Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Lethality Index, which one is the best/

Formulas don't seem to help me much..maybe I'm just not smart enuf' to make sense of em...While my experience pales before many who post here, I'm not exactly a beginner. I killed my first deer 60 years ago and in the intervening years I've killed another 200+ ungulates of various sorts...from little Texas whitetails to a really big ole Livingston Eland..If I counted right, I've done it with at least 14 different cartridges..and only God knows how many different kinds of bullets at who knows how many different velocities...My formula is the same [or close] to Mrs. Barness...shoot em' in the front third with any reasonable cartridge for the task and go gut em'
jmr

Bobin, I think you are right, his wife wants more frontal diameter....lol, just kidding. Ok, Both get the job done, if the 338 fits her better go for it, its a great round in it's design envelope, a sensible big game round to 300 yds or so.

Jeff, I agree with you and Elmer, larger bores do not need premiums, but to your point...I had a 338/06, dropped 3 deer, 1 at 25 yds, raking shot busting shoulder stopping under hide, 120 gr left IIRC of 200 ballistic tip, 3 jumps down, another large buck, similar size, 200 yds, shoulder/neck junction-looked like a silhouette target-just pushed over, never moved, BUT a small buck appeared one morning, around 40 yds, I thought it was a large doe around 70 yds and wanted to neck shoot it, but also wanted to see performance on a body shot. Let lead fly, deer turned and ran right toward the stand I was in, a hole similar to the pic you had, and blood was just POURING out the hole every heartbeat - you could see as it ran by....I was shocked. Made it around 100 yds. Lung shot, broadside. Now, turned out, never hunted that stand, early in am, my range estimation was not right/depth perception, etc. as it was the first time hunting that terrain, and in very early dawn light.

The deer, a button buck, weighed a mere 55 lbs on the scale! I think it never absorbed the bulk of the energy from the bullet. I really believe had I brought my TC Carbine in 6mm TCU w/85 Sierra BTHP, that deer would have dropped very fast.

BUT on those larger bucks, 140-160lbs, the 338 bullet dumped them fast. I guess there are no absolutes as we all know.

My last deer DRT with a 130 gr accubond, 250 paces, lung shot, via 6.5x55. Range member told me recently a tactical shooter using a 6.5x47 w/130 Berger VLD dumped a 286 lb buck in tracks, right behind shoulder, in 200ish yd range IIRC.

I do like/appreciate larger mid bore rounds, but with good bullets and shot placement smaller bores get it done.

Re: 280, my hunting buddy I routinely hunt with has a 700 custom shop rifle, uses 139 SST lite mag most times and his animals drop fast usually, but the meat damage often leaves something to be desired. Personally I like the 7/08 in a 7mm, and a 140 Accubond seems a top choice on deer. He could use another bullet with less devastation.

Comparing a 175 partition in a 280, I'll assume it's for larger game i.e. Elk, or perhaps for closer range deer to avoid high speed bullets causing excess meat damage. I'd flip a coin on killing effect to 300 yds on say elk. A 185 x bullet, or 210 partition should both do great in a 338 Federal with adequate shot placement.

If you had to shoot 400 yds, a 280, with perhaps a flatter lighter bullet like a 150-160 partition would minimize range error estimations and might enhance shot placement in field. One must determine THEIR max range per shooting ability, and their rifle/load combo, as well as the type of hunting they intend, if contemplating cartridge choice.

I think the OP wants to give the 338 Federal a whirl out of curiousity and needs a reason to justify....

7mm 145 grain implies Speer, and their BTSPs are not Hot Cors and are swaged with a softer core alloy.

30 yds. and 7Mag implies high impact speed.

Soft bullet + high impact speed = splat.

Then frontal area can vary too.....sometimes bullets with a different rep can surprise you. Part and TSX:

JB,

Sorry,

Did not even notice this was the gunwriters area,usually I refrain from pontification in that forum,at least until an actual writer has answered.

I'm sure 12 gauge slugs do have their uses. However, any 'index' which assigns a 'rating' of 13.2 to the .257 Weatherby Mag, 37.6 to the .375 H&H Mag and 80.2 to 12 gauge slugs isn't useful for 'overall' comparison IMHO (and perhaps this particular one - TKO - was never intended for overall comparisons).

RD,

My post wasn't directed at anybody for "jumping in." We established long ago that anybody could post on the ATG forum.

My point was that none of the gun writers apparently found this subject important enough to post about, probably because most (like me) have found in the long run that none of the formulas are particularly valid.

In the old days such formulas mostly gave gun writers some new BS to put into print. Nowadays they mostly serve to keep Internet chat rooms active. None has much bearing on reality.

About the only thing I've observed in the field is that sometimes fatter, heaver bullets will kill animals quicker--and sometimes they don't. Trying to quantify something that has so many variables is much applying a formula to the way food tastes.

It is always amazing to me how many people quote Taylor's TKO formula without knowing that it only applied to solids and head-shot elephants--and also that most African PH's of today think it's BS. Or at least none that I've ever become acqainted with have thought much of it, including Finn Aagaard.

RD, the "stopping power" thing and slugs...not antecdotal but I saw a small doe a fellow had shot thru the butt sideways with a 12 guage slug and it made a neat 1 inch or so hole you could actually see thru!! antecdotal was a story about the police shooting thru the back of a van thru a seat and thru a criminal of some type with a 12 guage slug and they could see light thru him when he got out of the car to run a few yards before he expired....that one is a stretch maybe after 4 pages and Mr. Barnes comment which makes perfect sense I guess the horse is dead and hopefully the Remington stays! ...just for the record however on lethality this in the news from my neck of the woods...

