Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing 35 Whelen case failure ?

Can anyone identify the problem .

I have a 35 Whelen custom built on a 700 rem action ... the barrel was purchased and mounted by a local gunsmith .

The first two season I have used either factory ammo or new brass reloads , this year I when working up loads I started "2nd " loading brass and immediately had a case separation .. upon opening the bolt I removed only the rim and 1/2 inch of case ..bounce the butt on the padded bench and the balance drops from the action .. flat primers and shiny extractor mark ..... wow must have made a mistake at the bench pulled all bullets and checked poweder and weight .. no problem match loads previously shot with virgin brass .

Went back to a starter load ... IMR 4064 .. 54.0 GRAINS ..225 NOSLER PARTITION ...... 1ST ROUND FIRED EXACTLY THE SAME SEPARATION OF CASE AND PRESSURE SIGNS ??

Drop a Federal 225 grain bear claw and the rifle shoots like a charm with no separation .

I am not a rooky at rolling my own ... been doing this successfully for 30 years ... do I have a chamber at the edge of tolerance and not seeing it until the 2nd load of the brass ?

Any feedback would be appreciated .

Something is not matching up between your brass and chamber to give case seperations.

You can get a head space gauge to check that chamber or have a gunsmith do it for you .

But I would buy a RCBS case mike to check the head space of the different lots of BRASS first .

I do remember reading about 35 Whelen case head space problems years ago . Some batches of brass had shorter than minimum hs.

If you don't measure the brass and chamber anything said here would be just a guess....

"do I have a chamber at the edge of tolerance and not seeing it until the 2nd load of the brass ?"

That is what it sounds like to me.

It might be that your sizing die is over-sizing by setting the shoulder back too much, creating the equivelent of excessive headspace.

Try simply neck sizing and load up a few loads with your starter load. It everything works okay, then you know the cases are stretching too much.

There could be two reasons for this, or a combination of both reasons. (1) the chamber could have been reamed too deep, creating excesive headspace. When the new, factory case fires, it stretches, but not to the breaking point.

(2) In combination with the too deep chamber, you could be setting the shoulder back to original factory dimensions, as mentioned in the first paragraph above. This second resizing, along with the second case lengthening when the cases is fired is stretching the brass, work hardening it, more that it can handle, so it seperates.

Flattened primers and shiney extracter (probably ejecter) marks indications of high pressures? There has been a lot said and done on this subject. More said than done, in some instances.

You could have excessive pressures, but there is no sure way to tell without pressure testing equipment.

If your rifle has a short throat, normal loads can create higher pressures than a longer throat, with the same loads. Whether they would be high enough to be excessive or not, the only way to determine would be with pressure testing equipment.

The Nosler Partition might be longer and have a different shaped ogive, decreasing the amount of jump before the bullet engages the rifling. This situation can and will cause an increase in pressures as compared with a bullet that has some clearence in the throat before it engages the rifling. Whether or not the pressure increase would make the pressures too high can only be determined by a pressure guage.

I would make a guess that the case mouth is jamming into
the front of the chamber, and that the shoulder is too far forward. Try moving the case mouth back a bit, and firing
with an oiled case. If the stretch and pressure dissapear
you need to talk to the gunsmith.
Good Luck!

I dont follow the logic here.
If the shoulder is "too far forward" why is the case coming apart and how can the round chamber?
Oiling a case and firng it in a chamber thats already giving case troubles doesnt sound like the way to go either.
Oil in the chamber sounds like a good way to get a face full of gas because you will have less of a seal when the next case comes apart.
Enlighten me.

If the chamber was cut with a correctly ground reamer, there will be enough clearence in front of the neck to prevent the case neck from jamming into the front of the chamber.

My guess is the chamber is too deep, I.E., excessive head space. Firing the case, resizing it to near original dimensions, then firing it again is working the brass past its yeild point.

You need a tool that accurately measures the distance from the base to a point on the shoulder, then compare a fired case with an unfired one. If the fired case is significantly longer, then the case is stretching, causing it to seperate.

There was something on the forums that tells how to place a fired pistol case over the neck of the fired cartridge and measuring, before and after firing, with a micro caliper. A .40 caliber or a .45 ACP case should work on a .35 Whelen. This won't give you the exact headspace, but it will give you a reference point for comparison purposes.

Also, the chamber may or may not be cut with the correct length throat, also know as a bullet seat, or leade, for the handloads and bullets you are using.

I have had some experience with rifles that were incorrectly chambered, and they will cause you to pull your hair out trying to figure out what is wrong.

It does sound as if the chamber is too deep (long?).
That would give the pressure indications.
If the mouth of the case is jamming on the bullet it will raise
pressure (a lot). Cutting a scosh will check this. Oiling the case will allow the case to come back at low pressure then expand forward without the stretch ring.
All this is a check of the chamber; too much headspace, short
throat.
How yoy thing that oiling the case will cause "gas in the face"
escapes me. It sounds like a bad chamber, this would prove it. Take Care!

I think I would take a little different approach to this.

First off I'd invest 50 bucks in an RCBS Precision Mic and check whats happening to the shoulder of a once fired case.

