Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Second Amendment Why George?

I have been working on a petition since the beginning of the year, and posted about here and on the HC forum. I have had several very positive responses and helpful hints from everyone. Not once did I get flamed or start a war with the fellow campers in my quest for help. <P>I don't agree with what every single person here posts, but don't object to peoples opinions either. What I do object to is when people abuse each other for no apparent reason and when "peace" is made, the instigators still keep taking jabs. Enough already George. You seem to be a person of some intelligence so before you lose any more credibility for not letting it go, stop this behavior.<P>People really are willing to listen, and fight for the causes they believe whether it be hunting rights, the right to bear arms, whether or not we subsidize charities etc. They listen especially well when they don't feel as if they have someone's fist down their throat and foot up their ass.<P>If so choose you too can participate in my petition I am working on. If you access the posts from the beginning of the year you can see what it is I am attempting to do, and all the others who have helped out as well. You will see that most of your comments of people not willing to help are inaccurate. I have numerous emails from others who were courteous enough not to clog the system with my requests of intro ideas.<P>I am simply asking you to behave the way your parents would want you to behave, and I am sure they raised you to be respectful of everyone and a big enough man not to stoop to levels unbecoming of men.<P>Toons<P>PS - I would very much appreciate your thoughts and ideas for the petition. Once you review the posts from the beginning of the year I am certain you would have some positive comments which will help me with my cause.<P>------------------<BR>Don't be ashamed to say what you are not ashamed to think.

Toons,<BR> I don't hear you say anything about those members that attacked me.People had a<BR>lot to say when they felt that I was gone but<BR>the minute they found out that I was still here,there was dead silence.When this was<BR>going on why didn't you ask everyone to stop?<BR> You see this is the same problem that I<BR>had before.Why me and not them or why not just all of us? No it was me.Of course those<BR>other members NEVER did anything wrong.Are<BR>we trying to rewrite history?I seem to<BR>remember even you taking a few shots at me on<BR>another posting.What is so different between<BR>you and me? Is it ok for you to do it but not<BR>me? It's not ok for anyone to do it but I guess that was not the case.<BR> Some of you didn't want me at Hunter's<BR>Campfire taling politics.Fine.If you wish to<BR>talk politics with me,no problem.Otherwise<BR>please see yourself back to Hunter's Campfire<BR>and do some talking with some of your friends.I'm not a person who minces words<BR>anymore.If the talkers from Hunter's Campfire<BR>wishes to come here to try and stop these<BR>anti's.I would think that it would be great.<BR>Other wise I would hope that people don't<BR>waste my time.I'm here on this forum for politics and not to listen to someone telling<BR>me to stop.If you wish to join in our talks,<BR>you are more than welcome.Please just don't<BR>continue treating me any differently than the<BR>other members.This has been the problem from the start.<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE

1. I did not any way ask you to stop speaking of politics.<P>2. I in no way took shots at you. I simply asked you to be civil.<P>3. You were the one who came across like the bull in the china shop, thus getting the reaction you did, and the feeling of having to leave all together.<P>4. You should reread my posts. Especially the one I just sent to you. As it was stated you are more than welcome to help me with my petition. And if it is not political enough for you then oh well. <P>Toons<P><BR>PS - never mind...the offer is still good, and as Rick already said discretion really is the better part of valor.<P><P>------------------<BR>Don't be ashamed to say what you are not ashamed to think.

