Home Forums Lever Action Central Cowboy Levers .357 mag black bear loads

Fred, re: pistol 357s stopping people, bullets are key, the 125 JHP loads were giving around 97% one shot stops IIRC.

As to velocity, well, 1240mv /540 ft. lbs. Fed factory 158gr ammo-whatever pistol bbl length tested, surely a 4" or maybe 6".

My Marlin spits said 158 grain, at 2000+ for 1400 Lbs.

Hmmmm, looks like the rifle has 260%, that is 2.6x the energy.

Have you shot a Rifle in 357 Royce? I will paste a post from another forum by a man who used the 357 exclusively. It was a random find via google.

Re: What good is the .357 Magnum rifle for whitetail deer hunting?
10-06-2008, 09:22 PM
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Re: What good is the .357 Magnum rifle for whitetail deer hunting?

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Periscope Depth Wow where to start. My dad used to go hunting with some guy named Roy and Dad used to sell his rifles. Out of this I got a Weatherby 257 magnum with my initials on it. Needles to say I could not hunt with this rifle for fear of scratching it. As a kid I traded a half dead calf for a little 357 rifle. Everyone has a 270 or a 30-06 for a near perfect all around hunting rifle. Then the hope of an Africa hunt and a 375HnH shows up on the rack. Then the fever hits and a specific rifle for specific type of hunting comes to mind. The middle ground is covered the high end is usually covered with some type of mega magnum but what about the lower end. I believe the 357 rifle fills this bill very well. Now back to a day in the life growing up in MT. I would wake up go out to the CJ2 and grab the 357 ck barrel load it up with bird shot and go into the barn and shoot pigeons that were crappin all over the combines. Then outside (2 notches up on rear sight) load it up with 38spec 148grain wadcutters and attempt to shoot some pesky cats. It would make a nice pop so mom would not wake up and realize what I was doing. Hop into the Jeep to fence or some kind of work, load it up with full house 170grain Keith style bullets and hope I would see that massive 7 pointer or maybe get to split another coyote in half.
Not enough for deer? Has anyone looked at the original 30-30�s load and it was considered a bear killer. I have killed 30 mules� whitetails and one elk with this rifle. One of those deer was out to 200yards.
Let�s compare some store bought stuff. Buffalo bore 357 180 grain bullets; they leave my 18 inch barrel around 2000fps. A 170 grain 30-30 leaves a 22inch barrel at 2200fps. A 357 is about 30% wider before expansion and 10% heavier. The 30-30 wins velocity by 10% but I can throw a ball 200fps. 35rem due to its low pressure is pretty much the same. Comparing same 158grain bullet. Some people may say the BC is better but at 150yrds this is miniscule. Choose a median gel wet news paper and you will see why it works so well. The 357 is a hand loaders dream and it is cheap. My brother and I would sit and shoot over a thousand rounds at small rocks at around 200yrds every Sat. This is the only thing that really matters in hunting the accuracy of the shooter ,um��practice. Most reload manuals are using fast burning pistol powders which really limit the potential. Thanks to cowboy action slower burning powders like Hod LilGun are using the full potential and keeping pressure well within limits and velocity higher.
I have moved around a lot, an army thing and I still like Mt the most but now that I live in WI the 357 is all I use. I do like showing up the neighbor and his new 300Win short magnum. I bounce between 180 to 158 but the 125 is made to be frangible and not over penetrate so it would not be a good choice for deer.
I blab a lot but there are many other writers on the web that have taken a serious look and agree with me. Get it and you will be very happy.


I thought the above users comments might shed light on the 357, WHEN used in a Rifle obtaining SIGNIFICANTLY higher velocity and energy, which MUST correlate into SIGNIFICANTLY higher killing power vs. traditional revolver ballistics.

Hope that helps some sort thru the ballistic minutia/Gack of 357...Rifle vs. Handgun performance.

BTW, what I found when running numbers just now, a 357 from a rifle, has the SAME energy remaining at 200 yards, as a handgun does at the muzzle! SO, 1282 fps/576 lbs at 200 yds, when started at 2,000 mv in a rifle.....

Yes, a 30/30 has higher velocity and energy, but I am confident the 357 in a rifle will give very good results in ballistic media and on game at typical ranges lever actions are used. Both are likely under rated and overlooked when compared to today's rifles, but they have and will take alot of game at woods ranges. Seriously, if you put a 357 handgun round point blank into a deer or other animal, thru vitals, I doubt it's going far and a rifle's accuracy and shootability will allow easier shot placement, and further, as well as higher energies.

