Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters recoil realism rant

I didn't want to hijack the thread about the fellow that was choosing between the 257 Weatherby and the 300 Magnum for elk, but the was the catalyst for these opinions and thoughts.
A special thanks to Dogzapper for his real life comments on recoil, and to JB for butressing those thoughts.
Whenever any posts a question here about rifle selection, ie " Which should I get for ground squirrels- a 22 or a 22 Magnum", at least three people will chime in with something like "I'd get a 5 pound 378 Ackley Improved- I have 6 of them, and the recoil doesn't bother me".
First of all, let me state that there ARE some people that can handle the recoil of the magnums. I suspect it is somewhere around 3% of the shooting population, and about 10% of the people that own them. I have seen Dober shoot and know he can shoot them, I am quite sure Brad can handle a 338 as I know what he has killed with it,I would bet that BobinNH, Mule Deer and a few others can shoot them. They are the exception. Very very few people will shoot as much as they do. If you don't believe that, go to the range, and see how many hunters even practice in the off season, and of that small number, how many practice at anything over 100 yards. The guys at the 300 yard range are few and far between, and its usually the same ones week after week.
Working the local shooting range on sight in day was very similar to the experience Dogzapper described; If someone showed up with a rifle with a belted case, odds were you were in for a struggle. Not always, but most of the time.
One of the biggest fallacies in shooting is put forth by those that say " You never feel recoil when you shoot at game, so it doesn't matter if a rifle kicks a lot". That is a fallacy because the flinch starts BEFORE the recoil occurs, as a conditioned response by the body to previously inflicted pain.
Dogzapper brought up another point that is often overlooked in discussions about recoil, and that it's easier to control flinching at the bench than it is in the field shooting at game. True, recoil is felt more at the bench, but it is much easier controlled there.
A flinch is a learned habit, and for the body to not flinch, the mind has to make a conscious controlled effort to override the habitual behavior. When there is a 6 point elk getting ready to walk into the timber, you are half frozen, the scope is dancing all over the elks rib cage, it's kind of hard to make a conscious controlled effort to overcome a habit.
The other stock response to these threads in regards to magnums is the one that goes " Well, last year I shot an elk at a lasered 487 yards with my 478 Viagraized Magnum, and I was dam glad that I had a magnum, Because it was DRT."
Well, that doesn't mean that was the ONLY cartridge that would have killed the elk. If you don't believe that, ask Dogzapper to relate his guiding experiences one more time, or JB, ot Phil Shoemaker, or the authors of the study regarding moose kills in Europe. CALIBER DOESN'T MATTER MUCH, WITHIN REASON!!!
Rant over

Royce

GOOD read. Never will understand why people won't be honest with themselves concerning their recoil tolerance,especially since we're dealing with physical pain. After all,the hunting experience is suppose to be enjoyable.

til later

Here's how I deal with flinch.

On the bench when shooting my magnum I wear a Past recoil pad and very good hearing protection. It's not just recoil that makes you jump when the gun goes off. In fact archers even get "target panic" and there isn't a lot of recoil from a bow.

That deals with the sound and felt recoil on the bench.

To practice shooting you don't need to shoot your main hunting rifle. The skills are the same no matter which rifle you shoot. So in order to 1)save money on poweder and bullets 2)not burn up the tube on my high dollar custom hunting rifle and 3)not have to worry about the recoil I practice with my .22-250

After many many rounds the good skills you need become more of a habit than a fluke and you're shooting improves and you don't train yourself to flinch at the shot like you would if you hammered your shoulder and ears burning up the barrel on your hunting rig all year.

I've effectively trained myself not to flinch over a few years. It works so well that when I went to work up a new load with a new 405 grain bullet in my .54 cal muzzleloader and forgot my recoil pad I didn't flinch then either...even though that steel buttplate was chewing me up pretty badly.

My wife used the same system I did even though she shot a .30-06 Ackley. One day she did take the magnum along with her 06 to the range for sight in day. She had no problem making a cloverleaf under an inch with her first three rounds so she put the gun away, did the same with the 06 and went home.

