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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
Don't normally answer to questions to a question but from probation to up to 30 days for a first time offense and no aggravating circumstances. Google criminal liability and sentencing of parents who allowed minors to drink in their homes and where aggravating circumstances later resulted. There's a Va couple who got 3 years, I believe, when one of the kids left the party and committed vehicular manslaughter. Perfect. We have a real victim here. This is not a mere case of possession, sale or purchase. You make my case for me, my friend. You need a victim for there to be a crime. The person here didn't die from an act of nature.
Parents lose their children over the contributions to their kid's deliquencies such as permitting them to drink and drug.
Again, "contributing to the delinquency of a minor," not mere possession, sale, purchase. Once again, you are making my case for me. I can just sit back and relax while you do so.
You still didn't answer my question but I'll throw in another. Your wonderful child goes to a party where a 21 year old buys her booze and on her way home there is a fatal accident. Your daughter survives, is disfugured and there is a "victimless" dead guy. The 21 year old walks as he only committed a victimless crime that merely involved a financial transaction,right? Now make it pot, coke, meth or whatever your state has deemed a illegal, controlled substance.
The questions to be asked in this case are 1) "is causation established?" and 2) "was the outcome foreseeable?" If yes to both, then you have a legitimate case. If not, then no. That's our legal tradition, i.e., we have a victim and a wrong-doer who caused the victimization, so punishment follows after proof in a court of law.
Hawk, when you hang your shingle, allow me to give you some free, sound advice. If you get a case such as those described above, don't argue your beliefs to a Florida jury. No, they need to be argued to the American people and to our representatives in government first. They are more essentially political arguments than legal ones at this point in our history.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,282
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,282 |
A lot of Mental Patients,who are largley only a threat to themselves,are taking up space in our cells.These people get no treatment or help.At one time ,they were housed in Mental Institutions.Now with no Meds or help they wind up in jail.I am not talking of murders,rapists or strong arm robbers.I am talking of people who have fallen between the cracks of Society,because of the Demise of Mental health care by our Kinder,compassionate government. I am not a Liberal.No way.Facts are facts.I am all for Swift Justice for Dangerous Criminals(The Gallows)But a lot of people taking up space in prisons do not belong there. You are partly right. I work in a prison mental health unit. We have a few guys who simply are so bad they should be in a mental institution. Alot of our nurses and phychs used to work for the ODMH but lost jobs due to cut backs. They know several of these inmates from those institution. The question is, where is the line? Mental illness in it self does not excuse crime. Even in the institution the line between conduct and aspect of mental health is very gray.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
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Perfect. We have a real victim here.
_______________________________________
No it's not yet perfect. Do you feel there should be criminal culpability towards the parents or the 21 year old that gave the minor driver the liquor?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
Take the illegality out of it for whom, Hawkeye? Minors? To whatever extent it is feasible to take illegality out of it, to that extent you reduce the incentive (potential profits) to supply and push.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 90
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 90 |
This artical was in the NY Slimes! You should just ignore it.
Part of the problem is that prison is too easy on the criminals. They should break rocks 8 hours a day, eat soy loaf and have no access to entertainment.
Further more, after 3 violent felonies they should be locked away for good. Additional crimes and they should get the death penalty.
+1
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
Quit throwing cigarette smoking into the mix. It's silly. As to alcohol, it is probably the most prevalent drug involving all crimes committed while under any influence of intoxicants. You are characteristically avoiding my question, but are you suggesting that the Volstead Act should be reinstated?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,681
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,681 |
The amount of the profit is of no significant import. How can anyone who claims to be a Republican and a believer in capitalism and the free market post such tripe. You are sounding a lot like the liberals. The only thing missing is you posting 'it's for the children', but you eem to be arguing for the nanny state. Profit motive is the one and only thing that motivates pushers. Ever look at the rate of drug use in countries that have liberal drug policies? Remove the profit motive and there is no reason for dealers to try to create new customers. As far as instant addiction, how about some cites from the scientific literature to back up those claims? And even in the case of addiction, there are a significant number of addicts who are actually able to function and hold down job - even white collar jobs - for years at a time. Even Rush Limbaugh was a drug addict while hosting a nationally syndicated show.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2006
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I'll keep that in mind when I see guys here complaining about how their homes were burglarizes,guns and jewelry stolen,cars broken into and cleaned out. If you legalized drugs, the users wouldn't have to commit crimes to pay for their addiction.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
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You are not thinking outside the box. If it were up to you, there would be no contributing to the deliquency because it should be legal, as there isn't a victim as of yet.According to your train of thought,there isn't a victim until such time as there is a a tragedy somewhere down the line.