Toons,<BR> This is going no where fast.You stated,<BR>" I simply asked you to be civil."What you<BR>did say to me was,"Enough already George."<BR>That does not sound like asking to me but<BR>telling me.And you still have not answered me<BR>some questions that I had asked you.<BR> Are you going to ask some of the members<BR>in Hunter's Campfire to be civil also?What is<BR>that saying? Oh ya."What is good for the gooseis good for the gander." It doesn't look<BR>good when you ask me to be civil but fail to<BR>ask the other members the samething.Why don't<BR>you ask Rick if you are being fair in this?<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE<BR>

You know what George you are right this is going no where fast. You are not interested in speaking of the petition or helping me or the cause I am trying help. <P>You appear to be more interested in seeing everyone get slapped on the nose as you feel you did.<P>You are so worried about wasting your time and in fact you have been a total waste of mine.<P>I guess it was too much to ask of you to be the better person. No wonder Canada lost all it rights. It had people like you fighting the wrong fight.<P><BR>Toons<P><P>------------------<BR>Don't be ashamed to say what you are not ashamed to think.

George, we do try to be polite. When we responded POLITELY that we did not agree with you, we were not attacking you, we were simply stating our views. We would appreciate it if you did not flame us. <BR> I know this may very well be a losing battle already if you take this the wrong way. I am not against you. I am trying to help you because you won't accomplish anything here if you make yourself a thorn in everybody's side.

Toons and big hunter,<BR> I will put this to rest<BR>when someone tells me that some other members<BR>were also not polite.So far Toons has not<BR>even answered my questions put to her.This is<BR>a very simple matter. I WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE<BR>IN THE WRONG.For some reason some of continue<BR>to think so.Didn't some of the other hunters<BR>have dirty hands also?Or am I wrong again?<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE

I'm just asking but I know that like George I'll get flamed for this, but you know what I really don't care any more, here goes. Does this post belong in the political section or the BS section? I would like to know if it has been cleared by the chosen few. The only reason I still hang around is to see what childish things happen next.......deadeye <P><p>[This message has been edited by deadeye (edited June 22, 2001).]

deadeye,<BR> Your right it does belong in the BS<BR>section over at Hunter's Campfire.I was told<BR>that I HAD TO POST IN THE POLITICAL SECTION.<BR>So here I am but these people seem to be able<BR>to do as they please.Why is that Rick? Why<BR>don't you tell them to do this type of posting at Hunter's Campfire? I continue to<BR>make my point but,"no body is home."

Well George, define rude. Under my current defination of rude, most of the people were polite when speaking to you. A few got a bit carried away, but most everybody was polite. Of course, you probably have a more loose defination of rude too.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by big hunter (edited June 22, 2001).]

George, I stopped posting here yesterday shortly after 5 pm. I even changed a post that I made just to see if this would stop. But you know some of these Americans are like little children aren't they. You just have to ignore them, I guess they forgot what they learned at home. When I came to this site I knew there were some different folks and some who like to be in control, but that's ok they are everywhere. Anyway go ahead and flame me some more, I'll be quiet again for a bit.......deadeye <p>[This message has been edited by deadeye (edited June 22, 2001).]

deadeye,<BR> I don't buy it.It is not because their<BR>American that this type of thing happens.If<BR>you remember,"need one," had to take his foot<BR>out of his mouth after I faxed him the documents.People are people no matter where<BR>you are.There is also the good and the bad.<BR>Some people are more pro-active then others.<BR>That has to change though if we are going to<BR>win the battle.We need more people to join<BR>the battle.<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE

You're right George, I wasn't saying that those kind of people aren't on both sides of the border, every place has their share, but why two sets of rules?.......deadeye

deadeye,<BR> That is the way things are run here.<BR>Like I said some peope are more equal than<BR>others.<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE

Some people are more equal than others?<P>Where did I recently read that "all men were created equal"? Must not have been on George's site.<P>Whatever Goerge, you don't have to bash someone because they're not stepping up to your crusade. <P>And others should have the same curtesy, as most posts I've read so far have shown that curtesy. Well, until recently that is.<P>Just an observation. Good hunting and keep up the fight!<P>PH

Parrot_Head,<BR> I will keep up the fight.With or<BR>without people.I've done it that way for over<BR>a year with Charity Watch.By the way.Are you<BR>still busy?<P> GOOD HUNTING<BR> GEORGE

