Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters gas handling Kimber 84

I am curious if anyone can tell me how the Kimber 84 rates in the event of a case failure with regard to gas handling? Though I always wear polycarbonate glasses when I shoot, I would like to know, and haven't seen anything about this in any articles on the Kimber. I would really appreciate it if Mule Deer would lend his knowledge here.

Here ya' go.....I wouldn't stress about it.

http://revver.com/video/998465/kimber-montana-8400-rifle-torture-test/

Thanks for the link....interesting video.

The big problem with any bolt action is usually escaped gas going down the left raceway (on a right-handed action), directly into the shooter's face. There are generally ports in the front receiver ring to allow some gas to escape toward the side, and on the underside of the bolt to allow gas to escape into the magazine. The Kimber 84 has the standard receiver-ring port on the right side, and two ports in the bolt. There is also a little flange on the left side of the bolt shroud, but it is inside the rear receiver ring, not outside as in the 98 Mauser.

My take, however, is that with today's brass and ammo, escaping gas is incredibly rare, unless we are truly careless in handloading. Also, if this were really an issue almost nobody would ever fire a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester.

Mule Deer---Thanks for the input. I was not too worried, but was curious. Most bolt action reviews talk about the gas handling features of the rifle, but what I've read on the Kimber (not an exhaustive literature review) hadn't mentioned that. I'm glad to hear the flange is present.

I still have a great deal of steel in my right thumb from a total blow-up with a Kimber of Oregon Model 84. Shrapnel bothers me a lot these days.

Steve

Dogzapper, what happened there? Gun failure or bad ammo, or both? I hope you weren't injured any other way.

Are the Kimbers 84's of NY different from the Kimber 84's of Oregon in safety?

From this picture, which is supposed to be a Kimber 84 of Oregon, they don't look the same.

Stupid engineering staff and no gunsmith in the entire plant.

The rifle was the first prototype 6PPC and the chamber was cut with a reamer that required a turned neck. I was sent to the range with a hundred rounds of factory Sako ammo and asked to bring back 20 five-shot groups.

As we all know, the case neck requires some clearance, in order to release the bullet. There was none.

The rifle blew up on the first round.

The receiver split in two, lengthwise. The barrel flew about twenty yards downrange. Some gas was diverted straight down from the hole in the lower locking lug recess, but when it hit the laminated stock, it split ... opened ... and closed on my left hand. The bolt shroud shattered and I have lots of it in my right thumb. With the receiver splitting, the scope mounts failed and the scope flew over my right shoulder.

My face was totally blooded by the tattooing of a thousand small pieces of steel and brass. The pad at the base of my right thumb had a three-inch deep cut. The end of my right thumb looked like a bloody stubbed-out cigar.

My glasses were like sand-blasted, but they saved me from being blinded.

The Lord basically saved me from total idiots like Greg Warne and his band of morons. I was badly hurt and bloodied, but I finally saw the light. I stopped helping them a few weeks later.

The company eventually failed. Greg ended up with a .45 bullet in his brain in the Costa Rica rain forest.

Steve

I had my own encounter with the lack of gun-making know-how with the original Kimbers some years later. I restocked an original 84 in .223 for a guy, who the next year traded it to me for another stock job.

For the first couple of years I shot it only on hot-weather prairie dogs shoots, but then early one spring I went out and the rifle wouldn't go bang, due a VERY sluggish firing pin fall. I took the bolt apart and found it FULL of axle grease. I mentioned this to Steve Dogzapper, and he explained that one of the older guys who worked there had a theory that bolts should be greased inside, so that's what he did: pumped them full. And that's the way many original 84's came, right from the factory.

Of course I removed all the grease and the rifle worked even better....

Literally ALL Kimber of Oregon recoil lugs were "glass bedded." Jim McKinley and the crew used 5-minute epoxy, for pity's sake.

The reason? It was faster and easier.

THAT is a fact!!!!

Steve

Yup, Johnny, you are totally right.

I about friggin' crapped when I saw the automotive grease pump come out in the assembly area. No gunsmiths, no guidance and no technical leadership results in some really strange things.

After damned near blowing my azz up, I decided not to put my face behind them. Not in experimental ones, anyway.

Steve

PS. The earlier 22s, Model 82s, were chambered with a reamer that was chucked up in a quarter-inch electric drill. First, the barrel was clamped hard in a vise and then the assembler drilled away. If you look at the fired cases, lots of chambers have flat sides ... caused by tightening the vise too much.

