Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles 280 Ackley vs 7 Rem Mag

Shooting same bullet weights. "they" say the 280 Ackley almost duplicates the 7 mag with less powder. If you had a 280 Ackley, would the 7 mag really be a step up?

Near as I can tell, a 7 mag aint a meaningful step up from a factory .280.
If you had a 6mm a seven mag aint really a meaningful step to me,
If you want one, by all means get one, but it won't be a life altering experience,
Just my 2 bits, worth what you paid for it.

Both hand loaded to potential, the 7mm beats out the 280AI by @ 100fps across the board. Whether that's significant is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I don't even see the need for the extra 50fps+ or - the AI gives over the .280Rem. JMO, YMMV.

"they" told you right.

almost being the key.

I`d say the 2 are closest with bullets 150 grains or less.

The 280AI is the finest cartridge a guy can have on a std. Remington LA.

There's no replacement for displacement. But you sure can get close

I agree with 280 - it ain't there but close enough. The issue you'll see with 7 mag data is that is has a SAAMI standard of 61KPSI, the 280 60KPSI. Most manuals have 7mm data limited to 59-60KPSI and it doesn't look all that impressive. I think its perfectly safe to go 2 grains above 59-60K psi data in both cartridges, which should gain you about 75-100 ft/sec over the 60K psi stuff. The key is to have pressure tested data to start from. Run from internet data on both................

In a horse race,with everything equal(it never is)the 7 Rem Mag is going to be the fastest because it holds more powder.If you dote on shear velocity,get a 7 mag; if you want the most velocity in a standard action, get the AI.If you don't care about either,get the 280...whatever keeps your gunwales above the highwater mark.

I always figured(still do) that if I have to lug a 24" barrel, I might as well get the Remington Mag.

As others have said, the caveat is "almost". To my way of thinking the difference is pretty acedemic, particularly if using the medium to light-weight bullets in 7mm. Once you go to 160 and up, the mag has the advantage.

The reason I'd never get the mag but would like an Ackley is because everybody has the former but the latter is different. I just like having "off the wall chamberings".

And, honestly and as contradictory as this may sound (because everybody has the ole gov't), I love the '06, which in my opinion does everything the 7 mag could do but better.

I have owned both for over a decade and on average the 7mm Rem Mag rifles will outrun my .280IMP, especially as the bullets get heavier. However, you will never notice the difference other than comparing numbers because long range is long and requires the best of you no matter what and dead deer don't get extra dead. I love my .280IMP because it is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever shot but if I could only have one it would by the 7mmRM because no matter what components and(if need be) ammunition will always be easier to come by since it is our most popular magnum.

I have a 280 AI with 25" barrel and a 7RM with a 23" barrel and they shoot almost exactly the same so far. Main difference is the noise level. The first time I took a shot with the 280 Imp. at a Deer I though I had mistakenly loaded a fire form round, the report was so mild in comparison. The longer barrel and a counter sunk beveled muzzle help. Between these two you have to go to 175 grains to see a difference.

Funny...the Nosler handbook sez 3562 for the 7Mag and 3396 for the 280AI tops way down at 120g.

I'm a big of fan of the AI as anybody but that looks like 150fps to me...

We all have our own results, I suppose.

The 7mag Mickey Coleman fixed me up with goes 7 1/2 pounds loaded with an overweight Zeiss 3-9 on it. Its a pleasure to carry and 70g of powder doesn't exactly kick you into next week.

I like the .30-06

Lots of good gack to debate, but the line about the various 7mm's I remember best was from Jerry Fisher, the famous stockmaker, who for years shot a pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester in 7x57 he stocked himself. Jerry lives in Montana and has hunted a lot, and he says the biggest mistake he ever made was to rechamber and modify the 7x57 to the 7mm Remington Magnum in the mid-1960's, when the 7RM was the "in cartridge." Jerry says all it the 7mm RM does is use more powder, kick harder and make more noise, because it doesn't kill any better than the 7x57....

Pressure for Pressure the Ackley won't get within 200 fps of the
7 Rem mag.

That goes for any 06 based case compared to a belted mag.