It's no 308, but it's not a popgun either. Ask the deer I shot last Friday afternoon. DRT, as in DROPPED RIGHT THERE and never left tracks. 75 yds.

Your point about the 125 grain bullet in the 357 having 97 % stops is correct, I believe.
By the way 65br, what load do you use to get 2000 fps with a 158 grain bullet in a 357? The only two sources I could find gave a top load velocity of around 1600 fps.
Perhaps the 357 in a rifle is an adequate bear stopper but until I saw something more conclusive I would choose something that has a more solid track record.

Royce

From Buffalo Bore's site, regarding their 357 mag ammo:

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps

And a worthy read...

357 Magnums

1935 - Major Douglas Wesson

* Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
* Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
* Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
* Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

Better hunters than I ever hope to be have used it to harvest some pretty tough game.

Plink

Royce, I am not advocating a 'bear stopper' but feel if it were in my hands - a rifle, and called upon, I can with confidence commence firing with proper loads and know it will get the job done if I do my part. Little margin of error perhaps, but shot placement is paramount with any caliber. 12 gauge with buckshot or slugs or a 350 mag surely would be preferable, but to answer your question - My load (safe in my Marlin) is 19.0 of Lil gun. That powder added a good bit of performance to the 357, esp. in a rifle over previous powders.

I'd assume 1750-1800+ is had with H110/W296, etc. in rifles.

Plinker, I will add that my recollection says, 1) Wesson used an 8 3/8" bbl 2) Loads then were VERY hot, and since been toned down for factory loads

Marksmanship was 95% of the outcome - as I can imagine shot placement was 'EXACT' and we don't know/I don't know what other animals may have been fired upon and not recovered.

That said, the history stands even though I'd imagine Wesson pushed the rounds envelope to prove its capabilities and sell the public on it's utility.

I do recall an article on a guy who was fascinated with a .30 Luger Broomhandle and took bears with it. Combo of high Vel w/jacketed small cal. bullets enabled penetration thru vitals. These feats are surely had when the users were crackshots and placed slugs in/thru vitals leading to success in the field.

Paco has some great reads, seems to love levers, as well as 35s.

Have you been drinking again? I'm starting to wonder if maybe crack isn't involved. Just joking of course but lets get real. You found some post on Google from some unknown entitity with a single post that claims his dad hunted with Roy Weatherby and now he shoots rocks at 200 yards with a 357! LMAO That may be the funniest and most worthless post I have ever read. Unless you are Elmer Keith you sure won't be shooting at 200 yards with a 357. I'm starting to seriously doubt that you have ever shot a single bear let alone been up close and personal.
It's not exactly like the wittle 30-30 is the epitome of over kill and recoil.

Let me clearly state here that I am no expert on either bears or the 357 round in revolver or rifle form. My intent was to point out some information that I had been exposed to, and let others decide if if applied to their situation.
In the process, I ended up learning something, namely that Buffalo Bore makes some very stout loads for the 357.
I believe there is a significant difference between taking a big game animal that you have stalked and/or is unaware of your presence and stopping a determined charge from a few feet away of an animal that could weigh 400 or 500 pounds.
I don't understand the logic of "Well, I am going to take a bear protection gun, but I won't probably need it, so I'll take something that will maybe work".
Phil Shoemaker, who posts here as 458 Win has written about using the 357 as a bear stopper, but he and his family live with bears on a daily basis and are very familiar with bear behavior. I believe in one of his recent articles, he said that in the 25 years or so that he and his family have been guiding bear hunters and living in bear country, he and his employees have only had to kill one bear in defense of life and property. However, when the rest of us mere mortals encounter a bear, there is going to be a lot more of the pucker factor involved.
Bottom line, if you believe the 357 is an adequate bear stopper, you could be right.

Royce

"Bottom line, if you believe the 357 is an adequate bear stopper, you could be right"

Then again you could be dead wrong! As you said there is no comparison to killing game stalked to killing DG in an unexpected charge. Some use bow and arrow for grizzly. I don't see any one using a bow for self defense and talking about broad head weight. I could care less what any one uses but is phuggin comical listening to some one pull drivel off from Google and compare shooting whitetails or rocks to charging bears. Personally I won't be taking a 45-70 for Cape buffalo any time sooner than I take a 357 lever gun for self defense against a bear attack. IMO there are those who just want to believe what they read and they are far more likely to be the ones that become statistics. After all if you read it on the internet it must be true!

