Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Modern in-line capabilitys....

Tacks,

I'm quite new here myself. I was a Shooters.com refugee and the Campfire hasn't thrown me out yet. I live in Ham Lake, about 20-miles north of Minneapolis.

I've got a daughter living near St. Cloud, so if you see a guy hassling her - shoot him.

Rollin, a deer can move or take a step, causing a miss or wound at 50 yards, just as easy as it can at 300. Think about how many you have had in your sights at spitting distance that left you scratching your head, because they moved so fast. That comparison you made doesn't hold water.

Wind is not a big deal in most hunting situations. If the wind is blowing hard enough to seriously effect your projectile, you are NOT going to be able to hold the sights still enough to make an accurate kill. Animals don't move at all when it is windy either. Wind is WAY over rated in my opinion. If you don't believe me, actually get out and shoot a lot at 300, 400, and even 500 yards. If the wind is blowing enough to make your bullet "drift" at those ranges, you can't hold the sights of the gun on the target....and it is a no shoot. A guy that is a "shoot at everything, regardless of wind, snow, lack of skills, range, poor pojectiles"...etc. isn't going to get his mind changed. He has no more chance of wounding something at 300 yards than he does at 50 yards, because he SUCKS! BY FAR more animals are wounded each year at close range than are at long range. Several national statistics prove that. The hype in the magazines is what is going to make joe average buy a laser beam shooter...PERIOD. That is their intention, not game management or wounding game. He sucks at hunting and shooting, but the new WONDER gun will fix all that....in his mind. Believe me, if he missed before, he will miss again. Nothing has changed. That is the point I am making. Most guys can shoot all day long at a deer at 200 yards and never come close. You can hand them a custom muzzle loader that will shoot half inch groups all day long at 200 yards and they will still miss. I have seen this countless times. Just don't sterio type me or others into that same class or "think" we should limit ourselves to your 'ethics' or shooting abilities. We are all different and of varying abilities. Flinch

Flinch,.... I imagine thet at one time'er nuther you've HAD to've heard 'bout "TIME OF FLIGHT". Thet's the time it takes for a bullet to travel from the muzzle to a "give'n yardage". All of us BPCR shooters know the term "TOF" well.

The deer here in Wyomin, don't jest stand in "one place" all day long, munch'n the same blade'a grass over'n, over'n, over,.... instead they "MOVE". (or, maybe yore talk'n 'bout them "decoys" used by game officers back east, to catch poachers)

Let's say thet yore use'n a rifle (muzzleloader) thet has far less MV to "start" with, then what yore evidently used to, and the bullet has a terrible "ballistic coeffecent" and shed's velocity VERY fast, PLUS has a "trajectory" like'a rainbow,..... "ONLY THEN" will you understand thet "THE LONGER THE RANGE,.... THE HIGHER THE PERCENTAGE IS, FOR "SOMETHIN TO GO WRONG"!! (remember ol' Murphy??)

"WIND",..... well what can I say??.. 'cept thet, the wind WILL literaly,.... "blow tha hell out'a a big slow-move'n bullet"!!..... (I figgered everbuddy KNEW thet!!)

You mentioned sumpthin 'bout,..... "hand'n a feller a custom muzzleloader thet will shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards all day long"????? All I got to say 'bout "thet one",..... is, "lay off tha sauce" buddy!!.. ther AIN'T "no such" muzzleloader!!!!!!!!!!!

With the "ethics" you have,.... I'm sure glad yore shoot'n centerfires,..... 'cause I "for one" wouldn't want you give'n "REAL MUZZLELOADERS" a "BAD NAME"!!!!!!!!!!

Rollinblock, you are as dense as fine walnut. You missed my entire point, but I can't put it any simpler, not even for you. I bet you don't run 50 rounds a year through your "muzzle loader" so I don't expect you to be able to hit [bleep] past 40 yards, but try and keep up, will ya? Keep reading magazines and spinning yarns and leave the real hunting to the real hunters. Oh wait, you can't read, nor write for that matter. I appoligize for typing beyond your means. Is that a Wyoming thing, or just a by product of years of inbreeding? Go back to your easy chair and try to decipher some more words. I am done trying to educate you. Some things just can't be done. Flinch

Flinch,..... OK!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bye!!

Flunk - I suppose there's a bigger horse's *ss than you roamin around internet boards, but as far as I can tell you probably make the top 10. Congratulations.

Regards, sse

Oh Man! Flinch!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ;your clueless on this one ain't ya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
The man you just rebutt can(could) claim 5th nationwide for "practical" shooting, aka: shooting live as hunting situation's only,open iron sights. but he won't,once you've done it there's no need to brag.It's just another fact. The value of the gun's he's built,traded, and passed on to others probably exceeds your yearly income. If you'd stop tryin ta teach'im,ya might learn something.
Forgive young "flinch" folks,"hubris" is something we have all gone through already <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> it's ok, he'll be fine in a few years.
best wishes allin ya,tacks

Flinch,



I will agree with you that wind is not a consideration in "all" hunting situations. However, drift definitely is a consideration on 300-350 yard shots with a muzzleloader with even a gentle 5-10mph wind blowing. You may want to look at the 10MPH deflection of even the best, high-BC projectiles for muzzleloaders that exit the muzzle between 1800-2000fps.



