Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Which tool to get the best quality 11 deg. target crown?

I would like to put a 11 degree target crown on my .22 rimfire. The muzzle outside diameter is 0.800" and is stainless steel - I presume 416 SS. It is a Savage barrel and does not come out of the receiver very easily (pressed in and pinned). I recall a somewhat heated thread a while back about using brass screws, acorn nuts, dremel tools, etc., and am not interested in that. I would like to do it myself, but want a quality job, and have the tools to redo it again later.

I have found these tools available and would appreciate your comments on using them to get a truely concentric and chatter free finish.

Accumounts Kit for $139. Based on some comments made by others this one apparantly needs an extra pilot for .22 rimfire.

Pacific Tool & Guage Kit for $83 at Midway, but no handle.

Pacific Tool & Guage Kit direct from Pacific Tool for $66 and may be the same one as from Midway??

Brownells Cutter for $50, but seems to need a pilot and a special handle.

I have a tap and die set, so have a standard tap handle which would appear to work with the PTG tool, but the Brownells seems to need something threaded?

Best tool or suggestions on any others to consider? Suggestions on how to get a chatter free surface? I'm not keen on doing any grinding after cutting. What diameter of pilot is likely to work best for .22 rimfire?

Thanks for any suggestions you can offer,

Ron

Best quality crown, find someone who has a lathe with a short spindle or a spindle hole large enough for the action to fit into. Crown the barrel while it's still attached to the action.

Dave Manson Precision Reamers sell muzzle crowning toolkit in different configurations. Talk to them about your needs. One non-rotating expandable .22 pilot will fit any 0.22, rimfire or centerfire (5.45mm-5.7mm range). 11 deg. cutter with carbide blades can crown barrels up to 1.25" in diameter. No chatter, crown concentricity to the bore is less than 0.001". Takes 5-7 minutes to do the job. No need to disassemble firearm, just remove the bolt and clean barrel from chips after you're done.

Brownells sells the same toolkit, but Dave has wider selection of pilots and accesories and can get you exactly what you need.

Send it to a gunsmith who uses a lathe (like me..) .. It's usually around $40-45, tops.

I'll second Redneck's comment.

Your best tool to use would be the USPS or UPS to get it to the gunsmith.

Thanks for the info. I looked them up and saved the link. However, it is a bit too pricey to justify for doing one gun. Looks like it would be a great tool for a professional gunsmith. The tungsten carbide cutters should keep their edge for a long time.

I'm looking for a DIY tool that I can justify for one gun. Perhaps I should have been more clear on my original post title. While I'm sure a gunsmith would give the best quality job, I'm looking for a tool that does the best when I use it at home.

Ron

IF YOU DON'T MAKE IT PERFECT,IT WILL REALLY MAKE YOUR RIFLE SHOOT LIKE CRAP.

What it sounds like, is that you do not intend to have anyone save you work on the rifle.. That's ok.. But then you'll just have to pony up the bux and get the proper tools... Anything less and the result will show it..

Ron,

You said:

"I would like to do it myself, but want a quality job, and have the tools to redo it again later."

Which means you do not want to send it to gunsmith.

BTW, I have big doubts any professional gunsmith will do just a crown on the LATHE for $40-45. Too much time involved. At least
one hour to disassemble/assemble your rifle, another hour to set up. Also, consider shipping costs. If you have scope on your rifle, you got to zero you rifle after complete disassembly - time and ammo costs. I have complete Manson toolkit, and make $45-50 per crown in under 10 minutes with quality which is at least as good or better than if I do it on the lathe. You can pay this toolokit off pretty fast if you do crowns for your buddies.

MISHKA,REDNECK IS A GUNSMITH AND HE SAID HE WOULD DO IT FOR $40-$45,pay attention.

I did pay attention.
$45 for at least 2 hours of work is not a good business for gunsmith. However, it's not my business.If Redneck wants to do
Ron a huge favor, I respect that.

Redneck:

I'd like to send you a barreled action for a crown. I'll pull the scope off (it's in Talley QDs ... can I leave the bases on?), and keep the bolt here.

Can you post or PM me your address?

rb

If it were me wanting an 11 degree target crown, I'd buy Dave Manson's tools and do it myself. I don't need any crown work done now as all of my rifles are shooting well.
Dave's brother Andy is a gunsmith friend of mine and just built me a Martini Cadet actioned 218 Bee. Both those Manson guys are top drawer.