Well, call me Elmer because I shoot 200 yard targets with my Marlin 1894C in 357 Mag. Out of said carbine, the old 357 mag equals the 357 Remington Maximum out of a T/C Contender.

Still, it's not my first choice to stop a charging bear.

If you can hit a standard target and shoot groups at 200 yards then your for sure a better shot than I am. Even at 100 yards I have trouble shooting what could be described as groups. It's more like 4" patterns. 200 yards is way beyond my ability with this round but then I'd say the same thing about the 44mag. I've seen a target shot at 650 yards with a handgun from a 44. Not that it didn't take hours and hundreds of rounds to finally hit the mark.

Well Stetson, I guess the Truth is all dependent upon the user, and the results.

I don't believe all I read, nor on crack or drinking etc. I have done alot of reading and many people compare top 357 rifle loads to 30/30 factory loads. Long ago using another persons 30/30 with a steel buttplate, I found it uncomfortable to fire to say the least. That same round I loved in my TC 10" w/Pachmayr grips, even shot a group w/factory 150 corelokts that I will swear to must have measured like 1/4" C-t-C at 50 yds with 2x scope.

MY gun, w/Peep sights wadded up MANY bullets around 1" at 50 yds with my loads, so I have no doubt many/most Marlins will group 1.5-3" groups consistently....if the shooter is up to it.

I won't argue that a 357 Mag in pistol or rifle is ideal or preferred if one had to defend themselves against a Black Bear, but if one has calm nerves and time to fire a few well placed shots, I have confidence, even though you don't that I would be ok. Maybe I am wrong. The only way we will know is if I someday were to be in that situation, and odds are I will be carrying a rifle in a larger cartridge.

Its more for discussion purposes, but I get a laugh out of how much gun some use to hunt deer, and other game at common ranges somehow feeling inadept with lesser rounds.

Marksmanship w/bullets that penetrate vitals, preferably with expansion. Barnes 140 X bullet in 357 might be a hard one to beat in a situation like the hypothetical one discussed, but I'd be content as well with Buffalo Bore Hardcast loads.

Stetson, btw, years back, I shot a 4" 629 at the range one day, my shooting buddy had a few milk jugs with water, I asked if I could try some. At 100 yds, my 3rd shot offhand hit/exploded the jug using a 200 Nosler 44 cal. w/4grains under max load. Then I tried at 150 yds, my first shot exploded that jug.

With my Marlin, when I first got it using open sights, at 100 thru 150 yds, I was exploding 2 liter coke bottles and milk jugs filled with water, about 7 out of 10 shots sometimes more often, OFFHAND.

I am no expert, but many peers have said I do pretty good. The buddy above called me the following week asking what I was using, 'a 6" 629?' and I said, NO, a 4". His next comment, leave the rifles at home, as I shot better than many guys do with rifles.

SO, what I am saying is we all have different comfort levels, and confidence that comes with range time, that usually increases hit ratios, allow one to start forgetting foot pounds and velocity so much, and focus on hitting what you shoot at.

I have no doubt on the post I found, it was one of many I found googling 30/30 loads vs. 357 rifle loads. There are those with the time and ambition to spend lots of time getting to know their weapon of choice.

A rifle zero'd at 100, IIRC, drops about 10" at 200 in a 357 rifle.

That is not much different than a say 30/06, zero'd at 200, dropping at 300.

Hitting targets at 200 is not a chip shot, but not very difficult either when you get the drop. MY EXPERIENCE puts my confidence level to 150, as the drop gets more severe at 200 no doubt, but it is not that difficult. Try it sometimes.

I shot a 1.25" 3 shot group (two cutting same hole) checking my 357 zero last week, using a baby 2.5x Leupold, at 70 paces, off the top of my car, over a boot laying on it's side for a front rest. Nothing special, and not bad for a gun with an admittingly heavy factory trigger.

I'll continue hunting and killing deer with my 357 which is what I got it for, as well as for the 'fun factor' as maybe you should see what you're missing and try one! It is a combo that is surprisingly deadly on deer sized game, w/o the bark and recoil of larger rounds, nor the meat destruction.

On crack, you're too funny my friend! LMAO...