I hunted the Imnaha basin in E.Oregon for a number of years with a 280 and
I always envied my buddies 7 mag. He simply had more reach than I did.

Supertrucker,

These days I think more about the rifle I want than the exact cartridge although everything matters.

When I wanted a magnum with less weight and in SS with those 'syn' stocks the Kimber 8400 Montana looked good to me considering those wants.

So I would go for one in 7mm WSM.

Isn't that the real point of a bigger case--a flattened trajectory?

I hunt more often with a 7x57 and 7-08 as they all are killers--but there are places....and there are odds.

If I were prudent and would limit myself to only one seven for any range and hunt, I'd pick the 280 AI hands down...but certainly would miss the others...particularly a 7x57 in a mauser.

But,you can walk into any shop/store and buy 7Mag but you have to make the 280AI.Not everyone reloads.

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=3/&s=148 While spendy, Nosler does load it.

Factory 280 ammo is available in many places and you can run it in the 280AI.

But,you still have the cost of the conversion is also still there.Guess it depends on how much free change you have,.

I understand what you're saying...my "free change" coffer is more empty than it used to be.

I purchased my first 7mm Mag in the early 70's and have used this cal off and on since then and have had one in the safe for the last 30 plus years but when i go hunting it is my 280 Ack or 270 Win i picked up. I believe the 7 mm Mag is a good cal and it gives the man who is hunting with one the illusion he is hunting with one of the mighty Magnums, when in all reality he is hunting with a 30-06 clone because the ballistic are almost equal when you compare bullet weight and vel. If you like the 7mm Mag then by all means use it. Myself give me the 280 Ack or 270 Win . My next 7mm will be 7x57 if i decide to build another. By the way i rebarreled my 7mm Mag to 25 STW.

Kimber New Products

Did not realize it--picked it up off another thread--good for the 280 AI

My 30-06 will do right at 3000fps w/ 150's

My 7RM will push 140's to 3325fps easy

Doesn't seem quite the same to me.....but maybe I'm just ignorant.

Brett

BTW same 7mag will push 154IB's to 3230fps via R25

Use the same barrel length with the 06 and 7 Mag and the difference isn't worth arguing over.

That's not what I've found...but I guess results will vary


Brett

From the standpoint of effect on game,the two are similar,which makes sense because they are comparable cartridges.

But the 7 mag is faster than the 30/06,and shoots flatter; it was designed to be,and always will be,because it holds more powder.The 280 AI is the one that I never "got",or understood...still don't.

That is because you are a 270 slut. You might as well admit it.

The market is closed today, so here is a perspective...

The 280AI is to us uh..."seasoned" 7mm sluts what the 280 could have been if it had been loaded to the gills right from the get-go just like the 270 was.

I think the best thing "they" could do is let the 280 die a well-deserved death and factory chamber the AI in its place as the standard non-magnum 7mm.

God bless Kimber. God bless Nosler.

It would save us from being subjected to reading that same Remington 740 Auto story in every 280 article forevermore as well. If you want a kinder gentler 7mm you have the 7-08 which already pushes some of the 280 factory round speeds I have chronographed. Sad.

If there is such a thing as a sweet spot, there it is in the 7mm as the 280 case plus 4 grains loaded to 270 pressures.

I haven't got my hands on the original S&H 7x61 case (not the super) but I'll bet it is close to the AI's capacity and we all know the 7mmSAUM is. Good reason--it is a good place to be.

If you think I am a velocity crazy, think of it this way. What if "they" by some inane logic, decided the 270 should run at lower pressure?

270 sluts would be baying like a pack of hounds.

FWIW Bobbin, I think the trajectory advantage of larger cases will continue to be overlooked as long as we have smaller cases loaded to higher pressures in the same caliber, and guys continue to equate the cartridge diameter with killing performance rather than bullet design.

I haven't checked any factory loaded 270s in a while, but a few years ago it was not uncommon to get speeds in the 2700-2850 fps range with 130 grain factory loads, including the major manufacturers.

Bob,

I've owned/shot the 280 AI and RCBS since the mid 70's, that said,

I have never read so much BS on a thread about the round.

I've come to the conclusion if you want an AI version of the 280 go buy a 270 Win.

