and they didn't blink an eye when I told them where to ship it. I have ordered parts for customers on numerous occasions over the years from Brownells and had those parts sent directly to the customer and Brownells has never had a problem with that.

The order I tried to place with Midway did not involve a firearm or even a firearm part...just a Leica laser range finder.

Midway has pulled this crap before by refusing to send Remington receivers to my mailing address that appears as "mailing address" right on my FFL. Their "policy" (even though the ATF does not require it) is to only send firearms to the business premises address on the FFL.

I had a long discussion with Larry Potterfeld (the owner of Midway) two years ago at the Guild show in Reno about this ridiculous policy and despite his assurance that he would "look into it" nothing has changed. I guess old Larry doesn't really care about his customers all that much.

I notified the supervisor at Midway that I spoke with that I was canceling my dealer account with Midway and would NEVER be patronizing them in the future. Now that they no longer have a contract with Remington for 700 actions I don't really need to do business with them anyway.

Midway and Larry Potterfield certainly have the right to adopt any policies they want to...and their customers (and potential customers) also have the right to spend our money elsewhere.

I'm not asking for advice or suggestions, just putting this out as general info on what you can expect when doing business with Midway. They will get none of my business in the future.

One of the guys that works for me ordered a 30 round magazine for one of those really high powered AK-47's they're talking about on CNN.com He got it, opened the package, it was a 5 round magazine. He called Midway up, they said it was their mistake and to keep the 5 round magazine and they'd get him a 30 rounder. The package shows up, inside is another 5 round magazine. He writes a nasty gram, takes a picture of a 5 round magazine next to a 30 round magazine, and sends it off. He recieves a follow up call from Lori "P" (I believe that was the first name, only speculating what the P stood for) and she apologized and said she was personally sending the 30 round magazine to him. It finally arrived.

Everytime I've ordered from Midway half the stuff has been backordered, even though the commercial on tv shows their massive warehouses and Larry is standing there saying they keep big inventories to prevent that from happening. Then you get charged to ship the original order, as well as charged again to ship the backorder.

I'll live with screw ups, back orders, and such (to a point) but this other stuff Midway does has just run it's course with me and I will NEVER patronize them again.

Several other smiths I know feel the same way about their ridiculous shipping/mailing policy and NO ONE (including the owner Larry Potterfield) seems to know where it came from or why this policy is in place.

I've been around long enough to remember when Larry started Midway and he used to consider customer relations as a very important part of doing business. Well boy has that changed since he has become rich and prosperous and is busy buying up all of his suppliers and competitors.

There are too many companies out there that value their customers to waste your time on places like Midway. Gunsmiths frequently buy stuff and have it sent directly to a customer and having a policy that doesn't allow this is just stupid business...in my opinion.

Obviously, the loss of my yearly business is not going to send Larry into bankruptcy, but I'll bet I'm not the only smith that takes his business elsewhere.

A year or so ago, I ordered a box of 20 empty .308 Nickle plated cases. The price was reasonable, but when I did the calculations for the total, the postage was much more than the cost of the cases, and about double the actual shipping charges. I canceled the order.

I have heard of companies that do this--charge nearly double what it actually costs to mail a package, then stick the balance in their pocket.

To me, this is just making additional profit under of the guise of "postage and handling."

I won't buy from companies who do this.

Not getting too far off the topic, but then you have companies like Half Moon rifle shop.

I remember when I placed my first order for some of their great Gun Goddess rust bluing solution. I offered to pay on the phone with my credit card but they said they would send a bill because they didn't know what the actual shipping would be until they took it to the post office.

I got the Gun Goddess a couple of days later and there was no bill in the box. I called them and they said: "Oh, don't worry about it, you should get it in a week or so."

Guess who I buy all my rust bluing solution from now?


There are plenty of great companies and businessmen/women out there (Brownells, Half Moon, Dave Manson, Ed LaPour, Roger Biesen, Paul and Sharon Dressell,to name just a few I deal with pretty regularly) and I will keep going to them even if their prices might sometimes be a bit higher than others. LIfe is too short to deal with jerks that don't care about their customers.

their shipping costs are astronomical ...

Rick,

Midway has a policy,
Midway made a choice...

Now you get to choose. Stop doing business with them.

Your kind of acting like a "victim" IMHO

Guess you missed this in my original post: "Midway and Larry Potterfield certainly have the right to adopt any policies they want to...and their customers (and potential customers) also have the right to spend our money elsewhere."

I made my choice to spend my money elsewhere and emailed Larry Potterfield to let him know exactly why.

I'm hardly viewing myself or acting as a victim...just a very unsatisfied "ex" customer of Midway.

I missed it.
Good for you!

What was the purpose of this thread?

Guess you didn't read that either ?

"I'm not asking for advice or suggestions, just putting this out as general info on what you can expect when doing business with Midway. They will get none of my business in the future."

The title of this forum is "gunsmithing" and there are several of us posting on here who are FFL holding gunsmiths and have to use certain businesses as suppliers for parts and equipment. Midway, at one time, was one of the better places we did business with. In the last few years that seems to have changed for the worst and I just thought other smiths might like to know about it ahead of time.

Thank you

Good post Rick. You are not the only one. About every shooting board I go to has some one bitching about them. I used to order weekly when they had the shipping in with the price. Once they really started expanding their prices went up and I found good deals else where. They screwed up my last two orders and double billed me. I am not completly done with them but they are the last place I look for stuff. I need to be hard up for bullets or brass. Everything else comes for other places now.