I have learned one thing about petitions. They make good toilet paper. People are fast to sign petitions if thats all they have to do. But to get them to do anything but sing their name on a piece of paper is like pulling teeth. I have NEVER seen petitions work on issues where there is an agenda and the formalities of public meetings is just that FORMALITIES. Petitions arent going to stop the freight train of our eroding gun rights and hunting priveleges, but it will keep the politicians in toilet paper. bcat

When folks swear allegiance to a person or title{ the queen in this instance ] they have a different mindset than we who live under a constitution.My Australian friends think they understand,but they dont.I doubt the Canadians do either.Add to that the FRENCH influence and you really got a mess.<P>Don't underestimate the power of the 2nd.IT's all we really have,but so far'it's been enough.You will never see outright banning of firearms here.<P>Too many are mistaking rhetoric - or the lack of it - for commitment - or the lack of it.It's not hard to spot the posters who are promoting themselves instead of ideas.<P>Some of y'all wanted more posters over here.'preciate the invite.

...'Slayer checking in George, like I promised!...ready to kick butt!!!<BR>...so who are we going after first?.....<BR>DS

Slayer, I hate to say this, but I think the day will come, if it hasn't already, where the second amendment won't be enough. I believe that it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." I believe that they have infringed upon it already, and will continue to do so until it is gone. That is, unless we all do something about it.

You are correct, Big Hunter....<BR>...and I heard mentioned earlier, I don't remeber wh said it, that most people just send in their money to the organizations that help protect our hunter and firearm rights, and never really do anything.<P>Well, I'm of the opinion that the 5 or 6 groups I support with a small check each year really need that...FROM ALL OF US!...if the money we send is not important, even if we only send a $20 membership fee, then where would they get the money needed to wage war for our rights. Bottomline is, most of us are working Americans, and don't have the leisure of sitting on the court house steps for very long,....but they're people that do have that time to do just that, and our money helps allow them to do it. A few bucks goes a long way when you strated adding it up x a few hundred thousand! <P>I feel I do my part, though I may be kidding myself....<BR>I have all the right stickers on my Suburban...."pry this gun from my cold dead hands"...."insured by Smith and Wesson"....."When they outlaw guns, I'll be an outlaw"....NRA....Wild Turkey Federation...RMEF....BuckMasters....BASS....NorhAmericanHunter...etc,etc....so everyone who sees me driving knows where I stand, ...<P>...and furthermore....back in my home state I founded a group among the local sportmen called HAP...Hunters Against Poachers.<BR>We worked in conjuction with local wildlife agents helping rid our area from these slob hunters.....in less than a year, we were cited over a dozen times by the head of the DOW for 'actions above and beyond the call', and received almost $10, 000 in Operation Game Thief Rewards,...which we turned back over to the NRA and a couple of other groups who help protect our rights. I am very pround of what we accomplished, and it wasn't easy getting it started either...took lot's of work, and a lotta days and nights volunteering in the field to make it work....<P>...what does that have to do with the politics of saving our guns????...I think a whole lot!...for one, the money we raised went directly to pro-gun organizations....and secondly, we helped remove a few of the slob hunters that give our sport a bad name, and hence add fuel to the Antis fire.....just a small part of the big picture...but I think realisticly, that's all most of us can do.....give our subscription money to the pro-hunting organizations, write letters and make phone calls to state reps concerning all votes on anything to do with our hunting and gun rights,...and the little things, like turning in a poacher,....it helps, maybe not directly, but in directly,...as he is the one the Antis will use as a poster child for all hunters........<BR>...I'm taking a breath now....<BR>DS

I dont know if I read it right or not, but it was my understanding that big hunter is a young fella. I got to say if he is he is a bright young fella. He is absolutely correct that the second ammendment has been eroded away already. Its great that we have it or we would be without our guns already, but just having the second ammendment to fall back on and thinking it will save us is TOTALY incorrect. It hasnt saved us from ONE SINGLE GUN LAW THAT HAS BEEN PASSED SO FAR HAS IT? Why would we think for a minute that it will save us in the future? Simply belonging to the NRA or some of these other organizations serves a purpose but it isnt gonna stop them from passing new gun laws. If you are a student big hunter you have it together bud. bcat