In a drunk driver fatality involving an innocent, you can spend as much time on the causality and foreseeabilty all you like. The prosecutor will quickly blow right by you. If your an adult who permits minors to consume alcohol in your presence, and then one of those minors leave and kills an innocent,I'd be focusing mostly upon mitigation rather than putting all my marbles in a causation and foreseeabilty strategy basket. But, that's just me!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
This isn't a capitalism debate and the transparency of your diversion is obvious and...well, silly.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 7,681 |
Hawk...Are you trying to dance around a position that it should be legal for minors to purchase alcohol and drugs? We regulate the activity of minors for lots of thing. But as someone noted that if drugs were illegal only for those under 18, it's doubtful there would be a large market. What sort of income do minors have. Of course, we do recognize that you are trying to act 'for the children'. You should join the Dems since you know what is best for everyone. Isn't that their creed - that we need big government to take care of us?
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
Avoiding your question? You make me laugh! A question about cigarettes? Don't have the time to respond to that silliness in a legalization of drugs debate.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
Hawk...Are you trying to dance around a position that it should be legal for minors to purchase alcohol and drugs? I don't think I've danced around it. I think I've stated that parents ought to be in charge of their own children. The simple act of selling something is not, in and of itself, a crime, since that simple act, in and of itself, has no victim. It's highly irresponsible, and society ought to condemn folks who do it, but it isn't an actual crime, as I see it, until there is 1) an actual victim (someone harmed) and 2) there is a causal link proximate to the source of the substances in question to the harm caused.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
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Tod...Your naivety is alarming. Your foolishness, premising some of your follow up comments, while typical, lends me to believe you lived a very sheltered life.
Put your comments out there on the political campaign Tod. You'll make RP's polling numbers seem like a landslide majority!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
Perfect. We have a real victim here.
_______________________________________
No it's not yet perfect. Do you feel there should be criminal culpability towards the parents or the 21 year old that gave the minor driver the liquor? Not unless you have 1) a victim, and 2) an unbroken proximately causal link between the actions of the accused and the harm to the victim.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,252
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,252 |
So you follow the same theory as the judge in Maine who gave a child molester 4 months in jail for raping a 4 year old kid over 2 years ?
And you believe the following:
1) Punishment never works.
2) Criminals are not evil. They are just ill or misunderstood or victims.
3) Society is to blame anyway.
Child molestation is an example of an actual crime, as classically understood. The problem is that the majority of folks in prison these days are not guilty of real crimes. Real crimes involve actual victims. Possession and personal use, purchase or sale of items or substances are not real crimes. They might be reasons to suspect an intention to commit a crime, and they might be evidence of a crime, such as the case of the person who declares, "I'm going to buy a gun today because I intend to murder that SOB who fired me." If the guy who fired him is then found shot, and it is discovered that he purchased a firearm the day before, that would be evidence, but the real crime is the actual victimization (the murder), not the purchase of the firearm, yet today lots of folks are in jail for merely purchasing (or possessing, or selling) a firearm, because society decided that in many cases the mere purchase, sale or possession is a crime. That is to say, the law presumes a criminal intent, and punishes that intent in advance of an actual crime. This is not part of our tradition. It's an alien concept that's crept into our system of justice. Only real crimes, like your example of child molestation, ought to be punished by the criminal justice system. You hit dead on TRH. The Social- ist Conservatives want to control the Great Unwashed Middle Class every bit as much as the Socialist Liberals--each are on parallel paths that will ultimately arrive at the same destination. Jacques, I'm with you all the way! Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
Of course, we do recognize that you are trying to act 'for the children'. You should join the Dems since you know what is best for everyone. Isn't that their creed - that we need big government to take care of us
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll certainly make this clear. Republican, Democrat or whatever you really are, I certainly wouldn't want you implementing laws involving the safety of my children.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,252
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,252 |
Of course, we do recognize that you are trying to act 'for the children'. You should join the Dems since you know what is best for everyone. Isn't that their creed - that we need big government to take care of us
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll certainly make this clear. Republican, Democrat or whatever you really are, I certainly wouldn't want you implementing laws involving the safety of my children. How about we just leave it up to the fit parents and keep government out of it except for the most severe, obvious cases? "Let's do it for the children" was far from exclusive to the Democrats--if anything, the Law & Order Republicans were worse about it....... Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043 |
Live it up to the fit parents, huh? You do live in a enclave.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,691 Likes: 15 |
You are not thinking outside the box. If it were up to you, there would be no contributing to the deliquency because it should be legal. Oh, well if the kid in your scenario doesn't actually become a delinquent, then you are correct. No victim in that case, so no crime. But if the kid does in fact become a delinquent (e.g., drops out of school, starts to steal, joins a gang and extorts other kids for money, etc.), and there is an unbroken chain of proximate causation, then you have the basic components for a crime in the classical sense of that word.
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