It's pretty common on gun forums for customers to complain about this gunsmith or that gunsmith in regards to their lack of customer relations/service and I just thought it might be appropriate to point to an example of what we gunsmiths also have to deal with when we are the "customer" of the businesses who supply the stuff we need to work on your guns.

The mailing/shipping policy I related that Midway has chosen to adopt does not affect anyone except those of us with FFL's and dealer accounts with them.

They even have a clickable button on their order form where you can specify a different shipping address from your credit card billing address...UNLESS you are logged in as a dealer, then the button doesn't work.

Your FFL info, along with the FFL premises address is already on the order page and you can't change anything when it comes to shipping the merchandise...even if it is not FFL restricted stuff like receivers, frames , etc. If you order a damn tee-shirt from them it has to be mailed to your FFL address.

The other thing that really cracks me up with Midway is when they send out their "BIG SALE!!!!" emails.

You look at the "BIG SALE" and instead of something being $39.99 it is "discounted" to $39.95.

RickB,

I'm wondering if Midway's shipping policies (not costs) stem from them trying to prevent fraud. I've had a few credit card numbers stolen over the years and in each case, the thief tried to have the merchandise shipped to a different address than the billing address of the CC. The vendors refused and saved VISA, me and the vendors from losing money. In one case a $10,000.00 TV! Midway may just want to ship to the CC or FFL address for "security" reasons. I don't know the whole situation but there is my $0.02.

RH

I've ordered all my optics from bear basin without ant problems.

I asked that very question of Larry Potterfield at the Reno guild show two years ago had he had absolutely no idea why or when the policy was adopted...and he ownes the damned company! If you ask a supervisor at Midway about it they will only answer that this is their policy and cannot be changed.

As far as credit card fraud is concerned, 99% of companies would go broke at Christmas if customers were not allowed to buy gifts and have them sent to someone else at another address. I do a ton of business over the internet and I have stuff mailed to different places all the time. This is the first business I have ever encountered that makes you have stuff sent to a specific address...and one of their choosing I might add!

Like I stated earlier, just this week I ordered a part from Brownells using my dealer account for a poster on here and I had them send it directly to him. Brownells didn't seem to have the least bit of trouble in doing that for me. I also just ordered some stuff from Dave Manson and had him mail it to me at my mom's house in Oregon where I am right now. Dave also had no problem with that.

My FFL lists both my business premises address and my mailing/shipping address and both are clearly denoted as such. When I get mail from the BATF it goes to my mailing address NOT my business premises address. If I order non-restricted parts from Midway they will send it to my mailing address...but if I order an FFL only part they will only mail it to my business premises address. And no matter what I order from them they will not mail it to other than one of those two addresses. You make sense out of it because I can't.

In order to log onto Midways dealer section of their web site, I have to enter a user name and password just like I do at my banks web site.

I'm only guessing about this, but my conversation with Larry Potterfield certainly didn't disprove or deny it. I think this "policy" of Midways came from some computer geek who set up their web site and their computerized billing/shipping system. What I do know is that before they had a web site and computerized billing and shipping this policy wasn't there.

I have an 03 FFL account with them and I have used it to buy and ship to 4 different addresses, of which 1 of them is listed on the FFL. Maybe since it was an 03 instead of an 01?

I have had no problems with them and use them alot.

However I love those sale ads:
YOU SAVE $0.10!!

Years ago I used to buy a lot of supplies from Midway, back when the shipping was "free" (included in the price). When they started charging shipping I posted a thread on another board, AR, titled "Midway USA raises prices, starts charging for shipping". I got a kind of irate e-mail the next day from Potterfield (he must have monitored the board) explaining how he had to start charging shipping because people were nickel and diming him by ordering $2 orders from him and going to the competetitors for their large orders, so he instituted a minimum order and started charging for shipping so he wouldn't have to pay $3 to ship something someone paid him $2 for. He assured me that they would only charge actual shipping costs, that they would not make money off of the shipping like Cabela's and most others do. Well, fast forward a few years and you can see that Midway's shipping charges have spiraled up through the roof, no way it costs them what they charge for shipping. It's become a profit center for them which is the exact thing that Potterfield stated that they would not do in his e-mail. As their shipping costs have skyrocketed my patronage has diminished. I can't remember the last time I ordered anything from them. I'll admit that it's as much about their chronically being backordered on many items as it is their high shipping charges. If you put together an order of ten items then usually at least 3 are out of stock. It's just become a hassle to deal with them and when you factor in shipping their prices are too high. They used to be a great company, but over the last few years they've gone to pot.

I have no idea why the type of FFL would make any difference, and no one at Midway (up to and including the owner) can/will explain what they are trying to prevent or protect by having this policy or what terrible incident precipitated it's adoption in the first place.

I've never had any problems with Midway except for this silly mailing policy. Everything I have ever ordered from them came on time and as ordered. I mostly used them as my source for Remington 700 actions but they no longer have that contract with Remington and when they sell off what they have they aren't getting any more.

I've been following this thread and it's been interesting reading the posts.. I also have done business with Midway for some years now, but I have to admit I only order from them now maybe once a year; mainly because of some truly special deal OR it's the only place that has the item..