To give you an idea, the highest BC projectile available for a .50Cal ML is the 300Gr Dead Center bullet (.44Cal & .371BC) and powered by 100Gr 777 will exit the muzzle at 1850fps, give or take.



In a full value crosswind of 10mph at 350 yards, even this bullet will drift just shy of 21 inches and this is a best case scenario for a .50Cal, blackpowder-capable rifle. 21" is more than enough to miss the animal completely depending upon his position or far worse, a wounded animal.



And yes, I shoot in the wind "more than a little" from ranges of 600-1000 yards at the highest levels of national competition. So, I actually do know a little bit about BC, drift, TOF, etc. from a first-hand perspective. Bullet drift is Honest-To-God, real-world stuff.

Flinch says: You can hand them a custom muzzle loader that will shoot half inch groups all day long at 200 yards and they will still miss. I have seen this countless times.

Sorry. A ML rifle that can shoot 1/4 MOA (1/2" groups @ 200 yards) "All Day Long" simply does not exist on our planet.

But he's seen it "countless" times.
This whole thread is full of exagerations and best case,worst case scenarios.
Throw all the hypathetical crap aside, for the masses a modern , scoped, pellet shooting or 777 shooting in line is a 150 yard weapon and not even that for most.
If someone has a sincere desire to want to shoot further than that and the self motivation to do the load work/ shooting time a fast twist .45, heavy conicals, and heavy charges of real BP will make a real 200 yard weapon with open sites non the less.
A scoped in line and the highest BC bullets and you can tack another 50 yards on that.

Here's sumpthin I posted over on "Greybeard's site" pretain'n to "long-range shots on game",..... after be'n accused of "hate'n modified centerfires"!!

TCAS,.... The "traditionalists' comments" have nuthin to do with "hate".

In fact here's how I would sum this subject up "EACH TIME" it appears on a web-site .......

MR. Inline Shooter, says ..... "my inline-rifle will preform great on big game at 250-300 yards and maybe even further".

MR. I'ma Traditionalist, says ..... "WOW, jest like a regular centerfire-rifle HUH"??

Mr. Inline Shooter, says ..... "OH NO!!.. ther ain't NO DIFFERENCE 'tween my inline rifle and yore traditional rifle,...... thet's why ther BOTH legal dur'n the SPECIAL muzzleloader-seasons",... even "IF" yore's is "only" adequate out to 125 yards. Besides,... us REAL hunters like shoot'n long-range with our inline rifles ever chance we git, jest like we do with our regular centerfire-rifles" !!

By this time, Mr. I'ma Tradionalist, is a "mite confused", and trys to "pin" the other fella down in order to make some "sense" out of the "senseless-babble",..... and Mr. Inline Shooter, SCREAMS .... "You hate me and my inline-rifle, and yore also STUPID and you DRESS FUNNY"!!

Aww Jeez! no wonder we're have'in so much trouble!
That didn't happen on "Grey Breads" site!
It happened on this site!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Don't worry rondo,, we'er all in this together,,,,

one at a tyme man,one at a tyme. plant the seed deep,then it will gather root and grow.:)

Rollin, if you would take half a second to read what I am writing, instead of thinking, you would learn something. When I said, "deer don't move in the wind" I meant they aren't up around feeding. They are tucked into thickets and brush filled draws and NOT moving around feeding....DUH! If they are up and moving or feeding, then it would be a really tough shot and a no shoot situation.

Okay, next point. I know there aren't any 1/2" shooting muzzle loaders. I was using that as an extreme example of a guy that will NEVER hit his hat with a good gun or a bad gun, because he lacks the skill...understand????? I know that is a tough question to answer for you to follow.

Next point, I don't shoot round balls or blunt pistol bullets in Muzzleloaders, because they suck. I shoot the highest BC available, which holds velocity better, which decreases, in your words "Time of flight" boy, that's a mouth full. ALL projectiles are affected by wind, but the higher the BC, and velocity, the less they are affected. Hopefully you have read that in one of your magazines somewhere. You still with me???? If the wind is blowing past 5 mph, it is a no shoot with a muzzloader past 150 yards. I also know how far my bullet will drift in certain wind conditions. I am sure you are familiar with this as well. I also know how far to "lean" into the wind at such times and still make the shot.