Really? I thought that honor was only for the 280 and 7x57...:)

I've only clocked Federal in the 270 and they pretty much were on the money.

Call a lil shop called Jarrett Rifles.......ask for Kenny.

The .280 Remington and the 7MM Remington Mag. are great cartridges, In fact they are almost as good as the 30-06.

Yep, Kenny gets it and so do thousands of others like myself. What's not to like about sending 140's down range at 3200 fps, great case life, 4 in the belly and just plain coooool looking.

Someone said the 280AI was the finest case a guy could put in a std LA Remington.

Brilliant guy......grin

Brilliant maybe.......but under schooled as well...

As for KJ's work, ahh I'll pass thx

Dober

Mighty glad to see you guys on this thread...was afraid the dark side had taken control...:)

I have both a 280 Imp and a 7 Mag.

I had the 280 Imp built a number of years ago because I liked the 7 Mag so well.

The 280 has a Krieger and the 7 Mag has a Hart.

Shooting a 140 grain bullet you will get the same velocity with the 280 Imp using 10 grains less powder.

If you are going the 7mm Rem Mag route instead of the 280 Ack then you might as well chamber your rifle for the 7MM STW and then you will see some improvement over the 280 Ack because the 7mm Rem Mag just doesn't have that much for the greater amount of powder it requires.

Not underschooled either, I don`t have a Jarrett......grin

he`d be a better splainer than me on the subject.

My Borden and Scott collection will suffice.......say least.

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner........ grin

Ain't that the beauty of running a smaller case at higher pressure...:)

Jarrett has NOTHING on Borden that's for sure. I should have said Kenny did more to pimp/popularize the 280 AI than probably anyone else. And of course the gunrags did much to pimp his rifles back in the 80's. Lots of talented gunsmiths out there making SS synthetics on custom actions for much less than Jarrett cult members dole out.

If you're getting equal velocities from the .280AI and 7RM with equal pressures and equal length tubes, I'd blame the difference in velocity on the tubes, not the cartridges.

I have two 280AI's and two 7RM's. The AI's have 24" Krieger barrels and were chambered with the same reamer. Each get 2950fps or so with 160gr bullets without torturing my guns or cases. The 7RM are different. One is a stock Remington M700 it gets almost the same velocity as the AI's, even when I lean hard on the powder measure. The other 7RM has a 26" Hart barrel and with the same loads as the Remington gets almost 3100fps. with the 160gr. bullets. I have killed bull elk with each rifle. If there is some differance in killing power I never saw it. I seldom hunt with the 7RM's anymore because the Hart barreled rifle, while a very accurate gun weighs almost 10lbs all up and I loaned the Remington to a son-in-law which likely means I'll never see it again. No matter because the 280AI's are just what the doctor ordered for a hard core gun crazy like me. Just like many of you the 280AI's allow me to obsess over things that really don't matter. If it was just about getting the job done, I'd use a 30.06 and be done with it.

Funny how the answers are all over the place.

My 24" tube 7mm rem mag spits 140 partitons at 3350 fps. Kenny told me the 7STW wouldn't do any faster so don't send it to have him rechamber it. This was about 1985-87 when the STW was new, and Kenny was the only guy I found that would rechamber my 7mag, everyone else wanted to set the barrel back or sell me a new barrel.

Anyone have a 280 AI do the same with a 24" tube?

I see all the attitude about your choice being better or as good, but haven't seen any chronograph #'s for the ackley to make me sell my 7 mag... or my 7mm express rem, or my 7x57...or....7 int-r, 7tcu......

Allen

No as a matter of fact.

I owned two differ 280 AI's and could never get past 3,150 with a 140.

The 7 mag did get 3,350.

Like what was said before, pressure for pressure, there is not an 06 based case that can get within 200 fps of a magnum case.

SU: I have a #2 Kreiger in the safe.Should I barrel up to 280AI and find out what all the fuss is about?

I guess the question of the day then is: Would you carry a 6 lb, scoped 7 mag over a 6 lb scoped 280AI for the 200 fps difference?

And, they shoot the AI in a 26 inch barrel while the 7mag is in a 24. Go figure.

For that one spot in Kansas I watched last year for Godzilla, yeah I sure would.