I do agree that their shipping costs have gotten kinda high, which is one of the reasons I've slowed down ordering from them.. Brownell's gets a lot of my business mainly because they have the items in stock 99.9/100 times, they ship quickly, their customer service is difficult to beat and if you can order several items at a time the shipping costs becomes quite reasonable. Also, their online ordering checkout screens are easily/quickly gone through and I can be online and off again in a scant minute or two with a completed order..

I have tried to order from them, but it seems like 2 out of 3 items I want are out of stock and back ordered. So now I use Brownell or Sinclair.

for years i have been hearing about midway/potterfield. i did not realize that the problems were that extensive. i read an article somewhere questioning potterfields integrity. i am now beginning to see that there may have been something to that. i will never complain about brownell's again!

The one and only time I met Larry Potterfield face to face the man was nothing but gracious.

I think I may have gotten Midways attention because just this morning I have gotten two emails from their customer relations people. I also sent an email to Larry yesterday telling him to cancel my account.

I replied with the same info I have posted on here and they replied that they were sorry I had a problem with their policy and that my emails had been forwarded to "management."

I guess Larry doesn't count since he's just the owner.

I've always had good experiences with Midway, although their shipping costs have gotten a bit high lately. Two boxes of .257 bullets I ordered today ($50) cost over $8 to ship. Seems just a bit steep. Who has a good combo of decent product pricing and fair shipping costs when placing smaller orders of $200 or less?

Now the same company too. Hopefully the service from both remains as good as it's always been.

RICKb,

Just curious, but do you get any type of discount for being a dealer or gunsmith from Midway?? If so, their policy might be in place so that it prevents unscupulous FFls from dropshipping to friends and family on their discount---Just a thought and a theory to the f*&^ked up policy.
I look at shipping costs as the lesser of two evils of having to drive the 34 miles back and forth to the local gunshop- that's 2 gallons of gas $6.60 and then the local shop is out of Bullseye which was by primary reason for going......
It's nice to have the Brownell's option though.

I don't order from them much anymore (usually out of what I want)

Had a problem last year with the runaround on an order--and found out something interesting >>>> they record all calls.

I finally got through to a manager, first thing she asked was "what dates did you call?" Next thing she said: "Let me go listen to the calls and I'll call you back"

She did call back, said "Yep!, you were right!" and got it fixed. Otherwise, it would have been my word against the operator's.

hmm......

Yes, dealers do get discounts on certain items...but how is buying something at my dealer cost and shipping it to someone else being "unscrupulous?" And what would prevent me from buying something from Midway, receiving it at my FFL address, and then turning around and sending it to someone else???

Bear basin is where I like to buy optics from, good people. They have the Leica range finders,I bought the crf before the first of year price increase.

one problem I have with midway is there out of stock, on many items I'm interested in.

numerious times I've received my order of bullets, and the factory containers broke open, and a mess with the packing peanuts, ect. , you'd think they could do a better job of packing ones order.

Don, here's an example that might help explain the problem I have with Midway's shipping policy.

Last year I was doing a trigger job on a 1911 for a cop friend who lives in Northern California. As a cop he gets dealer prices from Brownells and he bought some parts for his pistol from them and had them shipped directly to me to have them installed.

Had he ordered the parts from Midway he couldn't have done this. He would either have to have me order the parts for him or order them himself and then ship them to me after he received them...in effect paying two shipping costs.

This isn't a HUGE thing...but as I stated from the get-go, it's just really stupid (business wise) and a pain in the rear for their customers.

If there is a truly valid reason for their policy I would like to hear what it is and why that "valid reason" only applies to Midway and none of the other companies out there who do not have it.

It's not just Midway increasing shipping prices. Year over year, UPS shipping and insurance costs have doubled. Now, when I ship a barreled action in a hard case overnight, I'm looking at $180 with the fuel surcharge thrown in.

But Midway is the worst, and has become my least favorite supplier, because of their shipping. My last order included some Talley bases and rings and a new catalog. Midway didn't bother to tape closed the Talley boxes, so they came open, some of the rings got scratched, and I had to search through the peanuts for the parts. The catalog was "free", but Midway charged me a shipping fee on it.

These are small problems, not worth complaining about, but they add up, and I won't buy from Midway if I can avoid it.

Success breeds greed.... Midway had put itself in a position to compete with Brownells. Didn't take them long to piss that opportunity away.

I feel the same about the minimum order and shipping thing. The sale discounts are laughable too.

GeoW

Prices (including shipping/insurance) are a cost of doing business that everyone has to deal with one way or another.

However, adopting policies that make it more difficult for your customers to place/receive orders and give you their money is just down right stupid...IMO.

I can choose whom I do business with, and ease of transactions is one of the deciding factors for me. The more obstacles the company places in the path of me getting what I order the less likely I am to continue doing business with them.

That, and that alone, is why I have chosen to cancel my account with Midway.

I once ordered numerous single boxes of high end match .22LR to try in a 40X. About half the boxes came through open with the cartridges mixed in with the peanuts. When I called and complained, they replaced them because you couldn't sort them. A couple of the replacements also came broken. The customer service rep acted like I was trying to pull something. I gave up and ordered from Sportsmans Guide. They taped them shut prior to shipping.

FWIW, I only order if it's on sale. And if it's bullets, I only order calibers that are easily sorted because there's a good chance they will be mixed in with the peanuts.

I have had good luck with midwayusa I just think they need to do better about having things in stock,I don't do backorder...

