Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What powder does Weatherby use??

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease come-up with something more logical than mere skepticism and stubborn refusal to regard the logic of the explanation offered. If there's a better explanation, I'm far more eager to know and embrace it than I am to persist with the one explanation that now seems logical to me.



But I don't see your proposal as a logical explanation and one which is based on the combination of high pressure factory ammo and 9 small locking lugs.



In fact your explanation is akin to me saying the loud noise I can now here above the house and which is a bit different to normal is a some sort of UFO. In my case I will go for a jet landing at Sydney air port.



Let us consider a couple of facts.



1) Wby rifles and ammo have been around for a long time. In addition they are used quite a lot in Australia where we



a) Tend to shoot a lot in our summer months and



b) fire lots of shots and typically leave the loaded ammo baking away in the car. We are not hunters we are shooters.



2) The very nature of the Wby calibres encourages high pressure hand loading and doubly so because of the promotion behind the rifle.



3) Most keen reloaders know that if the double base powders such as Reloader are used then Wby factory ammo velocities can be exceeded.



Now in the face of all that these rifles don't appear to be having any problems.



In fact it is more than reasonable to discount your proposed reasons.



Thus our starting point might be a rifle that is not right but "not right" because of the reasons you have proposed.



Mike

Oh, but I do -- and it should be obvious in what I've already posted. And I haven't moved anywhere except to respond to what you're saying here.

� If all the lugs are gone -- or weakened enough to offer no resistance, irrespective of whether unnoticed set-back or intentional removal by grinding or machining has taken them out of the equation -- then the root of the bolt handle would be subject to all the rearward thrust applied to the bolt by the firings of all the cartridges subsequently fired.

� Repeated firings would subject the root of the bolt handle to the same repeated hammering with repeated firings, which I wouldn't expect it to withstand indefinitely. NB: I never said or implied whether the root of the bolt handle would fail with the subsequent firing of only one round. The idea of what only one round would or wouldn't do comes from you, my friend, not from me.

I think I see one of your problems -- that you seem to be basing your objections on the mistaken assumption that my first brief capsule comments comprise the totality of the matter as I see it. No, my friend, I merely reported a few of the most basic points of a much more detailed set of circumstances -- a thoroughly legitimate approach on my part, since the intent was to present just the basic high points as briefly as possible, as they applied to the narrow original context of the thread -- not to present an exhaustive technical analysis of the event and its causes nor to engage in a long, detailed technical discussion of every detail of the event and its causes. You have therefore set forth to refute things neither said nor implied, which you had to assume and supply as premises.

I know how you can answer this question Mike . Take one of your .378 s and grind off the locking lugs .

Proceed to fire with factory loads until something lets go or you get tired of it .

We will then have proof , one way or the other.............when are you going to get started ..........?.............(grin)

But unless the peening of the bolt handle has occurred then it will be one round.

However, for peening of the bolt handle to have occurred other problems are introduced.

So we have three basic things to discuss.

1) If there was no peening of the bolt handle then I think you agree that the bolt handle only had to hold for one shot. I also get the impression that you believe the bolt handle will hold for one shot, assuming it has not been peened.

Now if this is the situation then it is likely that the events reported to you were a case of incaccurate reporting.

2) The bolt handle was peened. This then brings up the issue of being able to operate the rifle and would again suggest that the facts were not reported to you.

3) The rifle in question had some type of fault or faults and the bolt into the shooters face would still have occurred had pressures been a bit lower.

Mike

sdgunslinger,

A couple of weeks ago I was getting through the Australian Wby agent two upgraded 338/378 Accumarks. However it was a pair of 378s that I wanted but the Australian agent said they would be more than 12 months away.

However, the 378s kept eating away at me so I phoned the chap in the Wby custom shop and in our discussion it was obvious that the Australian agent had wrong information. Their computer link to Wby does not contain anything about bits and pieces relating to the custom shop.

So to cut a long story short the order was changed over to a pair of 378s with the good wood and all steel bottom metal. Charlie Murray who posts here and is in the Wby Collectors Assoc looked at the confirmation emails from Wby and has said they should be two real one off rifles.

Now after reading all this stuff of Ken Howells it looks like I am fortunate that I ordered two of them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kevin Nunes in Wby (a very helpful and prompt man) has said he expects both rifles to be in the next shipment to Australia which should leave at the end of February and be here in May.

Mike

Ken, this discussion got me to thinking (a dangerous thing) so I went and sectioned three cartridges to get the area of the base internal dimensions.