Idiots.

Amazing! And yet, among some "aficionados" those original Kimbers are known as such top-grade firearms....

Okay, you guys - PLEASE tell me they got it mostly right by the time they started making left handers!

I have a Model 82 .22 and a Model 84 .223 with matching 3 digit serial numbers LH13X. The .22 retired all other .22's I owned as it is the most accurate rimfire I ever owned. I won a lot of .22 silhouette matches with it.

The .223 is really accurate as well, an honest 3/4" five shot grouper, but it will only hold 4 in the magazine. Put 5 in and the 5th one pops out when you work the bolt. The bolt is getting hard to open and close but I figured it's probably because I haven't cleaned it since I got the rifle in 1983 or so. (cleaned the bore, just not the bolt except to wipe it off)

How do you disassemble the bolt? There is a small allen screw on the striker but I'm afraid to unscrew it as tiny pieces will inevitably fly out into the 4th dimension.

My friend, some fabulous wood went through the shop. Both the wood and the metal finish were world-class. Everything that showed received the utmost attention.

Under the stock and things like the quality of barrels ... well, that was a different matter.

Greg told me once, "Steve, it doesn't make any difference. Most of the Kimber rifles are admired, lusted over and put in a safe. The majority are never shot. And what's the difference if a guy returns a rifle that shoots like schit? We'll just screw on another $6.00 barrel and we'll ship it back to him."

Jeez.

Trust me, anytime I got a Kimber, I bedded it correctly and I shot it before I took possession of it. One out of five rifles shot like a demon ... three out of five rifles shot OK ... one out of five rifles shot like crap. That's what 5-minute epoxy, green wood and a $6.00 barrel buys you, no matter how friggin' pretty it is.

Steve

Yeah, I had some encounteres with the wood and bedding too. That .223 was restocked because the original wood split as it dried. I also once restocked a .22 rimfire 82 and got to examine the "bedding" first-hand. (This was for a certain well-known gun writer that we both are well acquainted with.) I told him that with the new stock it would shoot better because it would be bedded correctly--and it did.

The wood mostly came from Cal'ico and George Petersen.

Remember the flood of Kimber BGR rifles that were for sale on the cheap? Greg hadn't paid his Cal'ico Wood bill for quite a while, so one day the BIG Cal'ico truck shows up at the front door ... along with several BIG, serious looking guys. The wood bill was paid in Kimber BGR rifles. Lots of freakin' BGR rifles.

It was a little hard for Greg to sell BGRs for a while because Cal'ico and associates were selling them to the public for 20% less than a Kimber Master Distributor could buy them for.

Steve

Aha! I wondered about that. Also wondered why the BGR disappeared so quickly after all the hype.

That's the truth.

Steve, not that any of this is inherently funny but the way you tell it.........

By the way, very seriously, I'm glad that pipe bomb they sent you didn't do more damage. Good grief!

And to think I had a little, early Kimber M84 in .17 Remington (I did glass bed it) that shot very well. It was a great little fox getter.

Best,
George

OK, this is the story I want to hear...

Me too. If I had to guess though, it sounds like somebody got messed up with the wrong folks and money was probably involved...

Quite a thread, now I'd be interested in hearing about current production rifles.

Seems the reviews are favorable, in fact the Kimber in .257 Roberts was billed as being "right" for the first time in a factory production rifle.

I've a .260 84M that I bought BARELY used. The fellow I got it from didn't like the caliber, and found a 7-08. Wanted to sell the .260. It's been a great rifle. It shoots as well as I can at 100 meters, does just as well out to 300 meters (about 1.25" at 100, 4" at 300). It doesn't change point of impact, and shoots 95 gr, 100 gr, 120 gr, and 140 grain to very close to the same point of impact. If I sight in my 95 grain vmax load 1.5" high at 100 m, my 120 gr hot cor deer load hits 2.2" high. I've put about 1000 rounds through it so far and am very satisfied. I have a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8 on it, and while I'd like more power for paper and prairie dogs, it really fits the rifle well.

dogzapper: No mention in the obit of a gunshot wound to the head. Dead is dead but was it from the reported heart attack or a .45ACP induced heart attack?