I have had zero problems with Midway and routinely have stuff shipped to a different address than my billing one. Just did it last week. The shipping charges are quite transparent when ordering on-line as is the ability to ship to a different address. Of course I am not an FFL holder. Brownell's is always good by damn expensive for us non-dealers/FFL's.

As I stated numerous times, their shipping/mailing policy does not affect you unless you have a dealer/FFL account with them.

Midway went downhill when they changed their shipping policy. Not because it was no longer included in the price but because of their attitudes. As Rick said, their customer service went out the window. I've been a customer since 1987 but have gotten to the point that I no longer order from them.

I truly hope that Larry reads my email and also that he views the comments on here. He is a really nice guy and he obviously knows how to turn a garage business into a multi-million dollar corporation.

When I first raised the question about their shipping policy for dealer/FFL's with him I got the distinct impression that he did not know anything about it. I guess that can happen when a business grows too fast and the owner becomes more and more detached from the day to day operations.

Those of us who rely on companies like Brownells and Midway to supply the tools and parts that we need to service our customers will all be better off if these companies stay afloat and prosper...and in order to do that they have to keep their customers happy.

I'm just small potatoes in the big scheme of things but I spend many thousands of my dollars and my customers dollars every year with these places and I refuse to have to jump through hoops and go over unreasonable obstacles in order to get my orders filled.

why don't we lobby brownells to carry more reloading stuff, if enough of us do it, they will carry it. then we can only buy from one source. I'm in the military and have only ordered a few things from them, but it was fast shipping and very reasonable. and they offered me a discount.
I say lets send them emails, who knows what could happen.
emails are free

Brownells acquired Sinclair not too long ago, so in effect they do carry reloading stuff...its just on another web site.

I just made an order thru Midway this weekend and made sure after reading this thread awhile back to say "No thank you" to the catalog. I'm a Brownells man myself most of the time.

Last week I go an email promo about the importance of my anniversary with/to Midway, so special (discounted?) pricing had been set up for my next order. Interesting, as I am in the midst of building my reloading inventories. I followed their instructions and failed to find a single discounted price on anything ( a long list) that i was interested in.
Midway is getting consistently bad enough that I generally just hit the delete button. Sorry to see them go down the tubes like this.

Let me first say I don�t work for midway, nor do I have a FFL. I�m just guessing.

Midway offers you a discount because you have a FFL. They do not offer your brother or second cousin a discount. They do not offer your internet buddy who you have never met a discount. It would be real easy for somebody to post on a forum like this that their midway account name is XYZ and the password is 123. Everybody could then log into midway, enter their shipping address and credit card info and get your discount. The only way they can know for sure the FFL is the one getting the discount is by shipping to the FFL address.

Badspiller,

Ever heard of drop shipping? If I had to reship every order a customer places with me I would never turn a nickle's profit. Their discounts just aren't that big. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to have an item shipped other than your place of business. Often when building a custom rifle for a client they will want dies, brass and bullets first. They'll assemble some rounds and ship them to me to function check the rifle with.

But you seem to be missing the point of Rick's first post where he stated that though his shipping address is on his FFL and is different than his POB, they still refused. Is he giving all his unknown internet buddies keys to his public mailbox too?

The mailing addy of my FFL is also different than my POB. No other vendor gives me grief about it.

We have a new Cabelas store just north of me. I have compared prices and most of the time I spend my bullet money at Cabelas
because the shipping is so high at Midway. They are only a buck or so cheaper on the bullets and I have a "discount" at midway?
I used to buy from Midway when they shipped free, but not since Cabelas came to town!

Midway's shipping is unreal and through the roof. I've ordered my last from them.

I have gone to the Midway site a few times only to find numerous dead links and would have to refresh the current link before the next link would work if it did at all. I think that I spent more time doing this than I did trying to shop on their site. I like so many others have gone to Brownells or drove down to the Sportsmans warehouse for the things that need.

I rarely ever order from Midway, too many backorders and overpriced shipping. Plus Midway's server is super slow, I have high speed DSL and it still took 15-20min to place a small order from them.

There was a time they had free shipping, and great sales every month but that's been awhile.

MtnHtr

Hmm, seems like there are more than just a few unhappy customers. Or, should I say ex-customers?

Are you serious?

So how does EVERY other company in the firearms business avoid this "evil" situation you came up with?

I guess maybe you didn't read my original post. I called Midway on the phone after I couldn't place the order on their web site and told them I was away from home and they still wouldn't ship here. If they mistrust me that much perhaps they should have never given me an account in the first place.

In order for someone else to impersonate me they would have to have all of my account info for both my bank/credit card (it's on file with Midway) and my Midway account account number, user name and password...plus have a phone that would identify them on caller ID as Rick B----- and display the same phone number that Midway has on file for me.

If somebody has all that info of mine, using my dealer discount at Midway is about the last thing I would be worrying about.

I was a devout Midway fan until the prices started going up and I noticed they shipped backordered items separately and billed a second shipping entry....That did me in. No longer can you get a deal with them once you compare the total price spent with what it would cost to buy from Cabelas and others with either free or flat rate shipping. Potterfield made his riches...I just hope he saved it wisely. Many hunters/shooters on many boards I frequent are stating the same as on here about giving up on being a Midway customer.

Midway will also not budge on price matching. BTDT. The only positive note I can say is that Midway's customer service did treat me right when things were wrong. No complaints there. CS must cost an awful lot these days.

