Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa First shot on Elephant- where and w/ what bullet?

A friend of mine is planning to go to Africa this year with Elephant as first priority. From what he has gleaned thus far he is planning to use his 416 Rigby with 400 grain Barnes X bullets and H4350 powder. He does not have a load worked up yet but has heard that H4350 is "the" powder for that case/bullet weight. He has also heard that the best first shot to take is a double lung/heart shot with an expanding premium bullet followed up by solids. Is he on the right track? Thanks, Rufous.

The Barnes-X bullets are well thought of but I was under the impression that solids, and only solids, are used on elephants. The best PH I've hunted with told me he prefers his clients to use the basic heart/lung shot, depending on the angle, for the 1st shot. He also told me that if the client insists on trying a brain shot that he would ishoot mmediately after the client shot...also shooting for the brain.

Even though the Xs are sort of a "super-solid," I don't think any PH will let you use them on elephant. I've never taken an elephant, probably never will. Too damend expensive. I use IMR 4350 with 400gr Swifts and Hornady solids with great accuracy results. The powders are almost identical so I'm sure it'll work just fine. The 416 Rigby is Tony Sanchez Arino's favorite cartridge for elephant. Tony is arguably the greatest LIVING elephant hunter. He's in his 70s and STILL takes clients out. As a matter of fact, when I spoke with him at SCI in Reno, he was leaving Saturday for the Cameroons on a hunt. From speaking with him and others, elephants are not particularly tough critters. A lung shot elephant will die, often times after a 200-500 yard "death sprint." I saw my uncle shoot one in Angola in the late 60s, it was a heart shot. The beast ran pumping blood like a fire hose then it keeled over after said sprint. Most PHs DO follow up with an insurance shot, elephants are just too damned expensive to wound and lose. The best thing to do is ASK the PH what he recommends and go with it. jorge

There are videos of elephants being shot over on AR. I don't where they are shooting ... but they drop in their spot.

I know to each their own ... but watching those videos makes me sad. Just don't see why someone would want to hunt an elephant. But again ... to each their own.

Avagadro: Elephants are no different than deer or any other game animal. It has been proven time and time again that game HAS to pay it's own way if it is to survive. In Kenya for example, when hunting was banned in the 70s because the hunters were getting in the way of the poachers and their benefactors in the government, elephant populations plumetted. Today, there is virtually no game in Kenya except inside the National Parks.

Moreover, elephant are one of the most destructive of all game animals and when do that, they take a lot more other species with them. They have to and MUST be controlled if the rest of game is to survive. If it makes you feel any different, I've seen the results of one pissed off rogue elephant. There was no much left of the poor individual. Hope I've helped you understand the elephant hunting situation better. I'm only disappointed that I will never be able to afford one. jorge

I killed my first and only elephant last year in Zimbabwe. It was a 55lb a side bull. I used a .416 Rem Mag with 400 grain Barnes solids. The PH insisted I use only solids. He prefers that clients go for a shoulder/leg shot (aim where the bottom of the elle's ear touches the center of the leg.) We spotted the big bull in a fairly open area with grass up to our waists and scattered trees. The elephant started moving toward thicker cover and we ran (keeping downwind) for about 300 yards, stopping whenever the elephant would stop (he would always stop behind a group of trees.) Finally the old bull confronted us at about 40 yards, shaking his heard and making short charges, kicking up dust and grass with his front feet. The PH told me that if he charged us, to go for the brain shot (aim at a point center of the head where a stick through the earholes would bisect) and he would back me up (he had a .500 Jefferys with solids).

Instead of charging the bull turned sideways and I hit him in the leg/shoulder and the bull was instantly anchored (the problem with a side brain shot is if you miss the brain the bull can travel all night and recover completely). Per the PHs earlier directions I firsted once more into the bulls shoulder and the PH and I ran to with 20 yards. I shot once more but by that time the bull was screaming his last and toppling to the ground. At 2 steps, I put one more into his spine as insurance and we stood around talking as the bull expired.

A heart/lung shot is supposed to be a good target except (based on my research and what experienced elephant hunters have told me), bull elephants tend to run in the direction they are facing (although cows are reported to turn toward the shot) when first shot and can run 2 or 300 yards even when a perfect heart shot is made, and a less than perfect shot can result in a lost elephant.