I agree that it sounds like excessive headspace but I'm not to big on pulling the trigger on full power rounds that are already coming apart at the seams just to prove or disprove a theory.

If you dont think my way is the way to go then oil up that case and have at it but consider investing that 50 bucks in a good set of shooting glasses.

You take care too.

Just a thought, custom 35 Whelen built on a 700.

Could it be a 35 Whelen AI ? Could be chamber cut in Akley ?

Ken

Oiling a case even on a normal chamber is a good way to really mess up.

Oiled or not, the case is still going to stretch and seperate if the chamber is cut too deep. Besides even if it is excessive headspace, if it is not too excessive, the case won't seperate. (Maybe not, anyway).

If the chamber is actually too deep, this is not what is causing the seperation. What is causing the seperation is the case stretching on the first firing, being resized back to original dimensios, and fired and stretching again, over working the brass.

You might try a different brand of brass, brass that is softer, and get two or three firings before it seperates.

I like the idea that it might be a .35 Whelen AI. That would account for lengthening the brass on firing, shortening it on re-sizing, then lengthening it when fired again. Too much of this will weaken the brass.

Could you post a picture of a once fired case alongside an unfired case?

I have a custom barreled .35 whelen in a Ruger #1 that has a chamber on the long side of "normal". I found that some old lots of Remington factory ammo would not even fire in it. ( new lots have a more substantial shoulder) The long chamber was confirmed with a Stoney Point headspace gauge. In my rifle, measurements comparing current production, factory new, Remington & Federal cases before and after firing are showing 0.008" difference. The old Remington loads showed 0.015" headspace - far too much.
I have not had any case separations, but I have been advised by more experienced reloaders to stop using factory loads and to fire-form cases for that rifle. I have not yet used this method, but suggest that you can build "case forming" loads of a few grains of fast shotgun powder topped off with cream of wheat ( no bullet) in order to expand a factory new case before loading it with full power loads. The cream of wheat pushes the shoulder forward and from then on, just watch your die adjustment.

The case failed on the second reload (two resizings).
With an oiled case (or a dry one) the primer pushes the case forward. The pressure hohds the case forward until 40 kpsi or such. The forward part of the case stays stuck and the base comes back from the stretch mark reseating the primer in the case of headspace. With an oiled case the base comes back at once and the case expands forward avoiding the stretch mark.
Once the case comes back it outs the same force on the breech
face oiled or dry.
Good luck!

Thanks for the responses , I was working loads for a moose hunt when this happened and I had to abandon using my own reloads. Federal vital shoks with 225 grain bear claws fire and do not separate ... staying with my experience with "virgin" brass .. but using the nickel plated brass that federal provides I can see a line in the brass basically where my 2nd fire reloads separate ... much easier to notice with the nickel brass .

This rifle is not a ackley improved "yet " .... I may have the smithy improve it when he repairs this chamber .... standard for an Ackley chamber is to shorten a thread and ream .. think it would fix the issue .

The rifle is still a shooter ... I shot an 854# ... 53 1/2 bull the last saturday of the maine season . The rifle and chambering is fantastic but I need to be shooting my own loads , although the federals and bearclaws did a fantastic job .

By the way 13579 ... if I measured the factory loads using a pistol case unfired and then fired what increase would be considered excessive ?

"pistol case unfired and then fired what increase would be considered excessive ?"

Not sure if you mean a fired or unfired pistol case.Use either a fired or new pistol case, making sure that the case mouth is not out of round or dented.

If you are talking about a fired or unfired .35 Whelen case, I would think that anything greater that the dimensions of a no-go gage or field gage would be excessive.

I am not sure what these dimensions are. Someone on the forum might have that information available, but I think it is about the same as a .30-06 or .270.

Using the fired (or empty) pistol case will not necessarily give you the head space of the .35, because the pistol case mouth will not necessarily be placed on the datum line. All it will give you is a comparison between the fired and unfired .35 Whelen case, to determine how much it stretched, if any.

The actual headspace would be the measurement from the base of the cartridge to the datum line on the shoulder. With the pistol case over the neck and thouching the shoulder, your measurement would be the distance from the base of the .35 case to the base of the pistol case, and not the actual headspace. If this distance is greater with the fired case, then you know the case stretched.

All of the suggestions I made are guesses, because I have not fired or examined the rifle or the fired and unfired cases. From your description of the problem, it seems logical that the case is stretching, and too much, but there could be other reasons that I am not aware of.

One reader is insistant that you oil a case. I wouldn't do that. The case is apparently stretching enough to cause it to seperate, and oiling it, although it won't let it stretch any larger than the chamber dimensions,(hopefully) it will put more thrust on the bolt locking system.

You lube a case to resize it, causing it to go into the die easier and without sticking. It seems logical that the same thing could happen when firing a lubed case. Are you familiar with how a Morse taper works on a lathe or milling machine chuck? The taper holds the tool and prevents it from turning. Lubing the Morse taper prevents it from holding as well. Also it has to be tapered for it to work.