I know that they don't have near the inventory but Natchez Shooters Supply is very good to deal with. Back a few months ago I ordered a rest that they had on sale for a very good price. Sent them a check for it as I do not like using a credit or debit card the first time I order from any company. The order was sent the same or next day that they recieved the check. A few days after the order came I got a check in the mail from them for $1.?? for overpayment of the shipping. Great customer service in my book.

I have since placed one or two more orders from them and had no problems. They will get the business that I used to give Midway if at all possible. Course I do still prefer to buy locally to support the little guys.

Dave.

I've been looking at the Elite 3200 and/or the Browning 2x7 made by Bushnell at Natchez. Unfortunately, they don't ship to GA, TN, or AL. Anyone know what's up with the shipping policy to these three states?
Thanks,
GeoW

Sinclair international, owned by Brownells, is a excellent place to by reloading equip., if you order 5 or more boxs of bullets you save a good amount of money, shipping is fast too.

If there is a back order, shipping is free on the later items, from my experiance.

Probably don't want to compete with retailers in their area.

Paul

I order from Midway when they are the only ones that carry what I need, which is seldom.

Graf's and Lock, Stock & Barrel will mail stuff to me in a flat rate box, Midway will not.

And frankly, the 'discount' at Midway is becoming a less and less spread between that and retail..

From what I've been told they don't want to compete w/ other stores/retail outlets/etc that they supply product to in those states. Makes sense. Bummer, as I've missed out on some truly sweet deals b/c of this policy.

Larry Potterfield here. Thanks for the kind words and please allow me to provide some answers on backorders, postage and dealer delivery addresses.

Yes, backorders set a record high about 10 days ago. Despite our best planning efforts, every March for as long as I can remember has been this way. The culprit is record sales at MidwayUSA, unprecedented slow delivery from some key vendors and the limited availability of ammunition and components - especially the slower moving items, caused by war needs and high prices of raw materials. Backorders are going down and we should be back to normal by the end of April, except on ammo and components, and some items like AR-15 parts.

Concerning postage, yes we do charge a little more than the UPS or USPS rate card for your order - and yes,the rates continue to increase. The little extra covers insurance, reships, packaging supplies and some other miscellaneous costs. I have never thought of the postage account as being a profit center. Yes, we do charge separate postage on backorders. I realize it isn't your fault that we are out of stock on an item. Perhaps it is our fault, but certainly not for lack of planning. Actually, it is mostly just a matter of the vendors not being able to ship their products in a timely manner, due mostly to increased demand. MidwayUSA could certainly pay that postage, but we would have to make it up somewhere - raising the postage rates or raising the prices. I don't personally like either one of those options better than the one we currently use, and hope you share that that preference with me.

Concerning dealer delivery addresses, I know this doesn't affect many of you, but here is the answer. We had a number of dealers who set up selling accounts on Ebay, Gunbroker and Auction Arms and a couple even had their own web sites. These dealers would price their products a little below ours. When they got an order, they would place it with us for shipment to their Customer. Now, we don't make a lot of profit on a dealer order, so helping competitors get started, using our large inventory and efficient delivery system didn't make a lot of business sense to us. So, we now ship to dealers at their business address only.

Anyway, those are the answers to the main concerns expressed here and I appreciate the opportunity to present our side of the story.

This is my 31st year at MidwayUSA, and yes it is a great success story. But success has come because we have always been focused on doing the very best for our Customers and success is only sustained with the same attitude.

You know that I personally hunt, shoot, reload and do some of my own gunsmithing. The Company and the Potterfield Family have always supported the NRA and the shooting sports community. I am no different than most of our Customers, I just have a different job, and come to work every day trying to do it better.

Thanks for your time and your business!

Aim Straight,

Larry Potterfield
President/CEO
MidwayUSA

Appreciate you checking in and telling your side of the story. Welcome to the site.

The only issues I have had with Midway are:

1. Backorder shipping charges exceeding the cost of the item - a $2.00 item costing $6.00 to mail. They "should" verify that you still want the item before shipping it to you and charging you credit card.

2. The cost with shipping is often higher than Graf's or other places. Flat rate shipping charges on heavy items like bullets are not that expensive.

I have to say that everyone there that I have talked to or dealt with via email has been great and very accomodating.

Hey, Larry.

If you recall we spoke about your shipping policies at the Reno ACGG show two years ago. As I stated on here, you were very kind and gracious and you even took my email address and had a gentleman named Eric contact me.

Well...despite your's and Eric's assurances that it was taken care of the next order I placed for Remington 700's actions resulted in the exact same problem. Your company will not ship serialized receivers/frames, etc to any address except for the FFL premises address. As it just so happened, right when this was going on with you I got my newsletter from the BATF and one of the FAQ's had to do with this very topic. I sent your office a copy of that newsletter where it states quite plainly that an FFL holder can have a different shipping/mailing address to receive firearms other than the business premises address. As I pointed out to you, Eric and your staff my mailing address is right on my FFL under (of all places) "mailing address." This is not something that I added on, it is printed on there by the BATF.

As for your other policy that was the last straw for me and what initiated this thread...all I can say is that it shouldn't be all that difficult for your sales people to differentiate between someone ordering a truck full of stuff that they want to sell on e-Bay and a dealer ordering one item.

Larry, I admire the fact that you took a home business and turned it into a multi-million dollar affair, and after meeting you in person I do not have a bad thing to say about you personally. However, in my humble opinion, the lack of concern for customer relations at your company is just unacceptable.