You're right if you have no idea what you're doing.. I do. And I do them all the time.. I can completely disassemble a M70 and put it back together in under 15 minutes. Setup in the lathe is another 5-10 minutes. Oh, and BTW, I don't use a 3-jaw chuck for setup; I use a 4-jaw and a centering bar indicated in to the bore. A very valid point.. Shipping both ways is going to add up in a hurry which is why I suggested he look for a smith close-by.. But sometimes that's just not going to be the case.. So, if shipping's included, the owner can figure about a C-note front to back..

You can leave the bases on.. PM on the way..

Redneck,

I have no doubts you do it right. 5-10 minutes for setup time is
very, very impressive. I wish I could do these things as fast as you. However, Ron metioned he wants to be able to re-crown in the future. If this is a case, it seems logical for him to have his own crowning tools.

Best to you.

Mishka

If it takes you more than one hour to do a re-crown job, you are obviously in the wrong business. You should be in a "parts replacement position" at Gander Mountain. C'mon, an hour to disassemble a rifle? Another hour to set it up in the lathe? What are you doing with your time? Taking coffee breaks on customer's money?

He did indeed... Which is why he'll have to open the wallet and get the right tools.. Manson stuff is as good as it comes..

Jkob,

"If it takes you more than one hour to do a re-crown job, you are obviously in the wrong business. "

What you're talking about?

I said it takes me under 10 minutes (in most cases, 5 to 7 minutes) to crown with Manson toolkit. $45 in 10 minutes is a right business. Took me less then a week to recover toolkit costs, and I estimate, less then 3 months to make $6,000 in pure profits just by doing muzzle crowns. As you can see, I can afford to take coffee breaks.

To all,

I have "broken the corner" on the crowns on more than a few of my rifles and it has made a dramatic improvement in accuracy.

A nice tool as discussed here is something that I desire. Not sure how many more rifles 'need' the treatment however.

Mishka, in your yesterday's 10;00 post, you inferred it takes and hour to disassemble and another hour to set the damn thing up in the lathe.

If you made $6000 bucks in the past using that tool I think you are ripping off a lot of customers by charging what you do for 10 minutes work.

Jkob,

I do not have the speed and talent of Redneck, so:

1. If I'm to get a completely assembled scoped rifle from the customer, it would take me close to an hour to CAREFULLY (you know what it means?) assemble and disassemble. And rifles are different in design (big surprise for you?), so you may need to look up and figure a few things before you've done, right?

2. $45 for a crowning job is pretty much the standard rate.
How did you figure out I'm ripping the customers off? Because I was smart enough to get an exceptionally productive toolkit from Dave Manson and complete the job much faster? Do you want me to do it for $5 and kill my brother Redneck's business?

Customers are happy to pay $45 and don't give a damn which technology I'm using as long as it's a quality job. And they are very happy to get it done next day.

BTW, I've done lots of revolvers with absolutely amazing results.
Good luck to you doing revolver barrel crowning on the lathe.

I won't get into the discussion about how long it should take. I'm retired and at least for my own guns, I have all the time it takes to do the job. From what I understand that is part of the secret in avoiding chatter? Use lots of honing oil, and a very light pressure, and take your time?

As for doing it on a lathe, I don't have one, but certainly if done that way using a 4-jaw and zeroing it on a pilot in the bore is the right way to get it concentric. I suspect the factory doesn't do it that way and centers on the OD which in most cases will not be concentric with the bore. Using a hand cutter which is accurately piloted in the bore seems like the other good way of getting a concentric cut.

What tweaked my interest in this was a post by a regular at the Savage forum at RFC. His grammer and spelling are not so great, but I've read many of his posts, and he is real practical, knowlegeable about Savages and an accuracy fanatic. I respect his views, but with all testimonials, one always wonders a bit. I don't think he has any connection with the supplier of the tool. See this post:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238630

If you are not familiar with the Suhl 150 he talks about see this:

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/suhl-150-match-rifles-at-centuryarmscom/

I'm being careful about this as this is not a situation where my gun is a dog for accuracy. It can shoot down to 0.25" groups at 50 yards with very good ammo, but cannot average at the level. I'm thinking it may have the potential though. Here is a group I shot at 25 yards for an on line fun challenge. It requires four 5 shot groups on one target, all under 1/4". Seems like it should be easy, but it is not all that easy. Took about 4 attempts and I just squeaked in with one group real close to 1/4".