I had the satisfaction of cleaning killing my bull in open country where the bull was already aware that we were a threat and, most importantly killed the bull without any asistance shots from the PH.

Regardless, if I was your friend I would check with his PH, because it would be a shame to haul those rounds over to Africa and be told by the PH that he can't use them, only solids!

"""""I know to each their own ... but watching those videos makes me sad. Just don't see why someone would want to hunt an elephant. But again ... to each their own. """""

George Im sure your statement doesnt come from arrogance or any kind of non-hunting attitude. But we have to watch it when we start compareing game animals to cuddly cartoon characters. Frankly, and I mean no disrespect, when I hear statements like this from a hunter it makes me re-call the "Walt Disney propoganda" I was exposed to in my youth. "Luckily I was raised by a bowhunter/conservationalist" father".

Im no elephant expert but Ive gleaned a bit in my two travels"over there", talked to some who hunted them, and read a ton. They are nothing but a big game animal who must be controlled, whos individuals must be harvested for the betterment of their species as a whole. The big enemy of the African elephant is poaching and habitat destruction, and even with that there is something over 800,000 elephants in Africa. In some places they are a dangerous nuisance.

Those zoo signs dont always tell the truth when they write "endangered" on them.

I hear these sentiments an awful lot from other hunters when the subject of "elephant" comes up. I hear when "bears" comes up, "mountain Lions", "Lions", "zebra"...ect We seem to have this residual brain washing in our minds from our childhood cartoons or something.

There should be an amount of sadness in killing any animal, and ive never met a hunter that enjoyed the suffering of any critter they crippled. If anything the kind of folks Ive hunted with would march for days to find a crip.

Personal I consider anyone who would drop that much coin to take an elephant as a strong conservationalist. How many of these arrogant antis would spend that much on their little "camera clicking vacations"? Elephants are a renewable resource anyway, so why would we feel anymore "sorrow" then in the takeing of any other animal?

Just think about what Im saying thats all. Take care...............10

Actually Elephants are only endangered in countries where they do not allow hunting. Once an Elephant or any other animal has a dollar value they are watched pretty closely because it's somebodys investment and income.

RSA has a large harvestable surplus of elephants but because of a few other countries who have no management whatsoever (Kenya for example) the trade is restricted. Elephants are no different then a deer, buffao, or Kudu in that the the surplus must be taken out or the damage to the habitat they live in will suffer horribly. When elephants over populate the stress to the herd and the damage to the landscape must be seen to be believed.

It's always better to have the number "just right" then too many. RSA has been doing a great job with this over the years and allows elephant hunting as a regular trophy in many locations. I spent a month in Kruger park last year. I saw Hundreds of elephants during that time, maybe thousands? We would see many groups of them while driving every single day, and not in the same location. We covered 1200 KM avg per tour group.

So long as the population is kept at a managable level elephants will be around for ever in Kruger. If hunting were stopped in RSA the habitat would suffer, water would be abused, and the money to defend poaching would run out. Imagine how much financial support the parks and poaching enforcement recieve from the harvest of a few surplus elephants each year. Take that away and it turns into Kenya with a serious Elephant problem. No hunting equals no value. No value and they dissapear over time. How many entry fee's from "sight seeing" park visitors will it take to equal the income from a sigle one that is hunted? I doubt there are that many park visitors in a season!

Successful wildlife management is all about the money!

I guess I really should expand on my previous statement. Prior to few months ago, the only thing I knew of hunting the dark continent was those few clips of hunting elepant in Africa on AR. Here is what I see, a few men walking up to within 50-75 yards, shooting and seeing the elephant fall. Based on that, I had no real desire to hunt in Africa. I don't care if I'm called a pussy ... those video clips are sad to me.

10 point ... my comments do not come from arrogance, if anything they come from ignorance (on my part). After reading posts from jorge and JJ, I do have a respect for hunting in Africa and actually do want to schedule a trip sometime in my life. I think it would be an incredible experience. Me anti-hunting? (although understandable from my post) ... that would be far from the truth ... I get excited about going out squirrel hunting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let me get a chance at a deer and I usually can't sleep the nite before.