In addition Larry...you can buy the exact same product I tried to buy from Midway (a Leica 1200 Range finder) at Amazon.com for the exact same price as your dealer price. Several other places also sell them retail for your dealer price.

Since I have (or had) an account with Midway I thought (silly me) that I would be loyal and give my business to what I thought was a friendly company where I had an account.

Mr. Potterfield:

Regarding postage and your statement:

"Concerning postage, yes we do charge a little more than the UPS or USPS rate card for your order - and yes,the rates continue to increase. The little extra covers insurance, reships, packaging supplies and some other miscellaneous costs. I have never thought of the postage account as being a profit center."

With the last order I made with you, and which I cancelled when I saw the shipping charges, the postage was more than double what it would cost to send the same package to you, and also more than the cost of the item.

"packaging supplies and some other miscellaneous costs."

When you are in the mail order business, you are going to have expenses for packaging supplies, and also the expense of paying someone to package the item. That is to be expected, but double what I would have to pay to ship the same item to you? No way.

I have made a few handcrafted items, and I have always, when I even charged shipping at all, only charged what it cost me. I didn't try to make a profit on the shipping.

I could make a pretty good living selling to you goods for my purchase price, then charging you double my shipping cost to ship them to you.

Sorry, but I just don't buy your reasoning for the high shipping costs.

"The little extra"

How about more than double?

I think it would also be appropriate to mention that a good portion of the back orders are for products made by companies that are owned by Midway. I don't have the list of those companies in front of me but it is pretty extensive if I recall.

As for "not much profit" on dealer orders...that is almost comical. As I already pointed out, a Google search came up with numerous stores whose retail price was exactly the same as Midways dealer price on the item I tried to order from them. Their shipping was far less, and they would ship the damned thing to me anywhere I wanted them to.

Comparing Prices? Remember, Graf & Sons pays the freight!

Midway used to to that also...in fact it was one of the policies that launched the business from small to large.

Larry,
Thanks for responding. The response shows you have an interest in what customers are saying.

However, I do disagree with the shipping policy on backordered items. It has made me second guess an entire order when everything isn't in stock due to the shipping practices. Many times, this has sent me elsewhere to buy.

You mentioned shipping is a cost center and no revenue is made. I do believe you on this. However, how many millions in net revenue are needed by the Potterfield family before business suffers b/c you want a net zero in shipping and don't want to absorb some of the cost? Instead, lack of planning on Midway's behalf is passed on to the customer.

Instead of passing the shipping on to the customer, why not use Wal-Mart tactics of being the biggest in the business and holding vendors feet to the fire? Let them absorb some of the cost when missing declared delivery deadlines.

The shipping costs entailed by Midway today easily put your company at the top of the list in terms of cost comparative shopping with other online sales companies. This has caused me to shop around instead of being allegiant to Midway as I have in the past.

99.9% of companies don't order gun and shooting related gifts for their employees, clients, or customers either. It's a business client deal with Midway. Ordinary mortals like myself can have stuff sent to whatever address we choose - at least on the internet orders I normally do. FFL clients by virtue of the document they have on file have a BATFE connection. I'm sure every company prefers not to lure trouble to their doorstep. In a big company like Midway, that is probably easier avoided by using a simple blanket policy.

One can do business with smaller, more personal companies and I sometimes do. Often they don't have the inventory or consequent selection. Midway does have a better website than do most other web based shooting supply places and you also can tell what is in stock or not when you place the order. Further, you know what it will cost to ship the backorder if there is one. I wish other customers helped pay the freight to Alaska. That really bites if you want to complain about shipping fees. I do like the fact that you know exactly what is in stock or not when you make an internet order.

You know it's always amusing to me that people who decry government regulations and restrictions on the firearms industry are so often people who seem to have absolutely no problem when people within the industry add even more ridiculous restrictions into the mix.

A wise man once told me that the fate of a liar is that they can never believe anything that others tell them. Perhaps something similar is at work with people who are always assuming that someone is out to screw them over.

Perhaps, if Mr. Potterfield is so worried about this and has had such bad experiences with it, then he should just abolish dealer discounts all together and sleep restfully at night knowing that the black helicopters aren't going to be hovering over his house any more!

I'm still curious as to why Midway will not ship in FLAT RATE boxes to Alaska. Grafs and Lock, Stock will.

I have much respect for Larry for putting himself in the crosshairs with this thread. When I first got into reloading I poured thousands of dollars from various suppliers and never had an issue with Midway. I do not understand peoples complaints on higher prices or shipping rates. We all have the capacity to search out the best deals so why get negative towards Midway?

Midway has the right to choose their policies and I appreciate Larry coming forward. The fact that he joined the fire to give his position just means he listens to what we have to say.

The market will decide.

Wade

WOW!. What a simple thing, buy from whom you are pleased with, eh? Just like meat and veggies at the grocery store and booze at your favorite liquor store.... Somehow you landed on with whom you shop.

I'm not negative about Midway. Ordered from them for years, but the cost of shipping to Alaska is better handled with Flat Rate USPS. A few companies will work with me on that, some won't.

It's 69.7 miles from my house to Brownell's. I liked to go to the store and pick up items but now with the price of gas I can have it shipped for a lot less. I can see why Midway has raised their shipping prices. Can you drive to somewhere and get it cheaper? This does not fix Rick B's problem but we all know what the price of gas is doing to the cost of anything in this country. kwg

Midway raising their shipping prices has never been the issue here.