Any comments on the various cutters are appreciated. I see they differ in the number of blades on the cutter, and wondered if more is better, or is technique the secret to getting a clean chatter free cut?

Ron

Ron,

Chatter is a complex phenomena. Depth of cut, properties of barrel material, number and angular spacing of flutes, type of coolant, feed pressure, RPM, RIGIDITY of the system in general,
any one of these factors is important. There are only three ways to get chatter free crown - on the lathe, with Manson tools or by grinding/lapping, and only two of them will give you accurate and square crown. Any other cutter sold in the market may give you chatter, or may not, if you're very lucky. What you call "honing oil" is not really a chatter fix, it is not required, for example, if you do crowning with use of above mentioned three methods. And light pressure is not as important as limiting the depth of cut and keeping CONSISTENT feed pressure and rate. If you want quality finish and square crown, you got two options - lathe (assuming setup is done relative to the barrel bore) or Manson tools. Brass screws, balls and other kindergarden technologies...you actually figured that by yorself - is a joke.

You mentioned RIGIDITY. I am not so sure you are that rigid with what I suspect is a method using the Manson tool with a hand held drill motor. Different barrel makers have different sized bores in their rifle's barrels. Unless you have a tight fitting bushing on the end of your tool AND do it in a properly set up lathe operation, you CANNOT get as good a job using your method. You don't need a cutting oil or any extra added rigidity on a lathe, just a properly sharpened single point tool bit. I have a lot of respect for Manson's tooling but have no use for the crowning tool

I am aware of different types of actions, I have re-crowned most all of them at one time or another and not one single one took me even close to an hour to disassemble it

Jkob,

You are obviosuly not familiar at all with Manson crowning tools and principle of their operation. If you're interested, you can find more details on the web. Thre is also a complete manual posted on the web. Also, rigidity is only one of factors palying role in "chatter" problem. Did you ever use a Dremel tool? Got any chatter with it? I bet not. Dremel tool and your hand holding it has zero rigidity as a system.

Also, did you read my posts carefully? I said one hour for DISASSEMBLY AND ASSEMBLY. Can you ASSEMBLE rifle in 0 seconds?
Would you agree that assembly takes longer than disaasembly?
Are you familiar with assembly/disassembly of any firearm?

I think it is "Obvious" that you know nothing of my qualifications and whether or not I am familiar with the Manson tooling.

End of discussion

WOW... 134 crowns in 3 months.. That's over 2 crowns every working day... Must be a new franchise in town: 'Crowns R Us'... Sure must be a bunch of terrible crowns on firearms in your area..

Considering all the other types of jobs most smiths do, you must be busier than a one-armed paper hanger...

See, I treat gunsmithing as a hobby business, my main job is in engineering. So, I only elect to do things which give me income per unit of time (I mean pay rate) higher than my current daytime job pays. So, I do not do, for example, barrel chambering or other things which require lots of labor or I'm not familiar with. I do crowning, scopes, sometimes muzzle brake installations and some very special projects that I can have fun with, like aluminum stocks.

It was actually more than 6000/45=134 crowns. After local people got an idea of improvement thru re-crowning, some guys were bringing 3-4 guns at once - they would get some discount, of course. So, it was, probably, close to 160-170 crowns. I also sold lots of crowning work right at the firing range of Conservation Club - you can do crowns with Manson toolkit anywhere you go, as long as having gun around is legal.

Piece of cake.

So, with all these people bringing scads of rifles for recrowns, what did you tell them when the 'new' crown did bupkis, since there are many firearms out there with no need? Or did you fully inspect the area first and advise against wasting the money?

If you're doing muzzle brake installs, that means you're using a lathe.. That also means you probably have to keep firearms overnight.. That means an FFL is a requirement. You have one?

Nothing personal, just askin'...

I think Lee24 changed his name!!

I'm not so bad. If crown looks even in width and concentric to the bore, and has no damage, I advise not to re-crown. One of the reasons I absolutely like to do it is because re-crowned gun with originally "correct" crown is not likely to show condsiderable accuracy improvement, which is main selling point of this procedure. Customer should see improvement, then I have business. I never touch custom guns, of course, no matter what. Approximately 1/3 of guns I see have decent crowns.
Nearly all milsurplus rifles need work, many revolvers too.
Many factory rifles have crappy crowns right from the factory.
Commercial pistols are not bad, I've noticed Glocks have a particularly good crowns. So, I'm being decent here. I do not need every buck I see, I get enought respect as is.