On a .270 case, the base is .348"dia. Using 65,000psi, the pressure on the bolt would be aprox 6182lbs.



The .300 Weatherby case, the base was .375"dia. At 75,000psi, the bolt pressure would be aprox 8283lbs.



Now comes the interesting finding. A .300 ultra case has a base of .420" BUT the base is in a hemispherical shape. Did some quick and dirty calculations with autocad to get my surface area, came up with .165 sq. in., with my math equates to 10,725lbs at 65,000psi.



From my piont of view, I think what 375 is trying to say is that this guy should have recognized that there was something wrong with this rifle proir to the accident.

You're trying 'way too hard, Mike.

You're 'way out of your element trying to divine what I think or assume.

The fact that a certain event has never happend on Elm Street has nothing whatever to do with whether it has occurred on Main Street. Mrs Mary Higgins was murdered in this house before I bought it -- it happened, with details well known, quite irrespective of the facts (a) that any number of other Mary Higginses have not been murdered and (b) that no one has ever been murdered in millions of other homes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so you can't know whether no W'by rifle or ammo in your country has ever let go. And even if you're right about that, you have nothing there to argue against either the Utah man's injury or my conjecture regarding the mechanism of its cause.

I won't bother you by recounting the ways that you're wrong. I'm always interested in an intelligent, mutually respectful exchange of views -- but no interest in duels that have one shooter facing north and the other facing east.

Have a good 2004, my friend! If you grind the lugs off a Mark V, fire it with a looooooooooooooong string -- just in case. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ken,

It is true that Wbys could be falling apart in Australia and no one hears of those problems but I think that is unlikely. Australia is a very tight knit shooting group and very much so with rifles that are not Howas and Ruger Stainless, that is, the big selling rifles out here.

BUT, if you are going to investigate something then you don't start with what is the most unlikely.

Why don't you address the three points in my last posting.

I think any reasonable person would say the most likley solution is the that the reporting to you was either inaccurate or this particular rifle had some fault or faults and those faults were unrelated to Wby ammo or 9 small locking lugs.

The integral bolt handle is the fly in the ointment.

Mike

The rifle may have had faults from the factory and introduced faults from firing--Like say only few of lugs bearing and a fault in the bolt handle or the tang where bolt sets in.And lugs too hard and not resiliant.On constant firing those lugs stressed cracked and as it set back a little, more cracked, and then let loose getting a run at bolt handle stop, which sheared off bolt or the stop.The bolt handle base is smaller than on my Enfields.Those small lugs
may not peen or dimple back, thus picking up more contact and strength from others in the process.I think they crack.
The heat treatment on narrow lugs will leave a smaller core section of high strength, compared to a Mauser style big lug.
If the lugs peened back so far as to have bolt handle become a lug also, to a reloader the effects on the case from stretching would have showed up very plain.Mike you reload so you would have noticed, but many more others don't. AND in the instance Ken related the fellow didn't reload, just shot and chucked the cases and not being reloaders noticing anything out of the ordinary.And then they fired a round that may have been warmed, had moisture or something in barrel,etc and it let loose.The other thing is that the tang could have
bent allowing bolt handle base to slip over.That was just
related about a WIN 70 that they figure was underloaded with wrong powder(this guy reloaded and when his loads were checked they were all over the scale some 40 gr less than what he said he loaded to), detonated, and blew bolt out, shearing lugs, & bending tang where bolt handle seated.
We need to run a test sometime on a Wea by taking off all
lugs and say put heavy rubber band on handle just holding bolt forwaed for proper firing pin contact and allow bolt to get a run at the stop on the tang. And fire off a 75k round like Norma was loading for Weatherby
and see what happens to bolt handle.Probably should be done on all styles that have a forged on handle, just to see what bolt handles would take.Maybe results would scare the hell out of us.Ed.

I have seen stress fatigue break metal parts in machinery that you would never dream could be broken . So I don't see you can dismiss the possiblity that the bolt let go just as stated. If the root of the bolt were not well seated, I think it's entirely possible it would not hold the many thousands of lbs of thrust that would be applied to it .

It is also possible that the bolt handle was taking a pounding even while the locking lugs were going south . There would not neccesarily be visible sighns of this . I've see many machine parts let go with no preceeding visible signs of a problem............

I�m always ready to learn something new ... and all sides of this thread have been thought provoking ... especially since more than one of the afore-mentioned (9-lug) Wby rifles resides in my basement. Curiosity tugged, so I pulled out one of my stainless Wby bolts and squinted at it both in and out of the rifles action.