The issue has been that Midway charges about double or more to ship something to you than it would cost for you to ship it to Midway.

Personally, I don't care to pay Midway $12.00, or more to ship a $10.00 item to me.

Midway calls it shipping and handling. What is handling? Picking it up and putting it in a box? Anyone, from grocery stores to stores that sell shooting supplies is going to have to handle their products. Do you pay a grocery store for handling a can of beans when they put it on the shelf?

Actually, you do, but the cost is figured in the price of the can of beans. You don't pay extra for "handling" it when you check out.

Yep.

3000 bullets from Lock, Stock and Barrel will cost me $13.95 to be mailed. Cabelas will charge me $16.95 and Midway will charge me $61.

kwg,

Maybe some on here have misunderstood where I'm coming from on this or perhaps I'm just not real good at expressing it.

I'm not trying to tell Larry Potterfield or his business to do anything...my only point in starting this thread was to alert other FFL gunsmiths that have Midway accounts that Mr. Potterfield obviously thinks we are all a bunch of crooks trying screw him, instead of loyal customers trying to give him our business. That's a pretty sad (read that as stupid with a capital S) attitude to take towards gunsmiths who spend thousands and thousands of dollars at Midway each and every year...and are in the position to recommend Midway products to their customers.

Mr. Potterfield has made his choice, as he is certainly entitled to do...and I have made mine. Not one penny of my money or my customers money will be spent at Midway EVER again.

Rick:

I understand what you are saying. You have trouble with where Midway will ship to.

I don't have an FFL, so I don't and won't have the problem that you have

I might have sort of stolen your thread when I chimed in and gave my opinion.

When the incident I described took place, it was sort of aggravating, then when I saw your post, I thought I would add what I thought was another problem with Midway, and get it out in the open.

I don't like dealing with people (read companies, organizations, or whatever) where making a profit at all cost is the most important consideration. I know all businesses are in business to make a profit. I understand and accept that, but I do wish they would do it out in the open because I do not like doing business with a company that secretly tries to make an additional profit, above normal markup, by adding in hidden costs such as double or triple the actual cost of shipping.

I would much rather deal with a company who is up front about both their prices and also their shipping costs. Actual shipping costs.

Many years ago, when Sears put out catalogs and sold mail order, they ate you up on shipping charges, so this is not something new.

Hopefully, Larry will read all of the negative comments on this thread and take them to heart.

I want ALL businesses to prosper, ans it's just my opinon, but I truly believe that we gunsmith/dealers help companies like Midway and Brownells do so by buying thousands of dollars worth of their products every year.

As a gunsmith I am probably going to buy far more from these companies than will your average retail customer...and call me silly, but I think that is worth something to them.

Brownells seems to naturally realize this and they go out of their way to keep gunsmiths happy while Midway, through Larry's own words, hold us in contempt and feels like we are all out to screw him over.

Well,

I just got off the phone with Midway, trying to set up an annount for my reserve squadron to take adavantage of the military discount.

three phone calls and lots of irritation later, I don't think I'll order from them again. it was just too hard.

Yep, I remember Sear's outrageous shipping charges. They would not tell you until you went to merchandise pick-up and then you received your surprise. Sears ripped off alot of soccer moms and old ladies back then!

Sears Auto Centers received national attention when their mechanics and service managers were caught on film faking oil leaks and other defects on customer's autos. Sears made a pledge to change their corrupt ways but that was a lie! The local Sears Auto Center here in town does not list actual prices for their services, they base their charges on the moment. How about $119.00 for tire rotation and re-balance for 4 tires? I laughed and left..........

As for Midway, you think the company would buy a decent server or fire whoever is in charge of their IT dept. What a joke! They must be off hunting in Africa most of the time spending their hard earned dollars!

MtnHtr

Don't hold your breath!

MtnHtr

Midway has received my last order,period. They have put it to me for the last time. I am still limping from the last s------g I got from them on shipping what they didn't have in stock.
Perhaps if Mr Potterfield spent more time stocking what was needed instead of making the nice commercials thanking us for the business, his business wouldn't be going down the tubes, like it will.
He should get somebody on the ball to look at all the back orders and excess shipping they charged and send everybody an apology with a check for the overcharges.
Simple fixit if he would do it. Anybody think he will?

Guys,
I thought I would share a similar thread on another board:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=2618636

Some of you guys like Pssing into the wind don't ya??? Time to through some gas on the fire here as I know I'll probably just get flamed

Ive done business with Midway for several years, probably not as long as some of you. I've also ordered from others, mostly on line, but sometimes over the phone. I also have some experience on the other side of the coin having worked for Gander Mountain when they had a catalog business out of Wilmot Wis.

I view Midway as one of the best of class for the following reasons:

1) Selection: I have Master Catalog #31 sitting on my desk. 969 pages of Shooting, reloading, and gunsmith stuff. No fishing lures, no camo toilet seats, no beef jerky. Back in the day Gander Mountain Catalog would have a fairly decent selction of reloading, shooting, and optics but nothing like Midways. I wonder how many SKU's (stock keeping units) Midway manages.

2)Pricing: Yeah, sometimes the pricing isn't the best... but the mix of pricing is pretty good. I'd say 20-25% maybe on the higher side, 50% of the items are in the Zone, and 25-30% are on the lower side. I've signed up for their email flyers and get hardcopies in the mail, and you always know that any one time they have something on sale.

