Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Fixed 4x's --- Leupold vs Schmidt Bender Vs. Zeiss

I have said it, and JB and others have as well, but sometimes guys try to get an optic with ALL the bells and whistles only to find it may have been COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

Matching the optic to the application is key IMHO. Case in point.

My bro was in KS this year, watching bucks running does all day. NICE buck presents, running, estimates...GUESTIMATES range at 300 yds, has a 2-8x36 MR/T w/M2 knobs, zeroed at 100, so knowing what the charts say the clicks should be, clicks up and takes a snap shot, did not hit well enough to recover the deer.

Nothing wrong with his scope, but he was 'OVER-ENGINEERED' for that specialty scope and had he simply had a plain 4x, no knobs, etc. etc., he likely would have just put the reticle high on the back, and had his deer. Just what I did at 250ish this year w/my 6x42 German #4, saw opportunity, got a decent rest and sight pic, and squeezed. Fixed scopes PREVENT me second guessing if I THINK I need to mess with something, in the critically short window of time we often get on game.

I did see an interesting photo in a hunting mag with a guy toting a Ruger 308, MkII, had what appeared to be a Leupy 4x33 with M1 knob(s) added. Custom bolt knob also.

I thought, for that deer hunter, picked a proven reliable rifle, solid shooters with a scope ring-integral system strong as nails, no frill get it done round ammo easy to find at Wal-Mart, and seeing the custom bolt knob, and custom shop modified Fx-II, I realized this guy just MIGHT have some wisdom/experience. He figured EVEN on long shots, he can get it done with 4x for his intended game, and knobs in the even of a longish shot,,,,,though I'd place a set up like that good to around 400 yds maybe a little further for many reasons.

Point is, my bro simply OVER THUNK this whole thing about complicating things, and it's a shame he spent 2-3x what he could have and have had a scope that likely would have modified his thought process during the shot cycle/opportunity.

I am going to have a talk with him, as first off, had he zeroed and shot his rifle in at 200 yds, he'd been good to go w/o worry, but he thought the little feature of M2 knobs was an answer to a problem that was not likely to happen in the field under MOST days out after deer.

Now if you were an urban sniper and wanted a rifle capable of shooting a precise shot at a smallish (let's say Grapefruit size) target, out to ranges further than most deer are taken, THEN he might have had the RIGHT scope on. A good scope perhaps, but wrong application.

Sure bet he bragged on it to his buddies how his decked out sniper scope was the cat's meow, ....until he had to admit to losing a nice buck.

Too many folks I strongly feel try solving problems that are not there, but as above, it's nice to buy the best, and be done, but one has to OBJECTIVELY determine what they NEED vs. what might be just 'cool looking' to carry into camp.

If I were a guide, as Atkinson, I'd be much happier to see someone show up in camp with a nicely used rifle in 30-06 w/4x or 6x Leupold, than a brand new WHIZZBANG mag with laser range finder built in scope, ready to shoot at half a mile!

The guys one here that USE and recommend K.I.S.S. for hunting scopes I have to respect, as they make good logical decisions on scope choices based on experience.

If money were no object, and weight of package, S&B and others might have more users, and I'll admit carrying an 8lb PRE-scoped 338/06 around the mountains years back, with a 1.5-6x42 4200 that had NICE optics, but the scope was heavy, looking back, that rifle should have had a mag sporter contour at best, and a simple 4x would have never been found wanting for my mulie/elk pursuit. That weight can/does add up if one is toting a rifle all day. I don't like flyweights, but no excess weight baggage desired on a carry rifle. Agreed there.

I wonder, why would a 'new' mfg. 4x be any less rugged than the M8s? Seems odd to me. What 'test controls' were used? Test results must be looked at, in how the 'study design' was done to determine validity. Sample size, etc. etc. as one must be careful to compare results of a small sample size.

A call to Leupold customer service would likely yield good info as they have a huge database to pool stats from and I am sure there are trends in some models perhaps holding up better.