LOL Well that last post I can agree with for the most part although I honestly have never heard any one complain about the recoil from a turty turty. After all A hella lot of young hunters over the years have wound up the proud owner of a Model '94 as their first gun. I also agree I can place them like you say at 75 yards. All day long. At 100 it takes more work. By 125 it's another story let alone 200. The Marlin is a great gun but it is was it is. It's not a long range weapon. I don't doubt it can be done I just don't see the relevance to the topic. Bears can eat a lot of lead. Having said that grizz has been stopped in his tracks with one shot from a bow and arrow. That's a fact. I'll stick with the 44 mag.

No long range weapon correct, BC is not high either, I have other rifles, my limit though is 400 under ideal conditions, right rifle, perfect rest, no wind, KNOWN range, etc. Killed one deer that far with a 6mmBR, a few others around 250/275yd w/270 and 6.5x55, but most shots under 200, in fact likely 80% under 100yds. I like long range shooting, and it's a rush taking one far, but the thrill of having game up close gives me the biggest thrill. The challenge of being limited by a weapon useful at close ranges was why I got the 357. To add an element of challenge I guess you could say. Finding I may be using it alot more on stands I hunt in the woods at my buddy's place, as well as a climber. May be pulling the scope back off and force myself to use Irons. Some day I am going to dust off my long bow under the bed if my brother would ever assemble my arrows.

I imagine that one experience with that 30/30 long ago was with a metal buttplate that was the main culprit. I did not want to shoot it again, but being a 20 year old w/little HP rifle experience under my belt, I was surprised. I was myself using a 7mag as I got a deal at a gunshow for a 700 adl for $200, but I had wanted a 270. I proceeded to load down for deer to 280 levels. Later sold it, gun too heavy, recoil/blast also for what I needed....over the years used many guns/calibers, etc. but shot placement was/has been the determining factor. Knowing what a cartridge/load WILL do and won't do, makes one use discipline in if/when and where to aim when hunting. The day I shot the 400yd deer, I double lunged it broadside w/105 amax and it died in 25 yds from hit. Seconds earlier had a deer at 200yd standing still facing away from me, so I shot the backbone as it was dead on zero at the range, and I know I had little penetration at the higher impact speed up close with a frangible bullet. Dropped right there, and bullet did as I figured, completely vaporized on backbone.

You know what amazes me Stetson, not the bow and arrow, but the one that an indian woman shot with a single shot 22 rifle, had one bullet, in a berry patch and Griz smelled her and stood up, she squatted, fearing the inevitable, put one behind the ear IIRC, and killed it dead. Now that was fate, good for her, bad for the bear. That comment about Phil only having once in 25 yrs is a nice to know, that statistically odds are one hopes to never have a bad encounter, but it does happen.

I do not want anyone to be a bear's dinner and recommend when able, people carry something with a good amount of power, but that they can still shoot well. I do think people can/do overgun themselves at times and the adverse affect it has on accuracy can be counterproductive.

BTW, I don't claim to be able to shoot that well at will with a handgun, and I can imagine under stress, a handgun is all the more difficult to aim, at a bear, much less deer. Taken 2 myself -deer, with handguns, but admit when back in college, unloaded a few shots on a close range doe and only had ringing ears to show for it. I think my eyes were focused on deer, and not the sights.

Ahhhh, what experience and wisdom gained from that teaches us over time. How is the hunting up your way this year? My cousins and uncle are in Warren, was at my Aunt's funeral there a couple months ago. Hear the state...Detroit area hard hit by auto slowdown. Hope your not caught up in it.

I'm pretty close to Warren. The whole area has been impacted by the auto industry decline and many shops are trying to pick up bids on wind turbine parts now. Basiicly every one is waiting for Chrysler to go under. They had huge layoffs the night before Turkey day. I lost a good bit of my work a when Comerica and VW left the area.
The story about the Native woman with the 22 really is amazing. Not sure if that was AK or BC but some one once put her photo up here on the fire. I'll attach a link to the story about the guy that shot the bear with a bow that was attacking his boy.
BTW I actually really like the 357, or just about any pistol caliber that fits in a lever gun. To be honest I never met a lever action I didn't like.
I also agree about too much gun. God knows I see more than one fool at the range every year with the latest greatest 300 wizz bang magnum shooting the boards or some thing stupid because their ego is 10X the size of their ability.

http://www.codyenterprise.com/articles/2008/09/22/news/news3.txt

The only thing I really have against the guys that bring the big stuff to the range, is my ears get beat up big time, esp. the guys using the big 300s and when braked....if they hit what they aim at, all is well. Me, I just enjoy shooting ALOT when I go to the range, so heavy recoiling guns would never get as much shooting in one session, and for my style of hunting, I have done well w/o.