As far as gas handling is concerned, there are essentially two types of bolt actions which I classify a venters and sealers.
The Mauser 98, the Wichester M70, the Ruger 77 and the Kimbers are venters. The Remington 700, the Savage 110, the Weatherby MkV are sealers.
Sealers seal the gas in the receiver ring and barrel in the event of a case failure and thus protect the shooter. Since gas that escapes into the bolt (through the firing pin hole) cannot be contained it is vented. Ideally this venting is into the magazine well but for some strange reason, the engineers often choose to vent into the left locking lug race way. I think this is stupid, by the way (Surprisingly few people care what I think!). Most of the sealers do a fairly good job of blocking the left raceway with a flanged bolt sleeve. Sako blocks it with the root of the bolt handle (excellent). The MKV Weatherby doesn't have a raceway, of course, and vents gas from inside the bolt out the loading port via three holes in the bolt body.
The Mauser 98 is a venter. In the event of a case failure, the extractor is sacrificed and will usually not be seen again. Gas is hindered from entering the locking lug raceway from the bolt face by the c-ring. Gas which enters the bolt, however, is vented directly into the left locking lug raceway. This gas is vented out via the "thumb notch". In addition, the shooter is protected by the flanged bolt sleeve and, to a certain extent, the bolt stop.
The Model 70 is the "venter from Hell". All escaping gas is directed into the left raceway and thence into the shooter's face. Ouch.
The Ruger M77 is a very well thought out venter. Especially in the original push-feed model. The enclosed boltface hindered gas from entering the raceway from the boltface so it exited the loading port. As with the Mauser, the extractor went with it. What gas did enter the left raceway was vented out a notch halfway back while the shooter was protected by the flanged bolt sleeve. Gas entering the firing pin hole was vented into the magazine well through a plethora of vent holes in the bolt body. Blow up a Ruger and a lot of parts were going on a trip but the shooter was likely to be unharmed.
I haven't looked closely enough at a Kimber to really critique their gas handling ability. The breeching system is Arisaka-like which should be good. They are a venter but just how well done I can't honestly say. Those I have worked on had other issues which kept my attention.
I think the Remington 700 is the best "sealer" ever. The push feed Ruger 77 the best venter. I'm not a real expert though and some of those who are may have other ideas. GD

greydog, Your analysis of the gas-handling properties of the Model 70 may well be true, if you are referring to the pre-64 Model 70. However, as you are well aware, there are several different varieties of Model 70's.

The CRF Classic action incorporates a gas block opposite the extractor, to block the left raceway. Furthermore, late model Classics in addition, have a flange on the left side of the bolt shroud, which if any gas should get by the gas block, will be diverted away from the shooters face. Any gas entering the the bolt body through the firing pin hole is vented down into the magazine through two holes.

As far as the push feed and/or controlled round push feed Model 70 actions, I don't believe these would be "venters from hell" either, but I don't have any of these actions myself to ponder upon, so I won't comment further on those.

There is no real significant difference in gas handling ability between the pre-64's and the classics. The little gas block is one feature which is of some benefit although mostly as a means to prvent battery of the left locking lug when operating the action during rapid fire exercise. I do like the gas block, however, and retrofit it to my Pre-64 actions. In the event of a serious failure, I think that block will be blown out of the collar but will still be stopped by the bolt stop or the bolt sleeve and does at least slow down gas escape.
As if to counterbalance the effectiveness of the gas block, Winchester eliminated the notch at the top of the raceway (this notch was actually there to provide clearance for the bolt guide but served double duty as a vent just as it does on the Ruger). The flange on the bolt sleeve only partially blocks the raceway and the retaining pin for the bolt sleeve lock is just waiting to be blow back into the shooter's face (the gas block should help to prevent this). There is no noticable difference between the bolt sleeve on a modern classic action and a 1950's action.The bolt does vent into the mag well which is, indeed, a positive feature.
The push feed M70's are a sealer but not a great one. They also vent gas from a pierced primer directly into the left raceway and into the shooters face. The controlled/push feed models appear to have the worst of both worlds. Open bolt face directing gas into the race way, no gas block. Savage also makes a similar CRF system but their's utilizes a very good gas block system. The savage 110 rivals the Remington 700 as an effective sealer. In some respects it's even better.
Gas handling ability (or not) is something we all hope to never test on any action but stuff happens. If I was really concerned about it, I wouldn't shoot my pre-64's at all just as Mule Deer said. I have had my face peppered by a pierced primer in a push feed M70 but haven't had any mishaps to date in the pre-64's (knock wood). GD

Had a pierced primer while using a Ruger M77 MarkII and got a face full of hot gas but no injuries so I guess their system works pretty good. If I remember right the magazine had quite a bit of crud in it.

o03, What other damage to the rifle? Did you send it back, or what?