Since my neighbor's car is white, and mine is grey, I presume his gets better mileage because of that. Because I am an idiot.

NO relationship, E. None. Try reading the above. Do you actually read anything posted here? The only relationship that exists is your imagination. You made it up just like I did the color of paint affecting mileage.

In the end, that's our problem here. It always is. You assume the fast focus will be a problem. You assume scopes you've never looked through won't give a sharper image. You assume the eyebox on scopes you've never looked through will be problematic. In fact, the one and only S&B you looked through, the PMII 4-16 on 6X, you DESCRIBED the eyebox as:

The high powered tactical scope was "Not Bad," and yet you assume their low powered hunting scope might be won't be good enough?

Try looking, E. Then commenting. Reports even viewed through your gold-ring framed/colored glasses of things you've actually looked at will be accepted here much more favorably than reports you write based upon what your imagination tells you.

Nahhhh....

He's fabricated so many things I'll never trust anything he says unless he's backed up by a credible source.

65BR: I suspect if your brother had been zeroed to kill the deer,instead of zeroed at 100 in accordance with conremporary "wisdom",the 300 yard buck would have presented no problem.The buck would likely be dead.Animals do not wait around for you to use clicks;rutting whitetails are in constant motion.

With a flat-shooting rifle, there should be no trajectory concerns at 300 yards.

I completely agree your brother was over-engineered for the task at hand.In hunting, the "KISS" principle prevails;frequently, the method that allows you to get into action QUICKLY is the one that will prove most successful.

Amen Brother Bob!!!!

Good point Bob.....could't agree more.

I know a guy who guides in Montana who this past fall had two guys show up for a mule deer hunt in the eastern part of the state. These guys were from Pennsylvania and had two tricked-out rifles in some .300 magnum wildcat, with the big knobbed scopes, laser rangfinders, tripods that fit on the sling swivel stud, AND a portable shooting bench that rode around in the pickup bed, waiting to be attached to a trailer hitch ball. They claimed to have killed deer out to 900 yards in hayfields in Pennsylvania with this gear, and the guide (who is also a gunsmith for a very well-known company) had no doubts they had done all they said.

The deer were in steep breaks, and the wind blew hard the whole time. Shots were quick and always under 250 yards, in the wind.
The clients were slow and had never shot in that much wind before. By the time they had learned that big mule deer bucks refuse to stand around (especially in wind) for range-finding, deploying tripods, and turret-twisting (much less attaching a bench to a hitch ball) they had shot up all 60 rounds of super-duper ammo they'd brought. Luckily, they hadn't hit anything.

They ended up getting their bucks with the guide's spare rifle, a Remington 721 .270 with a steel-tube K4 Weaver. They said they'd learned a lot and would be back next year with .270's--though they would mount bigger scopes, maybe even 3-9x's.

Interesting, JB.
I always enjoy reading this forum-there is much to learn in this sport of ours.

i've thought about a ruger 77 in 280 reington just to put a 4x leupold on it.

Bobin,

I failed to mention my Bro's gun is a Tikka 308 and he was using IIRC 168 amax this hunt....plenty gun, fairly flat, plenty flat rather for the 'guestimated' 300 yds, but found out after the shot, under 300 yds, but yes, you put it succinctly.

Thanks.

JB, as you know there is good reason hunters have kept those old K-4's on for all these years since mounted/mfg. They work. Granted newer ones have brighter optics, perhaps bolder reticles, esp. vs. the plain CH on some K4s, and you might worry about seals being good, yet they continue bringing home the venison.

I do have to say, many lesser experienced hunters have perhaps bought into either the Marketing by mfg. and/or the infomercials you read in articles raving about the 'theoretical' features and benefits of 'Hubble Scopes' and I am sure some writers feel compelled to write what the industry is promoting. Obviously higher mag variables are more expensive, they DO fill a need for certain situations, but when my bro told me about the story about what happened I can only imagine had he used a simple 4x or 6x zeroed at 200, he simply could have held high and had a better outcome on that buck he lost....shame as I hate seeing ANY animal, esp. a big game animal like a deer get away, much less run aways.