Oh, and one more thing, statistics have proven that MORE game are wounded at close range than long range. Tell me Murphy has never kicked you in the ass at close range on a "gimmee" shot where you choked? I know he has, so what is the difference between long and short range, other than the fact that more game is shot at within 100 yards, thus increasing the number of wounded animals. I hope you stayed with me long enough to get through this. It isn't a picture book, but it is the best I can do. Calm down and get off your thrown. Flinch

Aw Flinch,, it's a differnt school,,take away the range finder,chronograph,and Ballistic co-efficiat chart's.an turrents,,battries an such,,that stuff all works really well.!! But it's not the answer to all peoples goal,
I'm just a working grunt, raise my son the best I can,with what little I got. I teach him one shot at a tyme, prb,hand loaded and learn from that. ONE SHOT. By the time the 10 yr old get's to purchase all the extra toy's needed to shoot "flinch" style, it'll be too easy for him.
Why do you need to shoot at 300 yrds? Cain't get any closer?
If your really into "Long Range" ML shooting,none of the gun's we speak about here can do that,, long range is smacking a 17" Bull at 1000M, 48" nine ring.
To quote your "pm" your not a 5yr old "laughing his ass off",,it's more like a 15yr old "blowing his own horn",
funny thing is, ya got all the answers,but nobody's askin a question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Flinch,.... If deer only feed, "when the wind ain't blow'n",.. ther'd be a bunch of hungry deer here in Wyoming.

"WHY",..... do you feel the "NEED",... to use "extreme examples"???? (some of us consider "such" as "lie'n")

I shoot "real" muzzleloaders and BPCR's,.... not "modified-centerfires" (inlines) and BTSP bullets.

"IF",..... statistics PROVE,.. "more game are wounded at short range than long range",.... then STATISTICALY those "same shots",.... had they ben taken at long range,... would have ben "COMPLETE MISSES",..... kind'a makes me wonder also, HOW are such statistics attained "if" the game is never recovered.

You modern high-tech lover's,..... ALWAYS blame wounds on "bullet failure",..... "NO SUCH THING EXISTS" in the world of roundball or cast conicals!!

and,.... "IF" the statistics you spew forth are accurate,.... then ALL game shot at 25 yards,... would have a percentage of "100% WOUNDS"!!

Yore "statistics" don't add-up!!
I don't read magazines!!

and,... "NO",.. I've never "clutched" on a close-range "gimmee" shot,...... however, "YOU" seem to be familiar with thet "scenario"!!

Now quit read'n all thet "statistics gabbage" and go practice yore close-range shoot'n!!

OK I GUESS THIS IS ANOTHER SITE WITH NO MODERATION,,SO WHY DON'T YOU BOY'S GO FIGHT SOMEWHARES PRIVATE!
GOOFY [bleep]!
BOTH OF YA HAVE SOMEKIND OF "PUBLIC""ISSUES"! DON'T YA!
grow-up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />,,[bleep] this site,,geez,,:(,,delete,no loss,,,

Tacks,.... You can call me all the names ya want (????),.... but, it don't change "common logic"!!

If,... ALL "debates" wher held in "private",.... how would the "public" ever draw ther own "conclusions",... of what is the real "TRUTH of the MATTER"????

"...and yore also stupid and you DRESS FUNNY"

Geeze RolllingB, was I the only one who suffered traumatic flashbacks from his early social life when reading that line?

I hate to see anyone run off this place. No-one's asking me neither but... my own take on this is that in-lines are ugly as sin. However lots of folks like them or they wouldn't sell.

Will in-lines ruin muzzleloaders seasons? Personally I doubt it, even if they really do invent a 300 yard in-line the non-hunting crowd will never notice, and those that are opposed to hunting will be opposed to hunting regardless.

As far as in-lines outranging slugs in slug only areas, somehow I don't see an epidemic of high-powered in-line bullets putting holes in suburban tract homes a couple of miles away from the shooter. Once again those non-hunters opposed to hunting will still be opposed, the rest won't notice the difference.

What WILL happen though is that all those people buying them ugly in-lines will get out and hunt more, and I figure that anything that increases the numbers of active hunters in this day and age is a good thing.

Will some of these guys believe the hype and take 300 yard potshots? Yepper but I submit that those same type of people would do the same with an iron-sight sidelock.

States will always have the option of limiting whats legal, just like Pa. with their flintlock round ball restriction (is that still in effect?) which gave us that excellent TC .50 cal flinter.

I figure we got enough enemies already. Just my humble opinion.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher,.... HA! HA!HA!,.. I think Mr. Inline Shooter was actually talk'n 'bout "buckskins or weskits",.. when he said "dress funny"!

I'd be real innerested to know,.... how many states have ADDED restrictions since the inlines have "advanced" due to technology,... we all know thet PA has RELAXED ther restrictions on muzzleloaders because of ther abundant deer population,... but I'd like to see,.. the "other side of the coin",... provide'n ther is one!!

SO,.... Here's a question, for anybuddy read'n this "thread":....

Has anyone's STATE "tightened" it's restrictions on modern inline muzzleloaders "due" to any of the new'er technological advances in recent years?????????????????????????????????????????

I think any replies,... will also be of "interest" to anyone think'n of hunt'n in other states with ther "newest/latest" inline rifle.

Take care Birdwatcher!!,.. and have a good/safe "Thanksgive'n"!!!!

No restrictions in WI at this time, but we have not had a season that many years. We are allowed inlines, no scopes greater than 1X and the season immediately follows the general firearm season.



I do not believe we are under threat of having our season reduced or limited in any way. It seems like the only whiners in our state are the hardcore traditionalists, much like the traditional archers did when the compound hit the scene in the late 60's. They got over it and the archery seasons remain as they were in the early 60's.