Reading that story was very interesting. That father got it together on his shot to save his son's life and KUDOS for his shooting skills, and more importantly the resolve to stay calm enough to pull it off.

Yeah was not sure about the Alaska/BC thing, but that woman was lucky.

We have a GM plant in my town, that is being/was shut down recently. I imagine the thought never occured to workers years in the past. Hopefully for you and the unemployed/underemployed i.e. my cousins, up your way, the auto industry makes a comeback. Perhaps newer technology can spark a much needed boost to the US auto industry, and the economy as a whole.

A poor choice for bear, but if you insist then I would opt for a hard cast bullet and try for the brain shot..I have shot enough game with the 357 pistol to determine to my satisfaction that its a piss poor caliber for anything except humans, that is where it excells.

My minimum would be the 44 mag. in a rifle and I would much prefer the Win. M-94 trapper in 30-30 for what you suggest. You can compare the .357 to the 30-30 all day long but when it comes to killing power there is NO comparison. If you have ever seen a pissed off bear or any other wild animal coming for you, then your perspective changes forever....

Personally not advocating shooting a bear, but would if it's all I had, and if properly loaded, would feel confident the killing power would be similar to a 30/30 at say under 100 yds. I'd be shocked if ballistic media test showed a top load in a 357 rifle, would be much worse than a 30/30.

Seems you have had experience with 357s on humans, but not bears. Picking cartridge choice for afield is often based on emotions, much as the buying and selling of stocks.

Agree on heavy hard cast (save a 140 Barnes) and brain shot and realize any marginal caliber requires exact shot placement to be most effective on stopping a large animal quickly. There are many better choices we all agree. I think a 44 with a heavy hard cast might surprise the hell out of someone who thinks the 30/30 will outpenetrate it. Higher vel with jacketed expanding bullet i.e. 30/30 often stops short of high momentum hard cast handgun bullets. Having shot both out of a TC handgun, I know which hit the ram much harder at 100 yds due to bullet blow up 30/30 vs. lack thereof, and sheer momentum due to bullet weight-44.

I'm with atkinson, I'd rather have a 30-30 or 35 Rem Trapper or Marauder for work on bear than a .357 Mag.. I doubt that the short carbine would be any heavier or longer than a 1894C and would speak with more authority.

Now a 35 Rem would surely give a noticeable difference in power, and then a 358, and a 350, and Whelen, and so on.

Yes, a 35 would be better, but ME, I've like handling the 450 Marlins back when they came out- at my gunshop, the 45/70s would do the same, close range, big heavy bullets, fast repeat shots, controlled, quick handling gun, open/peep sights, yep much better...than a 30-30 or 35 Rem I'd suppose.

I'd truly have to see ballistic media test results with 30/30 loads, vs heavy 357 loads. Stetson I believed mentioned Buffalo Bore ammo coming out-heavy, for 3030 so if so, that surely would win out, but if you look at heavy bullets loaded up for 357s, vs the jacketed 150/170s, I would be very interested in seeing how they hold up, deep they penetrate, and what wound channel looks like, before making a decision.

Suffice to say again, not advocating it be THE choice, but if it was what is in hand, with shot placement and good bullets-can do the deed.. however - without good shooting by a cool nerved shooter, results could be bad, in an unlikely albeit potentially dangerous black bear defense scenario no matter what one shoots. In that case, a 12 gauge might be best!

Yep.

If you already have the 357 puma, it should get the job done. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd take my 45 Colt Puma over my 357 Winchester. In fact, it was the gun I took on my first black bear hunt.

If you're looking to buy, I'd step up to a 44 mag or 45 colt. You shouldn't have any problems with either. One of my hunting partners took a 200 lb sow with his 44 this year. One shot with factory hornady xtp's.

If I was carrying a 357 I'd look for some 158gr hornady ammo. I personally like the lighter/faster bullet combo. since you reload, I'd look at setting the barnes 140gr bullets on top of a healthy charge of H110. In my limited experience, I think speed is your friend with the little lever-actions.

But, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.