Yeah bcat, I still have to wait a few years to vote. I will be 18 in 2003, just in time to keep Hillary out of office in 2004. The thought scares me. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Here is what foreigners dont understand:Our rights are GOD given.If you dont believe that,you stand to lose a lot more than your right to keep and bear arms.Since they are from Almighty God,they cannot be taken away.If they can be taken away by men,then we are mistaken and they are not from GOD.<P>We have a Divinely instituted organization,the NRA,which is empowered by our collective will under the guidance of GOD as each one of us understands HIM.Any of you who are perfect in your own lives may have a right to expect perfection from the NRA.The rest of us have to accept that it is made up of imperfect humans and will make mistakes.<P>It is not only the best game in town it's the only one allowed to play in the big leagues.I've seen some wanna-be managers posting here who cant even make it in the minor leagues.<P>To give oneself to a cause is a noble endeavor.To try and give a cause to oneself is pitiful and weak.Sign up a new member for the NRA.Quit trying to pinch hit for GOD.

Big Hunter-I am very impressed with your intelligence on every post I have read so far by you. I wish we had more kids around with your insight. Gene Williams, no-body is trying to pinch hit for God..... God gave us a brain, and expects us to use it. Not just set around and say "well god will take care of it" When ya get real sick Gene do ya say "OK GOD FIX ME WOULD YA" or do you go to a doctor and get fixed??? God gave us doctors and he gave doctors a brain to use to help the sick........ God is amazing but he also gave us a brain to use and just pitching in a few bucks to the NRA dont cut it Gene..... The second ammendment isnt written in stone like the ten commandments... It was written on paper by men not by God Gene... Although I am glad we have that ammendment, it is being eroded every day by liberal democrats and the anti gun and hunting groups in all 50 states and across the world. May be time to wake up and smell the coffee before it gets cold .

I'm not advocating a do nothing position.'Slayer has got it right.I need to be a lot more like him.He doesn't feel it necessary to be the leader.If you dont learn to follow,you can never lead.See,he took the lead in his own community in a pro-hunting program.But,like me,he pays his dues to other organizations.<P>My post was aimed at those who continually put down the NRA.We can"speak our truth quietly and clearly" from a position of strength.Alarmist views are always born out of fear.<P>All the talk of "fighting"for our rights is suspect when it comes out of fear.Fights are won by those who are quietly confident.If we "suit up and show up",placing the outcome in GOD's hands,we can enjoy these rights we hold so dear rather than give in to the fear-mongering that goes on all to often.<P>If you want corruption out of govt,start at your county courthouse.Gun owners who pay union dues that go to fund gun grabbing candidates need to clean up their unions.Thats just one example.There are plenty more.<P>I haven't had a chance to vote against a gun grabber at the state level,ever.And I been voting since 1964.We just dont let em run.My congressman is a democrat but he split with Clinton on guns,not because he had to to get re-elected,but because he is strongly pro 2nd amendment.All is not lost.We shall prevail.