3. Industry support. The NRA roundup idea is a great idea, both from a marketing point, and also knowing that supporting the NRA is also supporting Midway's customers. - I don't think Amazon donates anything to the NRA, but I may be wrong;)

4) Private Label product. I like the Tipton and Caldwell products as well thought out designs, enough so that Midway's sells them to their competitors.

5) Website. I'm a confirmed internet shopper and I find the Midway site to be among the best. Searching for product is easy, and once found, the information for each product is great. It also allows you to add the product to a wish list (my current wish list is at $500+). As for backorders, the site tells you at the time whether the product is instock or not...I don't backorder anything but use the reminder button for wehn they get it back in stock..



OK, let's talk about the beefs everyone has:

Shipping costs: If you shop online you know exactly what the shipping costs are. If you don't like the shipping don't order or find additional items to make it more cost efficient.

Why should it cost you $10 to ship a $6 item?? Because it's not efficient for a cataloger to ship 1 item. The cost to process the payment, print the pick ticket, pick the item for the order, and pack the one item, and create the shipping is not significantly less than doing the same for 20 items. Retailers are more efficient in processing larger orders and try to incentivise customers to place larger orders (but probably less frequently).

Flat Rate Boxes: I do think Midway should look at a Flat Rate Box on bullets and/or other items and could promote this. However, I think there maybe more loss/theft, which might have to be offset somewhere.

Shipping policy: Midway sells some items only to be sold to FFL's. This can be tricky when you start putting drop shipping policies in place that hundreds of employees need to follow. Why would Larry add the risk of having a screw-up in shipping to a non-ffl addressee, that could jeopardise his overall business? It's not a matter of trust,,,it's a matter of risk.

When I worked at Gander, they had some very forgiving policies that a portion of customers abused. They had 100% Satisfaction Guarantee on products and a very liberal return policy. Some of the abuses became known as the Renting program. for example:

We had a guy buy a pair of Rocky Boots and returned them 6 months later saying they leaked and that the boots should hold up better. (they were covered in concrete). They sent him a new pair at No charge...6 months later he returns the 2nd pair and gets a third pair for the same reason... They finally told the guy to move on after he tried to return the 3rd pair covered in concrete like the previous 2 pair....the guy got 3 pairs for the cost of one.....


Gander literally got dozens of high end optics back in early December, afer the hunting season, from customers who didn't like the clarity of their Zeiss or Swarovski that they bought in August.... They used them for their once-in-a lifetime hunt and didn't have a use for them after that...so they got their money back in time for Xmas.

I could tell you a dozen of stories (including the one about a porta-potty with a gift in it), that would make you wonder about some people's upbringing.


Generally if their is a policy in place, the reason is not to punish your own customers, but is in place because some azzholes abused a good program to the point where it cost everyone.


OK, let the flames begin.

Don

Don,

Not a bad post, at all. I like Graf's myself. They have a great website, list what is in stock, lower dealer prices and lower shipping rates. If they don't have what I need then Brownells or Sinclair Int'l does. Or Powder Valley. Or Shooter's Pro Shop. Or......

We have choices!

MtnHtr

Okay, Don...flame number one!

Did you actually read the description I posted about Midway refusing to ship FFL only items to the "mailing address" that is prominently displayed on the face of my FFL...and is also listed in my account records at Midway, and also shows up as the mailing address on their web site order form that shows up when I am logged on????? That mailing address was not put on my FFL by me, it was put on there by the issuing authority (ATF) when they printed the license. When the ATF sent me the damned license it was sent to my "mailing address."

That IS NOT "drop shipping." Drop shipping is when a small retailer takes orders for products that he does not keep in inventory and has the business that does keep the inventory ship the item to his customer.

Considering Midways retail prices compared to their dealer prices (not to mention their shipping costs) a guy would have to do a HUGE volume of business to make much money by using Midway as a supplier and "drop shipping" facility. In addition, as I found out, there are numerous retail stores that sell many of the same products that Midway sells at the exact same price Midway offers to dealers as a "discount."





I am a gunsmith, NOT a retailer.

Flame no. 2

"Why should it cost you $10 to ship a $6 item?? Because it's not efficient for a cataloger to ship 1 item. The cost to process the payment, print the pick ticket, pick the item for the order, and pack the one item, and create the shipping is not significantly less than doing the same for 20 items."

Why offer to sell only one item,if that be the case. Have a minimum order requirment.

Or better yet, as a favor to your customers, absorb part of the cost of the shipping of the one item, therefore creating a satisfied customer who might order several items the next time.

The way it is now, instead of attracting new customers and keeping the old ones satisfied, they are allienating both old and new customers.

There comes a time when all reputable businesses might not show a profit, or even lose money on small orders. That is just the cost of doing business, but I get the impression that Midway is trying to squeeze the last penny profit out of a sale, or else save that last penny profit regardless of what that penny cost them on down the road.

Sorry Rick,
This appeared to me that you wanted it shipped to a place other than your business premise or your mailing address.

Numbers 1 thru 7,


If you put a minimum order requirement in, than what happens when you absolutely need a part or product ASAP? I know guys that have stuffed delivered to hunting camps when an item broke or they forgot it at home...
Also Midway shows you the shipping cost at anytime during the order process using a variety of delivery methods.... YOu either can except it or choose not to...but you can't say they "suprized" you with a unexpected shipping charge. (Unless YOU choose to accept a backorder on an item).