Police shot Devin Grant at least 16 times following a chase from Atlanta to Douglasville last week.

And Grant is alive and doing well.
His body was riddled with bullets --- in his neck, back, arms and leg, said Dr. Raymond Cava, a Grady Memorial Hospital surgeon. When it was over, he had been hit so many times that he had 24 entry and exit wounds.

"He's going to live," Cava said. "I think he's extremely lucky

Along those sage lines I might add that anyone who does use that formula has a caliber/cartridge agenda.

jimmyp, I have dusted more than one deer with said slugs and despite being quite hellish up close have had deer walk off as if unhit (they were "dead"). Seen them take 338's/250's too and have had one drop without a twitch with a 22LR with the same placement. I've heard them called tough and easy to kill; all you can do is wreck the vitals.

I have a copy of Taylor's book and must say that I have not missed enough elephant brains to comment on how well TKO values hold up on various and sundry pachyderms.

I also realize that all of the methods to calculate lethality have their limits. Calculate the TKO value of a typical bowling ball before it hits the pins when you have the time,or the kinetic energy of a very tiny particle as it approaches the speed of light. Neither are likely to kill anything but both have very impressive 'values'.

Roy Weatherby and Elmer Keith were both right and wrong depending upon the circumstances,come to think of it,that pretty much remains the case with all of us.

As one of the loonier gun nuts about,I reserve the right to like my 35 Whelen and my 257 Weatherby because.....

Well just because.

Well.....Yeah!

just goes to show every experience is unique!

I never comment (in the field) on what a man hunts with as I have been just as big a dummy as most everyone at one time or another we all have then furthermore its none of my business! So Slugs, 22's, slingshots take your pick! I never even smile when I see them prying on their 7400 bolts with a screwdriver or sighting in at 10 yards. Does this not harken back to the days of the 7 x 57 pitted against the 45-70 down south of the Florida coast a bit?

thanks all for your input. Her 280 is tuned so has a nice trigger and i load for low muzzle blast and accuracy, that's why the 175 horn and 51.5 gr of imr 4350. she has had this rifle for 19 yrs and will not part with it ...nor her old High Standard pistol, go figure.

Gee! Stuff that works. Whaddaya know....

You would never guess it, but this one ran almost 200 yards (yep, it was "dead"). Dad used a Brenneke 1 1/8oz. Mag slug at less than 10 yds. Yes, the exit is just as large on the other side.

Exactly one month ago to the day. Doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen, despite being a solid and having Taylor's KO blessing!

Mathman, good eye, back then loading a load PLANNING to duplicate 280 ballistics, but later, Speer revised their manual, as what I attempted THEN to download for what killed my buck, was a top end load, and yes, BTSP, fragile meant as Speer said to open well at long range. Suffice to say, I did catch the bullet/velocity was not ideal for where I ended up hunting, but it did the job, so no suffering animal, some lost meat, and a learning experience as each hunt and animal taken teaches me more.

On that hunt, a GS 160 would have been about right I think. Different slugs have different purposes they were designed to work best for, and it helps to know ahead of time.

Steve: Nice rifle

Been reading this stuff for years and still no definitive answer? Maybe Elmer had more going on than a big hat and flamboyance.
How can big holes not be better? Not always needed, but always better, within trajectory and recoil limitations. Take it to the extreme and it becomes obvious. I think...

Here's my new formula.


Muzzle Thump

MT= (SD/KE x 10,000) / Gf x Bf

Where:
SD = Sectional Density of the bullet you're using
KE = Kenetic Energy of the bullet
Game Factor (weight range) Gf: 4.0= 500-1000#, 3.0= 200-499#, 2.0= 50-199#, 1.0= 1-49#
Bullet Factor Bf: 1.0= TSX, FS, 2.0= A Frame, NP, 3.0 = C&C, BT, 4.0 = Varmint

A friend of mine has a son who probably would just grin if he took the time to read this stuff. Wastes his time in the woods and on the water rather than the internet. His house is starting to become a tribute to deer with the racks on his walls. I call him the natural. Big, strong, sees things the rest of us pass by, smart, not afraid of getting back in, excellent tracking skills and has been bumming around in the woods "studying" wildlife since a child. Unless he knows and likes you, don't look for a lot of conversation. Went to Maine and shot a moose the first time. Did the entire hunt on his own, from finding, shooting and getting it out.

The only thing that limits how fast a 700 can shoot is him and he can make it go. Not the best bench shot, but he practices at all ranges and knows where that rifle shoots. He looks at the damage a bullet does, but does not worry about what it looks like or take pictures of it after the fact. Doesn't worry about getting a perfect broadside shot. Front to back, back to front, side to side, quarter to quarter it's all the same. Unless they drop right now and stay there they will have additional holes placed in whatever opportunity is presented until it is over and it will happen quickly. Meat damage is not a consideration. Nor are lethality values or knock down formulas. If I was a buck and knew he was in the woods, I would find a tree and knock my horns off.

Caliber of choice is a .30-06 with a 200gr partition. Has complete confidence-from experience-that day in or out it will get to where it has to be or if hit with enough of them that it will make them sick enough to give it up.

He has proven to me this theory stuff is nothing more than that. Being a hunter that knows their stuff trumps it every time.