I understand that they need to be controlled like all game animals. I also know I am ignorant when it come to the hunting of them ... I'm sure there is a lot more that goes into hunting them (& if I did it I would probably be equally excited), than I have seen (and I don't mean money) and the stalk must also be a fantastic rush ... but that is not what I saw in the video, what I saw in the video was saddening to me.

Everyone makes reference to how much they cost ... how much do they cost to hunt? I don't think the sticker shock will hurt me, I recently heard what it cost to hunt an AK brown bear ($10k), and a big horn sheep ($40k+) ... how much more is an elepant?

Thanks for your time, and for you elephant hunters, good luck, maybe I'll get to meet you while plains hunting some day!

George I'm with you. I don't want to kill an elephant either. Even if I could afford it I wouldn't want to kill one. What would I do with it after I killed it. There are only so many piano keyboards that I need.

I know all the things that JJ and 10point and the others have said. I don't have a bit of a problem with anyone else that wants to legaly killing an elephant doing so.

I don't think it is any repressed Disney in me it's just that I don't want to do it. Maybe it's the way they look or their size or something I don't know. Just have no desire what ever to shoot one. Now if the old peanut eater was going to stomp on me or something that is another matter entirely. I'd do him in a New York minute in that case. Otherwise I'll leave him alone and hope he'd do the same for me.

There are folks who say they can't kill a dog or a horse or kill and eat a show calf that they have raised. I can and have done all of the above. I just don't want to kill an elephant.

Like I said, though, got not a whit of a problem with anybody else that does want to.


BCR

Well here-in lies the problem, and bear with me here. I suspect that many of you who "dont want to kill an elephant", "because it makes you sad", wouldnt much care one way or another if elephant hunting was banned. Or zebra hunting, "cause zebras remind you of your pet horse",. The horse lovers wouldnt blink an eye cause "I dont".

How about the guys who never shoot HP matches, "I could care less if AR-15 type rifles were banned because I dont want to shoot one".

Back to citters. How many non-Lion hunters in CA cared about lion hunting being banned there? Again, cause "I dont want to shoot a cuddly mountain lion". How about when polar bear hides were banned, or cheetahs, or running hounds on M-Lion? How about that media travesty when blk bears were hunted in N.J. ?

For to long weve allowed ourselves to be split because "I dont"! You say you have no residual Disney poisening but the only place feelings like this are apparent are in western media cultures. You think that African thinks an elephant is cute? Or sad? Or a hippo wears a pink dress and flies in the air? Or cute little widdley animals talk and live in nice painted houses?

They could just liss the hunter for getting rid of this monstrosity thats eating them out of house and home, chewing on their kids, killing their cattle, forceing them to have eyes in the back of their head. There is no "cute" or "sad" in real nature. Theres only nature, and its cruel.

Sorry I think to many hunters have to much "Me" in them, or to much Disney poisening. No Insult, Im not even saying enyone here does. Just think about it thats all.

Sorry to steal the thread............10

10point the only person in the world that I can speak for is me just like the only person you can speak for, I suppose, is you. That said, you may be right in some cases and there may be some truth in what you say. In my case you are not right and there is no truth.

I don't want any type of hunting banned save what is illegal. I don't hunt ducks either but I am all in favor of duck season. Alot of folks do hunt them and it gives them a lot of pleasure. That is fine and I am all in favor of it. In my case it is a personal decision not to kill an elephant or a duck. No deep dark conspiracy against any type of hunting just a personal decision. The reasons for it are mine and mine alone, they may not suit you but they suit me. Why isn't it ok if I don't want to kill something? As long as I have no objections to someone else doing legal hunting and support their right to do so why isn't it fine and dandy if I just don't want to? If solid science and managment says a game population can bear taking X number of animals or X number of animals need to be killed to maintain the health and well being of the whole and their environment then I say have at it. Just excuse me if I don't want to partake and let somebody else have my part. Why isn't that okay? If I was an African tribesman I'd probably feel different about elephants but I ain't and I don't.