The .35 Whelen case is tapered, so lube would allow the case to stretch both forward and backward. The same situation would not apply as much with a straight walled case.

There is also something known as radial stress. I vagely understand it, and I do not know how to calculate it. It means that the case is also putting pressure against the inside walls of the chamber in the barrel. Seems logical that lubing the case would put greater stress on the inside of the chamber. Enough of this could rupture the chamber.

A contributer above states that some of his cases stretched as much as 0.015." Again, I don't know the dimensional difference between a go and no-go gage or a field gage, but it seems to me that 0.015 is a lot.

.015 is way to much stretching on the length of a fired whelen case. If it is stretching .003 in length (base to shoulder) it is max. Using a fired pistol case doesn't take into account expansion of the shoulder area or slight change in angle. The difference in safe and unsafe (go and no-go gages) for the '06 family of cartridges is only a few .001's. That gun needs to go back to a smith with guages. A custom rifle should have a minimum headspace chamber or real close and expansion at the base of the case body in front of the solid head of .003 or less for a standard cartridge. I wouldn't bother with the Ackley on this one as the whelen's virtues don't involve velocity. Most guys aren't happy with the small gain in fps in the AI so they hotrod the bugger. I have also seen gunsmiths cut .338-06 and.35 whelen chambers with a 30-06 reamer with a removeable pilot. They then have to ream a neck and throat for the correct cartridge. This can be done with one reamer or two seperate reamers. This process is OK if done correctly but I have seen them screwed up enough to prefer a SAAMI reamer for SAAMI cartridges. The whelen has a long throat to accomodate the heavy bullets and a rifle with a short throat could cause trouble with book loads, especially Nosler data. Please don't oil any cases and get your rifle to a good smith with '06 gauges, they are the same for the whelen. Good luck,Todd

I think Brownells sells headspace gauges. Get a "go" and a "no go"
If the bolt falls on the "no go" you have a headspace problem. Your gunsmith should also have these since he has to use them when he reams your chamber.

As a gunsmith, I use them on every weapon I work on as part of my safety check of the firearm when it comes in for work.

If you want to check the headspace add layers of "scotch" tape
to thecase head until you just feel the case touch. With a new
or resized case that will be the headspace with that brass in that chamber. Scotch tape runs around 0.002 in but measure yours.
Good luck!
ps.Headspace is the distance between the breech face and the case head like the name says.

Maine,I had EXACTLY the same problem with my Dad's 700 Classic 35 Whelen. He's owned the rifle since it was new, and I know it's had less than probably 200 rounds through it. A couple of years ago, he brought it over to the house so I could test some loads. I fire it and get a face/eye full of gas!! Open the bolt and the primer is blown and the bottom of the case is black!! "Geez Dad...did you check your loads?!?!?" Next I fire one of my loads through it which I KNOW is below max and safe. BOOM! Same thing. "Ta hell with it." I'm not shooting that POS again. I've been handloading for nigh on 30 years and was totally perplexed. Having plenty of elk rifles between the two of us, I just put the rifle aside.

Well, this year, I wanted Dad to have a lighter rifle both as a back-up and to lug around the mountains (he's 74). So, I drag the Whelen back out. I size and trim some brand new brass, lube the cases and load them with a moderate load and one of my 280 gr. cast bullets. I barely seated the bullets in the cases so that when I chambered a round, the bullet would jam into the rifling thus holding the case firmly against the bolt face. I fired a dozen rounds with no problems.
Then began working up loads with a 250 gr. Speer after neck sizing only the cases. Again, the rifle shot great with no problems. I stopped when the velocity reached 2519 fps for no other reason that I figured that'd be plenty for any elk in the world. (Turns out I was right! ;))
The rifle grouped this bullet very well and the proboem is solved! My guess is that our dies were slightly setting the shoulder back. My suggestion to you is to get some new brass and follow my method. Really, it isn't my method, but a method suggested to me by a local gunsmith for fire-forming 257 Ackley Imp. brass.
Good luck and let us know how it works out1
35WN

Without pictures, I suspect your 1st firings show a ring at or near the said case seperation?

I have a 35 wheelen 700 rem I restocked in a bell and carlson, shoots nice big ragged groups. I love huge slugs...lol

I have had to do this same trick on several factory guns when it looks like a deeper chamber is encountered. I will make, if I can't buy, a oversized button so it enlarges the neck to make a new "shoulder" and back off the size die so when the neck is sized for the correct bullet diameter it leaves some "neck" left. Slowly work the brass into the die until the empty brass closes firmly in the gun, then load a midrange load and fireform the brass. I actually just use that brass for workup loads vs fireform like we used to do on my 243 Ackley.

This method has eliminated the ring associated with long chambers for me. I usually take one piece of brass once I get a load developed, reload it until I can feel or see the case is stretching ( paper clip drug on the inside of the brass to feel stretch lines) and thus verify my brass and load is good for long term use.

Hope this makes sense,

Allen

Actually, if you have a rifle with excessive headspace and you hand load, you can fireform the brass to fit the too long chamber without having to worry about setting the barrel back and re-chambering.

Am I correct in assuming this?