Not in my experience. My .22 Hornet consistently failed to feed.

Given the fact that Greg promised me a LH .505 Gibbs, the stories here make me feel better that he never delivered. Imagine popping one of those off and having it break up.

Anjin I think you got lucky from the sound of things.

I avoided the Kimber BGR like the plague. Too many bad reports and that was in the days when there was no Internet.

I've never owned a Kimber, and now I'm glad that I didn't.

Today's Kimber vs. the originals discussed above are two entirely different beasts.

I've witnessed two gas handling "demonstrations". the first, at a public range, involved a Pattern 14 chambered in 8X57, allegedly by the British military for testing German ammunition (sounds a little suspect to me, but the owner believed it enough to have paid $1100 for it). I was several benches to the right. Upon firing, I felt something hit my arm, and the report was somewhat different than the previous ones. I looked over to the left, and the shooter was sitting there looking somewhat stunned. I could tell that the rifle was damaged and asked if he was okay. He was, but when I walked over, his face was freckled with little spots of blood. The rifle wasn't. The stock had bulged and split over the magazine box. The floorplate was bent into a shallow "V". The extractor had been, as greydog said, sacrificed, and was nowhere to be seen, except for the piece that had hit me, which I found on the bench. The owner's explanation for the incident, related to me some months later, was that he had mixed up his ammo and had probably fired a .308 in the 8mm.

The second incident involved a pre-64 M70 ".30.06" in the 50K ser. no. range that my son purchased from the Gander Mountain store he worked at. The first round he fired ruptured the case body, bent the floorplate slightly, and pivoted the extractor away from the bolt. My son was okay, aside from one spot of blood on his nose and a few powder grains embedded in his face. Apparently, the rifle had been re-chambered to one of the short .30 belted magnums, like .308 Norma, and not marked. One of my son's tasks at Gander was to test-fire used guns into a snail back in the gunsmith's shop. He had been so eager to snatch up the M70 that he skipped the test, so he performed the test at the range, wearing only eye and ear protection instead of the full-face mask, apron, and muffs he wore at work. The store took the rifle back and sent it off to their main shop, after the in-store gunsmith re-installed the extractor and straightened the floorplate. They also, not too long afterward, stopped the test-firing of used guns! Go figure.

The 505 Gibbs is a low pressure round .They are loaded to about.39,000 PSI.It would not have been a problem.

Regarding the original Kimber of Oregon, based in Clackamas, OR, Greg Warne had a great story about making state-of-the-art modern bolt action rifles on CNC machinery, so that a simple flip of the design could make left hand actions. That, with superior wood blanks, though mostly claro walnut, attracted many of us.

I had never heard many of the issues raised on this thread, but it quickly became apparent back then that product was not coming off the line as quickly as promised.

As noted, the firm quickly went bankrupt and the New Yorker who bought the assets and name moved operations to Yonkers, NY.

From what I see (mostly in his extensive advertising campaigns in the gun mags) both Kimber pistols and rifles sell pretty well today. For some of us, though, the bad taste in out mouths still has not disappeared.

Further to the gas handling demonstrations. Back when I used to drink, I "forgot" that my .223 M700 was chambered with a tight neck. The starting loads were not a problem, but as they neared max., I had a complete case head separation. Did not notice any difference at all, except working the bolt only ejected a case head. Used a brass brush to remove the case body. Neither the rifle nor I suffered any ill effects, and, once I adjusted my reloading procedure, that rifle shot 5 shots into the .3's. Should have kept that one.

I've had two instances with ruptured cases and luckily didn't even know it had happened until extraction. The 1st was in a 700 7RM. I'd found an old box of 150 CLs and decided to use them as foulers after cleaning the bbl. The first shot had pretty stout recoil and I had to do a double take at the chrony as it read 3250. Upon extraction just the case head came out. Aparently the venting system worked quite well. The second was with a TC Encore. Same as with the 700, I never knew anything happened until extraction.

Sometimes I think we are just lucky. I used to think a guy was safer with this action or that until last year when I saw what happens if gas escapes a Rem 700....you can get peppered pretty well and it was a good thing the guy was wearing shooting glasses.

Three rings of steel or not that gas and debris will find an opening if luck is not with you.

I had a case rupture while shooting a Kimber 7-08 Montana. I was shooting Winchester factory 140 grain ammo and the case split about 3/4 of the way back. The crack in the case was about 1/4". I got a face full of hot gas and powder. I'm very glad I was wearing eye protection.