Recoil just isn't the monster some make it out to be if you learn to work with it or around it.

Your mention of sight-in day has me thinking of how many times I've heard "I shoot better on game than on paper" and other rationalizations for a paper plate sized three shot group from the 100 yard line.

Saturday a friendly fellow asked me what I was shooting on the 300 yard line. I told him it was a 308. "Isn't that kind of stretching it?" I just said nah, not really and left it at that.

I will tell you that your theory is in no place more relevant than here....Alaska. New folks move to Alaska every year and because we have a variety of large and dangerous critters folks always ask, what gun should I buy. And I laugh my azz off listenng to the guys that immediately chime in with you need a 338 Win mag or you need a 375 H&H, or a 300 RUM. Its a trip, and when you go to the range up here you see first hand that soo many Alaskan hunters are not capable of shooting their go to rifles worth a chit! But these bozos are out and about year in and year out chasing stuff and sometimes killing stuff, so it is what it is. I was out Caribou hunting a few weeks ago and I was floored by how poorly so many hunters shoot. I cant count how many guys I saw shooting and Caribou not going down, its really pretty pathetic. These are the same guys that will bitch and complain about not having been successful on hunts. The other thing that I believe relates to this issue is that soo many guys go to the range and only shoot off the bench. You dont see them practising from real world hunting positions and since there ant no benches in the field they find out the hard way that they cant shoot in the field.

fwiw & imho,
I would concur that dogzapper comes up with alot of points that are worthy of serious thought...

Further I would concur that recoil DOES make a difference in your ability to hit. That said I have an inability to judge recoil until it truly hurts and I think the best/worst place to develop a flinch is on the bench. It magnifies recoil in a fashion that is difficult to overcome. An example. My first M70 in .375 H&H Magnum was made into a flame throwing shoulder pounding beast by those who had come no closer to shooting one than the Winchester Game Chart at the local gun store. My decision to buy the rifle was largely affected by Peter Capstick and other writers who referred to the old six bits as a good rifle for those that could not take retina seperating recoil of the super heavies... When I shoot from a standing position against a rest, hood, etc I can generally shoot up to the gun or close thereof... Largely because I am completely without fear of the rifle and chambering...

That said A TON of recoil perception, imho, is stock design. I have shot many, many Pre-64 70 Winchester Featherweights in .30-06' that made my M70 .375 H&H shooting 300 grain Partitions seem "gentle" in comparison. Old stock design with a ton of drop at comb are to blame for many, many folks with a flinch. That said I have found some rifles that I found to recoil uncomfortably off the bench. A then new Remington Model 7 in .260 Remington comes to mind... That said I generally cannot tell the difference between a .257 Roberts with a hot load and 100 grain BT from a .308 Winchester shooting an equally "hot" 175 Sierra Match King(2751 fps via Oehler 35P from 20" LTR barrel). I came to subscribe to the late, and great, Jeff Cooper's THE CALIBER GAME in TO RIDE, SHOOT STRAIGHT, AND SPEAK THE TRUTH. The rifle recoils, you loose sight picture, notice a bump on the shoulder and you get back on the scope. There have been poorly designed rifles/stocks that will test this view, however, I have found it 98% encompassing...fwiw

Regards, Matt.

Having worked quite a few sight in days myself, that is "the" famous phrase that makes me glad I'm not hunting with that person.

Rob

I hunted with an ex-USMC marksmanship instructor one season. He and his partner shot at least once a week year round and could regular chew the center out of a target. He encountered a big 5x5 bull elk in the timber. He missed the first shot, a gimme at 50 yards. That got the bull moving at a trot and he missed two other shots as well, the last being a 100 yard Texas heart shot.

That bull went another hundred yards, entered a clearcut, and was put on the ground by another hunter.

I've heard that paper versus game statement a few times but my experience is that it's usually reversed in reality.