Gene Williams,<P>A constitution is not unique to America. Australia has had one for 100 years. Your gov't system, as is ours, is basically the Westminster system. <P>One should always put laws that exist in different countries into the context of that country and conditions that generally exist in that country. For example, for Australian gun owners it is always hard for us to imagine having to get a permit to shoot a few animals a year, when we are free to shoot them until the barrel melts. However, when that is put in the context that the average American gun owner is a "hunter" and the average Australian gun owner is a "shooter" and we only have 19 million people on the same size block of land, then it all falls into place.<P>America does not have a preferential voting system which of course makes it very difficult for a minor party to get people elected. But again, your Republicans and Democrats don't hold as a strong a party line as do out two major parties, so that such a rstriction on your election rights are not so important.<P>As to the NRA, like our Sporting Shooters Association, they can only do those things which an officila outlet can do.<P>Think of it like a war.<P>You have your "official" army and then you have spies and commando type units.<P>On the subject of God, I think He said something about God helps those who help themselves.<P>I suppose I have some God given right not to be murdered. But if someone plans on doing that next week, then I need to do more than make extra contributions to the police social club.<P>Your comments about leaders and followers is true for both gun laws and probably most issues.<P>But the spy and commando units also have a leader and their followers.<P>As to the NRA or our equivalent, if every gun owner wasa memeber it would dramatically imporove things. Until last year I was a member of the NRA. I am not now as there was a foul up with their international memebership renewal situation and combine that with some slackness on my part......<P>Mike

Gene-I am certainly not putting down the NRA, I think they have played a leading role in keeping the guns we enjoy now. I dont however think that just paying our NRA dues, or our Bass Fishing dues is gonna cut it from now on. They are playing dirty, and we will have to play a little dirty to survive. Just remeber ANYONE can get on this Internet and say ANYTHING they want to, and whos to know if its the truth or not? I believe the gun grabbers have worked the hardest in smaller countries where the oposition wasnt as rough as it is here, but they have accomplished most of their goals , and we are just bideing our time till one by one, battle after battle they are slowly taking these rights away. Its easy to say "They can have my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers from it".......But in Reality that isnt how they are gonna do it anyway. If they did, 90 percent of the loudmouths would cower down and hand the guns in, because their wife and kids were there, or other circumstances. Its a brave thought but not much of a reality. I am convinced George has the right idea in hitting them in the pocket book where it counts. If there were a whole army of folks volunteering their time, or paying for someone elses time to turn over dirt on them at the pocket book, I think it would put a real dent in their campaign. Not only the gun grabbers but the environmental groups that are all MONEY ORIENTATED.....bcat

Thanks to both for responding.What I should have said was that Australian citezens did not have a constitutional right to own guns.As I understand it,thats why the ban could be implemented administrativly.<P>I dont deny that there is an agenda for a one world govt.It isnt anything new.The present push may actually have taken hold in the forties when the Oxford Group changed it's name to Moral Rearmament and shifted it's focus from first century Christianity to saving the world.It had a lot of influential people among it's members.I dont know if it is still around or not.<P>We are going to win some and lose some.We have concealed carry now and 20 years ago who would have thought it possible?I know some will say it's a registration list but on balance,it has to be considered a gain.

Gene,<P>I think if we had a constitution that had the equaivalent of the American 2nd Amendment the outcome would have been no different.<P>A topic that has been done a few times on the boards is exactly what infringes the 2nd Amendment.<P>Again, things need to be out into the context of the country in question.<P>The majority of semo autos in Australia were cheap Phillipino made 22s and the SKS. The majority of the SKS were either owned by the Vietnames or Lebanese (still are) and other immigrants or they were owned by shooters for some cheap shooting.<P>When the rifles were banned full retail price was paid. Much of this money was then used to buy bolt actions with. Even if the rifle had a broken stock, a bent barrel, the price was the same.<P>Thus we are still able to bear arms and compensation was paid for the handed in banned guns that exceeded what the gun owner had actually paid for them.<P>It is my belief that the way guns are owned and used could be dramatically changed without the 2nd Amendment being deemed to have been infringed.<P>I strongly suspect that after the Australian situation (or test run as some refer to it) you will not see a ban on guns that a large number of shooters own as it is counter productive for the antis.<P>What you will see is attempts to just make it more difficult to own and use guns they way we wish to.<P>One interesting difference between American and Australoian gun owners is that we own guns to "shoot" and you own them to "hunt"<P>Even our licence is called a "shooter's" licence. Our main gun magazines are called Sporting Shooter and The Shooters Journal.<P>However, you do not need a gun to hunt.<P>Mike