As far as gun bans as to type I sort of think we are doing apples and oranges here. The tool instead of the job. No, I don't own an AR15, don't want one, but sure don't want to see them banned. Same with 50 BMG rifles. Don't want one, have no use for one, but don't want to see them banned. Spend money to lobby against all types of gun bans. Lord, man I am even in favor of steel traps.

I would agree with you that there are some who only care about their own particular niche and devil take the rest. Sure don't think that applies across the board though.

BCR

""""""""No Insult, Im not even saying anyone here does"""""""

I have to agree with Boggy, I'm not against any type of hunting as long as its good for its local ecosystem and the animal of concern is not being hunted into extinction.

Its just not my bag ... I can't say I'll never want to hunt an elephant, but as of now I don't think its very high on my todo list. Just above castration and just below buying tampons for my financee. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My original post had nothing to do with my opposition to anything. It was my feeling regarding a particular piece of video I watched. You did get that part... correct? I think on this topic we can agree to disagree. I'm not insulted by what you said, and if you want to hunt them and have the money ... more power to you. In fact I probably would read any reports you posted here telling your story. It has nothing with an elephant being cute ... (how the hell can an elephant be cute?) ... as stated in my original post on this thread ... to each their own.

Brain shots ...always solids!!

One more time......""""""""No Insult, Im not even saying anyone here does"""""""

Fellers I wasnt talking about any of you, I was talking about a tendency in hunting nowdays. And frankly, it bothers me. If I blather on it because I dont ever want to see us lose this sport, and I never want to see Africa lost, not any part of it or any animal.

As one we will save hunting/shooting/gun ownership. In pieces we will lose it. That was all I was saying. No insult was intended.........good hunting...........10

dontmiss,
what does "55lb a side" mean? (pardon my ignorance)

Just about all game animals are measured in some way. Elephants are measured or "scored" by the weight of their tusks. The 55 a side refers to the weight of each tusk. 100 pounds( total) is the SCI minimum score so the 55 a side would put a bull like that well above the minimum entry level, or in other words its a very nice bull.

several of the biggest bulls of all time of which 7 ( The magnificent 7) came from Kruger park in RSA. All are on diplay there as well. A few of those bulls are over 100 pounds per side. It takes a bull a very long time to get that much mass. Maybe on the order of 50 years or more. Many of those big bulls will likely never be surpassed in our lifetime.

Of the big bulls displayed in the park museum most had serious bullet injuries from poachers which required them to be put down. If you ever have the chance to visit Kruger park the display of big bulls is worth the time to see it.

One of the most amazing displays is of two elephants that had been fighting. One bull drove his tusk through the skull of another bull. It was lodged so tightly the bull could not pull it free and they both died that way. The elephant's skulls with the tusk stuck through the skull are on display there as well.

JJ, tusk through the skull. That must be something to see. Would there be any chance of you taking a picture of that some time and putting it up where we could look at it? Sure like to see that.

I grew up reading the old Africa stuff about elephant hunting. What would your guess be as to the odds of a hunter legally killing a hundred pounder today?


BCR

A 100 pounder or close is possible and I hear of them from time to time. The areas they are going to be found will cost more money then even the elite will typically have though. The combination of an extremely fit guy able to walk 15 miles a day every day for a couple weeks and the wealth to pay for this kind of endurance hunting is a rare combination. There are guys fit enough to do this with the drive and determination, but those folks are not the typical wealthy hunter able to afford it. Then we have the extreme wealthy hunter which because of age or fitness level is not going to manage the endurance requirements of long hot walks through the bush following tracks for days and weeks at a time.

Last year I was sent an Email from a friend in Africa who had a hunter shoot a bull with 80 pound plus tusks. They assumed it was bigger and were actually dissapointed! The big problem I see with judgeing a 100 pounder is that there are not enough PH's alive today that have seen more then one or two that big in the bush, even in parks. Last year in Kruger I saw quite a few that would go 50 plus with no problem. I saw a handful that might make 75 pounds and one or maybe two that were bigger but I have no way to guess that weight. One of the biggest had a broken tusk. Now remember I was there for four weeks every day and saw a lot more then a typical 3-5 day visitor! The bulls are there you just have to be lucky or spend a lot of time to see the really big ones.

I'll look through the pictures I have and see what I can find to post here.