You got to realize something - with PORTABLE toolkit from Manson I'm not trapped in a shop waiting for the customer. I just take it with me and do a couple of crowns between a couple of vodka
shots with my budies, kind of extreme example, but you should get the picture...

Your second question is personal.
I can assure you I'm in compliance.

BTW, revolvers with fixed signts proved to be a great marketing tool. I had one guy with 2.5"(?) snubnose, which was hitting like 3 feet to the left of POA at 15 yards. Re-cut the crown, brought POI to like 4" from POA. Guy was so impressed, brought ALL his 5 guns for crowning job. I did 3. His Glock and Kimber pistolas were fine as is, but .22 and two Mauser sporters needed work. That guy then got so happy with what I did, he probably made me famous by himself.

I also put 11 deg. crowns on 12 gauge Rem 870 slug barrels.
Waiting for a feed back from those two guys.

LMAO....

'Nuff said..

I'm outta here....

Why LMAO?

Slug barrels with 11 degree target crown? Makes no sense to you?

Unless you should have had a chance to see those two barrels before - muzzle ends looked like a real POS, was not even round to the eye, and with a couple of dings right at the bore edges. Sold at Walmart, what do you want for $290 for a combo.

Kinda intereted to see how, as you said, you can tell if a crown is concentric to the bore!!!!!

Well, pretty much in the same way as everybody else.

Can you tell if crown needs to be re-cut?

LMFAO

It's a bit weird. All you guys do is LMFAO. Do you do any gunsmithing at all?

Now THAT'S funny, since we were about to ask you the same thing..

Ok, so a 'crown' is gonna fix that?? ROTFLMAO... 'Bore edges'?? Maybe you mean muzzle. .. That often happens, but the PROPER fix is a muzzle refacing...

Oh, and your post above replying to my query re: muzzle brakes. Your reply went right to PORTABLE tools.. I didn't ASK about the portable Manson tools.. I'm well aware of them and have a couple sets myself for those few firearms I cannot work with in a lathe.. I was specific in asking about your muzzle brake installs.. You ignored that. I wonder why??

I'm smelling a whole pile of BS...

Oh, and BTW, asking if you have an FFL is not a personal question. Jkob has one. I have one. So do the other smiths on this board.. You say you're ' in compliance'.. Ok, so what's your FFL number?

Imperfections at the muzzle end of shotgun barrels were removed by using shotgun refacer (zero degree cutter), then 11 degree
cutter was mounted onto the spindle of shotgun refacer, to give
additional protection to the bore at the muzzle. It was a fix for bad barrel muzzle appearance. It was not done under promise to improve accuracy, although it may potentially contribute.

I bit more reading for you from respectable source:

www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=656 - 55k -

Like I said, I'm in compliance as far as I'm concerned. You point of view on this subject is irrelevant. I owe you nothing, and I'm not interested to know your FFL number. I can not see how you'll be benefiting from knowning somebody's else FFL number in discussing best 11 deg. crown. You just seems to be mean for the reasons I do not understand.

But I do have a question: Why do you need a couple of Manson toolkits? They are expensive. I have one with all 15 pilots and other accesories, it was not cheap, but it made bunch of money for me. So, why do you have two of them? I'm puzzled...

SOmeone once said, "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging"

I think you are in way too deep to recover.

Apparently you did not read fully the post I left above yours.. The Manson tools, as I stated above, are used when I have firearms in that cannot be set up in the lathe..

Many gunsmithing tools are expensive.. Consider the choke tube tooling which runs over $500.00 PER GAUGE... Part of the job..

I'm not being 'mean', only wondering how you can get by charging people for work you're most likely not licensed for.. I welcome any new gunsmith into the fold who operates as he/she should and I've done my best to help others here with questions, advice or info on parts etc.. What you've posted so far, tells us that you're not in compliance with the BATFE and that is of some concern, not only to (I'll bet) them but it should be of concern to your 'customers' AND to your state of residence when it comes to sales taxes...

YOU say you're '....in compliance as far as I'm concerned'... but that means didley when it comes to the state revenue dept., the BATFE and to your overall potential liability if something goes wrong..