It WILL happen whether bullet 'failure' or shot placement issues (usually the problem) but I like to get DRTs when possible, knowing it's not always going to happen, but icing on the cake.

The day I dropped a hog around 240 yds, using a 6x on a #1 Ruger 243, RSI carbine, I believe it was my fastest shot cycle..SPOT game, aim rifle, and squeeze. Happened in seconds and the Barnes 85x did a DRT and that day taught me more about the value of K.I.S.S. and no wasted time to conclude shot cycle, once you get a good sight pic, which is not predicated upon how much the animal is 'zoomed' in. Once the sight pic is obtained w/a steady hold, one merely needs to break the trigger w/o pulling the shot, not worrying about minimizing increased wobbles in a high powered scope as if shooting a 1/2moa group at the range off a benchrest. That is not needed to hit vitals usually in my experience.

Sometimes the longer you hold and 'over think' what you are doing during the shot, the more the wobbles increase (often making shooters panic jerking the trigger at what looks good-and pulling the gun off the vital zone or entire animal before the bullet leaves the muzzle) and more chance the game will move or the opportunity will be lost entirely.

I am sorry to admit, this happened to me using a muzzle light model 7 260 on a Texas hunt at a walking buck around 150-200 yuds. HIGH winds throwing my gun around and having my scope on 14x (using a 4-14 that day). Broadside unalerted buck, but I was sitting in front of a Mesquite tree in camo in a chair and had NO rest, guess I could have tried getting behind the chair and using the top/back for a rest, but NEVER thought about it then. Missed the first shot clean as the wind was at least 20-30mph gusting sideways, and after that my buddy said it sounded like I was shooting an auto (once deer was on run-never touched it...first shot ALWAYS one's best opportunity IMHO), and I was catching my brass in my hand!!!! Go Figure, re-barreled later to a heavier contour bbl and lower powered scope, increased my hit ration dramatically. Used that in 7mmBR last year to drop a running deer at 200 yds,,,,scope-4x32 Nikon ProStaff. Worked fine. Had I had a variable cranked to max (the common temptation when you have time to crank)...i.e. that 14x I doubt that deer would have fallen.

So I have learned first hand how a high mag scope CAN be couterproductive in certain situations, when 95% of the shots I have had offered could have been taken/WERE taken using 4x and 6x's as a good 2/3 or 3/4 of deer I have shot were using said fixed scopes, if not more.

BOGC2, you could do ALOT worse than that combo. For deer, being a handloader, I'd prefer a 6.5x55, 260 or 7/08 really liking the short actions but the Rugers handle fast and are not overly heavy, and the 280 will run right with the best of them, and have factory ammo, if that is important.

A trigger job and perhaps floating the bbl if range test indicate would be the only things you might consider. If an FX-II, shorter tube, you may want a reverse ring, but not sure if needed, depends on gun fit, but the scopes have lots of eye relief so odds are you will be fine w/o.

No offense intended to your brother, but it had nothing to do with being 'OVER-ENGINEERED' for the opportunity. What you described was a very simple case of not being proficient or experienced with his equipment. I'm not a fan of blaming equipment as an excuse for incompetence.

Just because the scope has a turret and it's zeroed for 100 doesn't mean you walk around hunting with it dialed to 100. Why on earth would anybody do that? You dial it up to 250 or 300, etc (depending upon how flat shooting the round is I used 300 this year) exactly for situations like you described--point and shoot. Use the time available in a "snap shot" situation like that to concentrate on the shot. There should have been absolutely no difference no matter what scope he had.

A turret being on the scope was not the problem. Your brother not knowing how to hunt with one was.

JonA, I agree 100%. It was the ill-fated attempt by a lesser experienced person to set their expectations overly high that when zeroed dead on, one simply needed to look at a chart of where the scope needs to be clicked to get them on.....with that model out to 800 yds in his words. Flawed thinking no doubt.

