Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 5.56/223 LACKS PUNCH/knockdown??????

TWR

Let me be clear. External cartridge dimensions of the .223 and the 5.56 are the same. My handiest reference on that is Nosler #6. Thickness and malleability of brass can vary, as with any cartridge from diferent manufacturers.

If you have cartridge descriptions with different external dimensions between the two designations, we'd all like to see them, I'm sure.

In general I defer to rost495 in matters of 5.56 who has much more technical experience than I, but I agree leade has nothing to do with standard cartridge dimensions

This just goes to show how solidly imbedded some of these beliefs are, when they have no basis in fact.

Anyway, I'm just trying to help make sense of this. It won't hurt my feelers if someone can show that I'm wrong.

I give up

"Use of the 77 grain ammo"

ok Ill admit I have yet to see that refered to before,
ARE we currently using 77 grain 223 bullets?
what twist is required?
are they accurate in the comon civilian AR 15s?
where can you get bulk bullets?
load data?
are the 75 and 80 grain V-MAX bullets accurate in the AR15 rifles?
any other info????????

The dimensions of the cartridges are the same, the chambers are different. The .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, the 5.56�45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure.



SAAMI Release 31 January 1979

With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders.

Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.

SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.

SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.

People have survived .50, 7.62, 5.56, 9mm, 45ACP hits. Everyone has heard someone know someone that heard that (Insert cartridge here) is a (Pick one- Piece of crap/greatest manstopper of all time!)because of how they shot so-and-so in (Insert war/battle here.). There is no magic bullet that stops the fight immediately 100% of the time. There are factors such as psychological and physiological makeups of peoplesuch as drug inducements, determination, emotionally disturbed, and others. Animals can go for extended periods being shot with lethal shots through the instinct of survival. Humans can be the same. There are numerous instances documented of people shot multiple times with head and torso shots that kept fighting.

There are only certain areas 100% guaranteed to drop a person and turn the lights off. These are in the Central Nervious System such as the medulla. Any round taking these out will work. Anything else depends.

The key to all this is not only shot placement, but simply shooting until the threat is done. It's not a single shot like in the movies that blows him back and down. People may not realize they are being shot. You have to physiologically take away the ability to continue to act. So keep firing.

This is taken from a portion of the Ammo Oracle on AR15.com. I can't get the diagram of the specs to copy over. It can be found at :

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/hist_diff.html

Q. What is the difference between 5.56�45mm and .223 Remington
ammo?

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to
the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles.
Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade
and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a
SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional
15,000 psi or more.
The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is
usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter
".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which
provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability,
especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between
chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber.


Hope this helps with the question on the differences between the two.

I don't remember the specifics, but aren't there similar issues with the .308 and 7.62x51 NATO round? Don't shoot one in the other, etc.

I do know that a "tactical" Savage I once had would lock up scary tight with milsurp 7.62. I used to keep a ton of that ammo around back when it was still cheap because I was running it through a couple M1a's. I bought the Savage for some bolt action trigger time with that same ammo. It was a bummer that it wouldn't work in that rifle.

77s are from Sierra, bthp match.
There are also 73 and 75 bthp match from others.

I"ve never seen a 9 twist that won't work, though they are on the edge, something faster is much more common.

Are tehy accurate, in a well built gun with the right load the 77s are as accurate as you need them to be. Marines use them at 600 yards in matches...

They have been around as issue ammo for many years now.

Jeff

anyone know the twist rate in the COLT H-BARS?

Should be stamped on the barrel. The Hbar I had before I sold the barrel for a real barrel, was 1/7, but I hear there are 9s floating around..

I shoot down to 52s out of my 1x6.5 twists...and it loves 77s, and 90s...

I also very much enjoyed the last two issues of Handloader with the 2 part history of the 5.56/.223 round.

My HBAR was 1/9.

I've treated a few folks shot with .223 (m193). I will simply state that the wounds were catastrophic and made my job as a medic irrelevent. The weapon system is capable of very, very lethal effects on humans.

AGREED. The topic really centers on the issue is Stopping a threat immeidately, not killing eventually. Much like a dangerous game rifle.

Very little matters more than shot placement.

Tough issue, really.

BMT

For me, if it has to be DRT, there is the CNS, which for me, is the head. Thats the only sure ticket in my books.

What really matters is not just shot placement, but shooting and shooting and hitting and hitting, forcing the body to shut down. Don't stop until the threat is down, be it a 22LR, 5.56mm, 7.62, or 460 Rigby. Shoot until its done, and move on to the next one.

how many firefights have you been in Tacticalsquirrel?

I don't think anyone needs to have been in a firefight to understand its not always caliber, lots has to do with the combatant or target. CNS is only sure way, beyond that if you need them down, you shoot till they no longer move. The tactical situations can vary but the end result is the same. I know a good friend was in the Korean War, he said there were so many chinese coming they shot as fast as they could basically but did not have time to finish so to speak, and realized that often you would hit one with the 06 and they were down, only to shoot at a couple others and realize the first one was back up again, you shot as needed.

Jeff

As someone who was trained as a medic in the military ( MOS 91-C)
I was trained to take care of wounds of all types.. thank God I didn't have to see combat, although by the skin of my teeth I just missed seeing it..

Also as a varmint shooter, who burns thru several thousand rounds of 223 minimum each year.. and a person who even believes it is an effective deer round...

if I had to go into combat, I certainly would want ANYTHING with more ooomph than a 223 can offer.. it is a great varmint round and a crappy military round, regardless of what bullet it has on it..

and then the military will not use the most effective bullets available for it either, for maximum destruction on target...

and our guys who are even in special ops are evidently not allowed to handload something on their own....

I believe ideal, would at least be rounds like the 243, or 250 Savage, 25/08 or 260 Rem or 7/08, or 270/08..

there is a lot of ground between a 223 and a 308..

our guys put in harms way deserve something a lot better than a darn 223 caliber...