Since you refuse to answer we can only assume you have no FFL.. For your own work, or for minor work you do for a few others, who cares?? I certainly do not.. But when you're basically in business, going by your statements, it's a whole new ballgame, especially if you ever keep a 'customer's' firearm in your residence overnight... Maybe it gets my goat a little because I went through the whole process to become licensed, obtain a sales tax number, Imust keep full and available records for the BATFE, built my own shop, have overhead and something like 20 thousand bux invested in tooling to become a legitimate businessman and gunsmith. There's a guy in a town near me who does what you 'seem' (I say 'seem' because you don't provide info to prove otherwise) to be doing; operating illegally as a gunsmith.. He'll get caught, in time.. It's going to cost him plenty when he does..

But, what the heck.. As long as you can get away with it, giverhell... You're only putting yourself at risk... Especially with this statement: THAT speaks volumes..

Have a great day..

I see what your concern is. You have a good point here.

I do pay taxes, as a memebr of LLC, from any additional profits I get besides my day time job.

2. There is indeed a fine line here. On one hand, this income from my hobby bussiness is a very small portion, less than 10%, of my total income, so I do not do gunsmithing for living. On the other hand, there are certain provisions in the law, which may be interpereted as a requirement to have license in any case, although these interpetations vary a lot depending on whom you ask.

3. I do not have FFL, and I do NOT keep other people guns overnight, as it would be illegal w/o FFL. My friend, FFL holder and machine shop owner, is in charge, when there is a need for me to help him to thread a barrel, and he keeps all records. As of today, I do not do it any more, requires too much time.

4. Your last post convienced me to become certified, although I do not have plans to do gunsmithing for living, it would still be, I think, of a certain benefit to me.

Take care.

Question for Redneck:

I do not have an FFL. Years ago, I worked as a gunsmith, stock finishing, installing recoil pads, fitting barrels, test firing, etc. This was before 1968, and I did not need an FFL.

I still have some of the tools, and occasionally, I will re-finish a stock or install a recoil pad, or mount a scope or piller bed a rifle. I still have my lathe, but I use it for other purposes than gun work.

I am retired, draw a pension, and what gun work I do is not for additional income, but because I still enjoy doing it. I haven't charged anyone for what minor repairs I can do, or have done.

I'm not going to get involved in building a $10,000.00 custom rifle, but I do have the ability, but why should someone pay me to build it when there are people who advertise in magazines and build them everyday? I have also crowned a few barrels.

My question is, is what I do illegal? It has been two or three years since I worked on a gun, and IIRC, that was only mounting a scope and sighting it in, then clening it for a friend. No charge, except he did furnish the ammunition too sight it in.

I repeat, I am not in business. You mention "overnight" in your post. If I re-finish a stock, naturally, I would have to keep it overnight. Several overnights, to allow the finish to dry. Is this illegal? Just curious.

I ain't Redneck, but my interpretation of the laws are that if you are not being compensated then its is not illegal.

Correct.. But he stated he's made over 6 grand in 3 months.. That, my friends, is compensation...

He's deliberately ignoring not just once, but several times, what I'm asking which tells me something smells like old fish...

I guess he's not smart enough to know they can track him down by his IP address if they wanted to.If they find out and go after him they'll be pipeing sunshine to him.

Not disagreeing with you my friend just answering 13579's question.

no comment on the other dude from me

I gave up.

Can't fool Redneck.

Technical part of muzzle crowning story was correct.

Making money as a gunsmith was fiction.

Congrats, Redneck!

To the op, I have the brownells 11 degree cutter, and made up a handle and pilots on a small lathe. I've done several re-crowns with the tool, and I have yet to be happy with the resultant accuracy. It is a step up from a hacksaw cut bubba sporterized milsurp rifle, but a far cry from a quality crown.

Either use a suitable lathe, or pay a real gunsmith to do the work for you. I already paid for my education on this issue.

PS,

The overnight issue requiring an FFL is as I understand it, if you keep somones firearm, i.e. a complete firearm or any part or combination of parts containing the s/n action you have to have an FFL.

If the person is on the premises while you do a quick repair you don't need an FFL, if you are only working on say a barrel for t/c contender or encore you dont' need an ffl, or if you are refinishing a bare stock, i.e. stock sans barreled action you don't need an FFL.

For many years I thought putting together a part time gunsmithing shop for work on the side would be a great idea. Then I looked into FFL requirements, insurance, liability, tooling etc and figured it just wasn't worth it.

And somehow it seems the guys doing underground work seem to put out underground quality. Either one is serious about doing it right, in all aspects, or they aren't.

"Originally Posted By: THOMASMAGNUM
I ain't Redneck, but my interpretation of the laws are that if you are not being compensated then its is not illegal."

"Correct.. But he stated he's made over 6 grand in 3 months.. That, my friends, is compensation...