I do not take your comments personally, but I do stand, yes for that shot and many, as cool as that 2-8x36 Mr/T looks and can work well for it's application, mid range tactical, I think his having a scope with those knobs altered his actions and likely cost him a simply, faster, cleaner shot on that deer. Time spent clicking the knob was lost time he could have had gaining a better sight pic/hold/squeeze IMHO. One will never know

You are correct, a COMPETENT shooter, KNOWING their equipment would have been fine as to not having the scope features be the blame of the outcome.

Your points are mostly all spot on, but the one thing I disagree with is, THAT scope was not the right scope for HIM IMHO, as it slowed him down and his flawed thinking having a set zero at 100, vs a point shoot zero of 200/250 or whatever, was what cost him.

Had he used a simpler scope, his shot cycle would have been simpler, and likely more odds his aim was on the mark.

Yes, the scope was not the problem, his thinking another guy's choice was cool who had one, resulting in him buying one too, overcomplicated his thought process in that critical short window of time.

If we all had a GAME COURSE set up on our ranges, say deer size metal silhouettes that would fall or swing when hit at all various ranges 100-400 yds, or just ring when hit, then had a timer set for say 3-5 seconds to raise gun, aim, fire and record hit ratio, one might learn alot about what works and does not re: weight and fit of rifle, scope used, and even how the chambering/recoil affects their ability to squeeze w/o flinching.

More range time would have better prepared my bro, correct no equipment failure, not a slam on the nice scope, but for HIM, and his CURRENT level of experience, he learned all the gadgetry in the world will not replace range time getting familiar with his equipment. Those knobs COULD have zeroed him on, but he did not even have/use a range finder, nor did he need one for that distance and his rifle/load combo, had he had whatever scope on his gun zeroed further out, ELIMINATING his desire to waste valuable time twisting the knob. To my mind, not as much as time lost, but it is a big distraction, which in MY mind, causes a shooter in that type of situation to panic fearing time is running out, and they rush the shot worrying it might be lost. In doing so, the hold is often not as stable, and sight pic may not be as good in vitals, let alone a good squeeze w/o pulling the bbl off mark.

You might agree on this statement JonA..."Beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it" but you do bring up points that I agree on mostly, wholeheartedly. Thanks for your post.

It reminds me the time I lost the biggest chance I ever had in killing a HUGE buck, walking broadside in a field, 150-200 yds, using a M8 6x36 duplex, on a Ruger 1B 270. I had a rest, 150 ballistic tip handloads shooting fine, but in a last minute 'brain fart' back shortly after college (as in wet behind my ears) my last sight in session I made the fatal mistake of raising my POI from 1.5/2" at 100yds, to 3-3.5". That deer was walking in grass, and all I seen was the head/neck and I GUESTIMATED where the body was, and was wrong, it was lower and I doubt it was so much bullet deflection as it was incorrect 'visualization' thinking where my lung shot SHOULD have been on that huge WT buck.

In doing so, I missed my first shot, in a panic worrying time was quickly running out, I quickly reloaded another round and repeated my mistake. This went on for either four if not I believe 5 shots! Buck never ran, anything, just kept walking and I kept missing! I was rushing my reloading of that single shot to maximize time for each shot, and WISH I had never raised the POI for one thing.

At the end of the day, had I fired ALL five shots, at that bucks neck that I COULD see, I am confident ONE of them, if not the first or second would have killed that buck. It was nice, a VERY big spread, but it was a lesson learned I will never forget.

Do not aim at what you cannot see, and DO stay calm and make the first shot count and if it does not don't go insane trying to keep doing the same thing, and expecting different results! LOL.

So, yes, I have learned the hard way, OVER ANALYZING what I was doing, and it started with an improperly zeroed rifle which did not help on that day. The reason I did that? Thinking as many do, WHAT IF? What IF I get that shot at 400-500 yds....