Using a Starrett dial caliper and my (1-cup-o-coffee) Mark-4 eyeball, combined with a dash of Excel, it appears that the potential �bearing� surface area of the fully-closed bolt handle, that could absorb the rearward thrust of the bolt, is roughly 56% of the combined surface area of the 9 forward locking lugs. That�s a greater �potential� area than having 5 outa the 9 lugs intact ... The Wby bolt is a forging and this potential bolt-handle/receiver contact area is adjacent to the bolts diameter, so there is not a significant lever-arm acting here.

Now, everyone loves a mystery ... and �Enquiring- minds� want to know ...

1) Did all 9 of the locking lugs get stripped off the bolt, or were the corresponding mating surfaces on the receiver torn off the bolt raceway ?

2) Was the damage to the bolt handle recess on the receiver consistent with the bolt having been fully-closed, when the round in question was fired/(ker-sploded)?

3) Had the shooter removed and re-inserted the Wby�s bolt, just before the Ka-boom ?

4) Was the shooters right thumb nearly removed .. (or just scarred on the dorsal side)?

The problem I am having in visualizing this failure (even allowing that the final round fired may have had a pressure spike of 90 or 100K psi) is that as the locking lugs are being cracked (over time on previous firings), pushed back, deformed, etc. that one would expect a noticeable change in the effort (smoothness/roughness) of the cycling of the bolt. (ie: that even minimally-displaced metal had to go somewhere). I know if I�m shooting one of my rifles and the bolt is closing �funny�, you better believe that I will be removing the bolt and examining it for a piece of debris (brass shaving, etc.) or for foreign material in the raceway or chamber ... (this guy had supposedly fired this rifle a lot and should have been familiar with how its bolt normally cycled ...)

Having just been through the Rem-700 (fire on Safety-release), I decided to play with the Stainless Wby Mark-5 I took the measurements on. If you remove the bolt and then re-insert it (requires the trigger to be pulled fully rearward to insert), the firing pin will release ... �if� you continue to hold the trigger fully rearward and push the bolt fully forward (and attempt to �cam� the bolt to its closed position) .

This trigger-release on bolt close is not a 1 in 100 occurrence, but is 100% repeatable (on three different Mark-5 Wby�s), since the bolt cocks on opening and the trigger must be pulled to re-insert the bolt. The correct-procedure is to let go of the trigger after the bolt is an inch or so into the receiver (and of course, to have the chamber and magazine empty). If the trigger is released once the bolt is in the raceway, there is no slam-fire, regardless of how hard/fast I tried to close the bolt.

Imagine this scenario and assume that the shooter is firing �prone� (as Ken recalled):

A) - - Repeated firings of full-boogie Weatherby factory loads have cracked and weakened the 9 locking lugs (on the bolt), to the point where the cycling of the bolt is noticeably rough.

B) - - The (prone) shooter, pulls the bolt, inspects it, but doesn�t detect any problem.

C) - - The shooter, who was working with rounds loaded from the magazine, pulls the trigger so he can insert the bolt ... and either picks up a round from the magazine (as the bolt moves forward) or had previously fed one in the chamber .. and as the bolt moves forward (with the trigger still pulled) causes the rifle to fire just as the bolt is beginning to cam shut.

D) - - With the weakened lugs only partially engaged (and not much of the bolt handle engaged in the receivers rear slot), the pressure spikes and with only a small (weakened) lug area engaged and supporting the bolt, the bolt becomes a (high mass/low velocity) rearward �bullet�.

E) - - If this was the scenario (fire on bolt-closure), the palm-side of the shooters right thumb should have received a serious blow from the bolt handles rearward journey ... versus ... if his right hand was in the normal firing position of gripping the stocks wrist ... in which case he might have only a serious cut across the back side of his right thumb.

Still curious .... and would love to have some photos/details from the shooters mouth.

... Silver Bullet

P.S. - - Rust never sleeps ...this also reminded me that I need to clean/inspect all my bolts !!