He's deliberately ignoring not just once, but several times, what I'm asking which tells me something smells like old fish..."

UH, Redneck, THOMASMAGNUM was answering my question and responding to my statement. Not to that of someone else.

No worries on my part, guys I am cool with everybody here.

Yep.. As long as the firearm is in/out in the same day, no requirement.. I'm betting that's not always the case, especially with muzzle brake install..

It does take serious investment and comes with serious liability; both lacking with Mr. Mishka...

How true...

Sorry.. Didn't notice that.. But his post could very well apply anyway...



For a few bux they'll not bother.. But a statement about over 6 grand in 3 months for crowns alone may very well bring a whole lot of unwanted attention.. Not to mention a possible IRS audit if he's not reporting this 'vodka/crown' income.. Not to mention the state dunning this dude for failure to collect/report sales taxes along with failure to apply for a tax collection id.. Not to mention the BATFE getting involved as to meeting federal requirements re: licensing... They specifically state 'occasional' smithing needs no requirement.. But it's up to them to define 'occasional'.. I have a feeling that 6 grand in 3 months is a bit more than occasional..

But whatever... It's up to them...

I'll shut up now and leave this alone... Most likely to everyone's relief..

Was the finish good? If so, then I take it your only concern was the resulting accuracy?

Ron

Typically the finish had chatter marks. I tried a variety of lubricants. The problem is once the chatter marks show up, you can't really do anything about them sans chucking it up in the lathe and doing it right, or getting out the hacksaw to take off another chunk of barrel and starting over.

And yes, I was not happy with the accuracy. A good example was a ruger 22/45. It shot fairly well ~1" and change at 25 yds, but I figured a new crown would increase the accuracy. I was wrong, the groups opened up to about 2".

As I recall I used it on that 22/45, a 357 and 44 mag blackhawk and super blackhawk, and a t/c 357 mag barrel. Oh there might have been an 8mm mauser as well.

What's the point of an 11 deg target crown if not for top accuracy? And I lathe turned the pilots for each barrel for minimal fit in the bore.

Mishka:

I agree: I don't want my rifle "stripped and chucked" in 15 minutes. I have a lot of machine shop experience and access to these machines (big enough to pass the action through the head). I had planned to make my own expanding pilot setup for the standard brownell's cutter but then I saw the David Manson setup and decided to just find someone with that tool. Where are you located? I already asked D.M. Reamers if they will refer me to a shop in my area with this tooling.

If you don't have a lathe for the job the Manson is the best tool for the job. If I'm not mistaken MF of NULA arms crowns all his rifles with the hand tool and not the lathe. The Manson tool is really expensive for one crowning job. You need to find a local smith and save shipping just to have it re-crowned. Rednecks offer is very reasonable except for the shipping both ways. I have never used Redneck for rifle work but he has a good rep with guys on this forum who has had him do work for them.

nt

My dremel stone on a step crown E.R. Shaw barrel for a 10/22 reduced groups size with SK std Plus at 25 yards from .155"-.275" groups to .045"-.130".

Cost me $5........

That said, find a local smith and build a relationship. The dividends of giving a guy your business pay off in the long run.

If you must do it yourself, buy the manson set, and the offer a deal on a crown job too your hunting buddies to help recover the cost as it is expensive for just one.

Dammit Butch I wish you had left it as is. I still think this guy is Phuqued in the head.

No offense but I wouldn't get to excited about getting the batfe involved in audting anyone. It seems that as soon as the problems are away, they'll be knocking your door down looking for reasoning to keep their job. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I also feel it's B.S that an amateur couldn't keep someones firearm overnite for repair, wether or not he has an FFL, or not. As far as worrying about a part timer around the corner offering the same service as you, it will never go away. As soon as that guy disappears, there will be another fool to take his place. I understand it's a frustratng part of being self employeed. I have the same dilemma in my line of work. Your further ahead to concentrate on your own business. I am unfarmiliar with the manson kit, but the cutters he's using I sware are made by neway mfg. It's a company that builds tooling, and such for the automotive machine shop. They are used for cutting valve seats in that line of work. As far as the pilots he's using I'd be interested if they are also from the automotive machine industry.

Get a copy of Gunsmiths Kinks if you want to learn off the wall ways of doing things! Sold by Brownells Inc.
whelennut

I realize this post is old but stumbled across it. It is the IRS that would take exception to the 6k earnings, not the ATFE.