I have no problem saying recoil bothers me. Even my little ole 7x57 isn't fun for me the on the bench, but it's tolerable. A 30'06 is miserable for me on the bench. I'll play with a 22lr before, during and after the centerfire rifles just to keep from flinching. Haven't missed a deer yet.

I personally think anyone who says recoil doesn't bother them is stretching the truth somewhat. Some guys deal with it better than others. I have yet to see anyone who shoots a magnum better from field positions, than a a nice little deer rifle in 243,257,260, etc etc as long as both rifles have about the same accuracy potential. I know it's true for me and all my friends, but I'll probably catch flak from someone regardless.

Hey P8,
I thought everyone in TX hunted with a .25-06?
I didn't mean to imply in my OP that no shooters will admit to their recoil limits although I'll say that more than most of those who use my range won't. Darn shame.

til later

I haven't come across many with a 25 in any flavor. I'd be suited just fine with a 250-3000. No Sir, I see more maggies than anything. The 30-06, 7m and 300m are pretty popular for our little, but very "bullet resistant" deer. We have our fair share of flinchers too. I've done a few trailings for those guys. Stomach rumen is a piss poor thing to trail. We have our share of good shooters too, and I imagine we are pretty representative of the rest of the shooting world.

+1

Benches are for sight in and bragging about group size. Do 50 pushups and see how well you shoot off your butt/knees/or so.

Hemi

Recoil sucks....

Based on the average girth I see at the local range, I doubt 1 in 50 could do 50 pushups, much less manage to squeeze a trigger afterwards.

Fred,

On occasion you have accused me of attempting to insert common sense into Internet debates.

Now you've gone and done the same thing .

You don't suppose it could be contagious, do you? Think we could infect some more folks ? Me neither...

You are, of course, utterly correct. I used to be one of those rookie guides that Dogzapper mentioned...and now I know why I got some of the clients I did... . Some of them could hit a deer's behind with their loudenboomerkickenharder rifles, though...unfortunately.

Dennis

I believe a flinch is a natural reaction to first noise and then pain, and you have to work to control it by using noise protection, and any other devices as mentioned above to control the pain from the forces of recoil. Even a good trigger can help as "leaning" on a heavy trigger increases the anticipation of the coming event. Noise is significant..for example, a few years back I was putting away some groceries and my cat was feeding at her bowl. I happened to drop a liter bottle of Coke, and when it hit the floor and explowded, the cat must have jumped 2 feet off the floor with food flying out of her mouth!..I felt sorry for the cat, but it was really pretty funny. Now if she had hit her head on the edge of the counter on the way up, it might be something like shooting a rifle!..So when I bench, I use molded ear plugs, and head gear over that, a good recoil pad, and a Past shield. If you want to know how bad your flinch is, play the loaded-unloaded game. Have a friend either load or not load your rifle, and then you "shoot" it. You'll find out right away how bad your flinch is. If you fall back, and you very well might, go back to the game. Well FWIW, that's what I do.

I've noticed the same thing as AKCub not only here, but wherever I've shot at a public range. Moreso here, though. Paper plate size groups, shot by some young guy with a 338 and a 4x12x50 scope.

Saturday at the range there was a guy with a 300 RUM, funky add-on muzzle brake, and a 5.5-16xWhatever older series Nikon Monarch scope. At the 100 yard line he banged out a three shot, 4" group centered roughly about 3" high and 3" right of center.

He was with the guy who asked me if shooting a 308 at 300 yards was stretching things.

I'll admit things may have gotten better. I left before they did.

I shoot the 300 Wby almost weekly during the off season. I love the 2 rifles I have chambered for it and love the cartridge. 300s ain't for most people. My Mark V is a solid .75" rifle with Weatherby factory loads. On two occasions I have let friends shoot it, neither broke 4" with it. I have seen plenty of bad shooting with magnums, most guys would be better served with a 270/280 or less. People do not understand the time, practice, and loading involved to be able to shoot magnum rifles well. It's just like a traditional bow involving work and good practice, most people aren't willing to put in the effort.