Silver--that is a way it could have happened.In all of the

myriad off things that can go wrong there is a big chance of operator error.when you refer to contact area, do you mean where the lugs and seats contact ? The area that is critical I think is the cross section where lugs and handle mount to bolt body.That is what has to shear or crack for failure.The total shear area of the 9 lugs is 90% of what a Savage is for example.All you Weatherby guys should take a black marker and check your 9 lugs for contact, by marking the backs of all the lugs and

cycle bolt a few times.I check my wildcat test rifles regularly

to make sure that the two bolt lugs bear together with the extra bearing surface I put on bolt handle.That extra bolt handle surface increased my shear rating from 33k to 53 k,

which with a max load(55k psi loading) giving thrust of 10k on bolt, with my 458HE.That increased safety factor from 3 times to 5 times.Notice this is with handle working as a regular lug. in conjunction with other two.

Not as a stop if others fail and bolt gets a run at it...EACH

WEATHERBY LUG ON AVERAGE.ONLY 3400 LBS OF SHEAR.

Interesting???Ed.

SD, I checked my Weatherby, realizing that one rifle is not a sum of the whole, but there is .003" clearance between the bolt and the notch it fits into on the reciever. I would think that on repeated firings, with a rifle in this condition, that as you lifted the bolt it would chafe on the action, leaving telltale signs that something was amiss.



Not a doubt in my mind that the mishap did occur, just curious as to the cause.

OK, I have a Ruger M77 that I had my gunsmith put a Douglas size 3 X barrel, 26 inches long on. It has alot of freebore, just like factory weatherby's so the rifle can easily shoot Weatherby factory ammo. The caliber is 240 Weatherby. To put it bluntly, those of you in the know, is the Ruger (80's era, tang safety, with a timney trigger in it) bolt of suffecient strength. I couldnt tell you beans about strength of the Ruger bolt, other than I always assumed it was a good one.

Silver_Bullet

I think there are perhaps a couple of potential problems with the scenario you outlined.

When you partially closed the bolt and fired the rifle did you try it with a primed case.?

If in fact the gun would fire the primer and the bolt let go and even if the bolt encountered zero resistance and also assuming that the case held, then the velocity of the bolt would make it very unlikely that it could penetratre to the persons lower neck, especially since the bolt handle is still there. The outcome for the person would be real interesting but I don't think there was any mention.

I am still betting we have a half baked story on our plate. Similar to someone who shoots a deer or kangaroo and the animal runs 50 yards. The person with a bias against the calibre/projectile etc has the deer or roo going 300 yards. The person with bias in favour of the calibre/projectile has the deer or roo drop on the spot.

Mike

You are correct, I was merely looking at the cross-sectional area of surface contact. The total area that would need to completely "shear" to allow the bolt to travel rearward, would be larger for both the 9-lugs and the bolt handle/receiver-cut.

Since this episode (bolt embedded in the face) probably gained some press at the time, it would sure be nice to track-down more specifics.

S.B.

Aggie--Ruger is one of the strongest-my first wildcat test rifle was early 77..

AJ ,Seeing as how the bolt handle base is only .003 from
the abutment it is hard to see how bolt can get out of there.
Is your gun headspaced like new,IE hoping that .003 figure
isn't the result of setback..The mauser styles I have are quite a ways from that abutment.Like .030.Ed.

Just tried the SS .300 Wby with a new primed Norma brass case, hand inserted (it won't feed just a case from the magazine) and it dented the primer, but no primer ignition occurred ....

This (should-have) simulated the use of factoy ammo (standard dimensioned case). Just more Hmmmm ??

I take it that your "most-likely" scenario involves a plugged barrel and/or misload, generating an exceptionally high pressure peak (> 100K ?) or .... ??

S.B.

Ed, headspace should be good. Rifle hasn't seen any factory ammo. Kinda one of those interesting ones. I've primarlly worked with 180g partitions in her (elk hunting rifle). Using IMR7828, Nosler lists a max load of 84.5 grains. IMR used to list 86 grains as max. When I started working up loads, at 84 grains, the bolt had resistance, ejector marks showed on some of the brass. Ran back down to 83 grains, getting 3150 across the chrono, left well enough alone. On the other hand, one of my shooting pals is running 86 grains thru a Vanguard without any pressure signs, forgot his velocity. You should see what it did to his throat though!!! He had to rebarrel, but did put some 3000 rounds thru that barrel.

S.B.

It could be that and then the story got distorted with the bolt flying out and it was just standard ammo etc. and etc.

Actually, I reckon a solid man could stop the bolt coming out with his hand if it was say a 257 or 300. After all, if the bolt is "free" its momentum will be the same as the bullet and the gas. Of course in practice the whole momentum number would be way down because as soon as the case head cleared the chamber the pressure would drop right down.

But we have something far better than the strong man's hand, we have the integral bolt handle and that is the fly in the ointment.

Mike