Nearly 20 years have gone by since then, and I have only fired at one deer over 400 yds, and it was w/o a rangefinder in strange terrain in CO mountains, could have been 400/450 or even 600 yds I don't know, but Point is, all other deer were at 250 and under except 2. One was that same CO trip, around 275 paces, and another at 400 yds. FAR more likely in MY experience to have opportunties at ranges knobs are not needed, and MAY cost you a shot fooling with them. Currently I zero POI at 200, but have thought about 250 due to others experienc, but I have yet to miss using the 200 zero...due to the fault of the POI where I hunt. It was the Indian that missed, not the bow as has been said.

After 400 yds, a LRF and KNOBS can become invaluable, if a hunter elects to take a shot IMHO, but that is not how I hunt deer and big game.

That very much reminds me of a fella we picked up at the airport about 5 years ago. He was coming in to W TX to hunt sandhills mule deer, and showed up with a Weatherby 30-378 wearing a Leupy 6-24 varmint type scope with all the bells and whistles. From the moment we met him he bragged about his rig, and shooting abilities. To make a long story short, he shot 26 times in 4 days, all clean misses from 75-350 yards. To say he "flinched" would be an understatement. I'd almost call it a seizure while pulling the trigger. He didn't get shots off quick enough at least 7-8 times because he was screwin' around with those turrets, or having his scope turned to 24x trying to shoot at a deer 75 yards away. We finally told him he was done, never mind he didn't kill a buck, and told him to not bother to come back.

How much did he pay for your services?

Again, you have no idea who I am or what I have done with a rifle and scope. Assuming that everyone other than yourself is an idiot in regards to optics might be why you are actually the one ill-informed. I would imagine that you would refuse information provided to you, regardless of the source, if said information did not agree with your preconceived notions about how optics work.

Just something for you to think about.

I don�t care what they claim, nobody going through 26 rounds or 60 rounds between two to fill a tag are competent with any rifle in any circumstance by any stretch of the definition. Stories about them sure do make for good anecdotes though--especially when they happen to be using gear for which one doesn�t approve.

Stories about the �One box a year� guys who use that entire box every year to fill a single tag with Grandpa�s �06 and whatever scope happened to be the cheapest in the Sears and Robuck catelog 40 years ago (even if it is a *GASP* fixed 4X or 6X) just aren�t nearly as entertaining. I guess maybe there are no people like that where you guys hunt. Maybe every slob hunter where you guys hunt has a $800 or $1000+ scope on his rifle?

If we could only be so lucky. That would eliminate about 95% of them in my neck of the woods.

And there's not a a thing wrong with that. Hunting the way you like to hunt is what it�s all about.

Personally, I like to do it many different ways. When I got my mule deer this year on the wide open prairies at about 415 yds away, it was only about an hour earlier I had a whitetail buck in the crosshairs at under 20 and a couple more under 50. Had any of them had big enough headgear, the fancy turret nor the complicated zooming mechanism on the hubble would have kept me from putting any of them on the ground. However I�m sure if I kept the pricetag of the scope attached they all would have been safe because I can only carry so much ammo for this big magnum before my back seizes up.

This is also absolutely correct IMO....the point is to know the equipment and be zeroed for "the longest distance that will not cause mid range misses",to paraphrase a fairly well-known gunwriter who is now deceased.... The problem some guys have is that they may not react properly under the stress of the moment,and make the "wrong" decision in the use of the equipment.If you need the technology, it is there,but if you DON't ignore it, as Jon and JB both imply...

Since I am simple by nature,and easily confused by technical "things", I long ago tried to make hitting as easy as I possibly could,so took Jack O'Connors advice and followed the "kiss" principle as to both my methods of zero,and my choice of scope.Many of my habits are now so ingrained,that I could not make the transition to more complex gear if I tried.....

This does not mean that others cannot use the new technology,but there are times to use it,and there are times to JUST SHOOT! Cause he's gonna get away if you don't!!!!!!!!!

I like the little Zeiss conquest 4X great scope that will cover about 90% of hunting, and for 300to 350 dollars. One heck of a value!

Ed

Bob, you could...just 3000 - 5000 repetitions will ingrain the new "ranging, knob-turning high-tech" hunting methods!