Everywhere else --nope.

Gotta use a 26" barrel on the AI, to burn that extra 5 grains of powder loaded over the standard .280....

Now that is a good question.

No, I personally don't pack magnum contour barrels anymore.

I have those .65 contours turned down to .57.

All jocularity aside, personally speaking: I would not put a 7 mag in a six pound all up rifle were I having one built...

The RI I have is 6# all up. Its a 280 24" and if I did it again it would be an AI, because you no longer have to monkey around forming brass--you can buy it from Nosler. You pick up 50fps for nothing.

That and the M-70 7mag at 7.5 all up give me about the same level of abuse and that is plenty for me in rifles I like to shoot frequently.

The contours on both are similar at .610-625 respectively, both 24"

Redundant ain't it?

If I was to venture a guess, your 2 280AI`s were factory rechambers, and the 7 Mag a custom tube. How close is the old man?

Really and what would that velocity be?

LOL! I can appreciate that.

Actually all 3 tubes were made by Paul Marquart. The 280's were
.550's with the 7 going .580.

I dug a lot of flagstone out of the ground to pay for those things! $10.00 a ton.

With my rifles the 280 is in a longer faster barrel than the 7RM which is about shot. So I would give the RM 50-150fps advantage with equal barrels and pressures..

What loads do you use to get 3,350 with the 140s in the RM? I stopped at 3200 which is where I am at with the 280 Imp. though at higher pressures probably.

Gun- 7mm rem mag, purchased when Remington sold barreled actions probably 1985. Came in as an ADL.

Not sure on brass used, will check tonight. 74.5 grains IMR 7828. Load developed in ~1986 using nosler partition seconds with the groove cut around the waste. Supposably they were over-runs from maybe Weatherby? Purchased directly thru their Gal that answered the phone.

I backed down to 74.0 for hunting, as the 74.5 was a little much for 100 degree days, and I figured the 25 fps less would be safer in the field. I fired the 74.5 in one case, reloaded 5 times w/o any signs of loose primer pocket or web stretching.

Allen

139 Gr Hornady 71.4 Gr of H4831 MV 3400 fps look it up in Hornady Vol II. It gets there and I don't see any 280AI going there.

Someone on here should take a brand new barrel of 24";chamber to 280AI,do the load work up and chronographing.Then rechamber the same barrel to 7RM and go through the drill again. Hopefully they would have an Oehler ballistic lab or something to measure pressures.

The reasons you see so many different results from these two cartridges,sometimes close and sometimes far apart,can only be related to barrels and pressures.If I were guessing, I still say the the cartridge with the most capacity still wins,if all things are equal.Can't logically be any other way.

logic... LOGIC?? What the hell is THAT?!

Bingo..........

I have no experience with the 280 AI, (would like to have one in the Kimber Montana), but I would like to comment on the 7mm rem mag and 270. I am with boston, in regards to 270 velocities. I had two 270's, one with a 22" bl, one 24", I chronograghed 130 gr loads from Federal, Hornady LM, and Remington, and none of them were as fast as the factories advertised in either gun. My history with the mighty 270 lasted less than one year.
As for the 7 rm, bea175 says its a clone of the 30-06 with 150 gr factory loads I would tend to agree, acutual with 150gr factory loads I would choose the 30-06. But, when the 7mm is handloaded to its potential, here's what I have found. With over maximum (overmax) advertised loads of RL22, (but safe loads in my guns) here are my results: these loads were chrongraphed in a factory Rem 700 24" bl, ruger no 1b 26" bl, and a rem 700 action with a custom 23" bl. With the same 140gr bullet load vel averaged from 3325fps-3375fps between the 3 guns. I am currently shooting a 150 gr laod with rl 22 that averages 3300 fps in the custom gun. A 270 or 30-06 can't compare to that IMO, and yes these are over maximum listed charges, but it is what it is.

From another post I made the other day:




For all that headache I want something that can do more, not less.

I'd rather just shoot the 280 Remington and go on holding my head down when the boyz with the 7mmRMs came around!!

Plus ... trigger time. That alone has some worthwhile merit.

Is the 280AI loaded to the same pressures as the 270Win or 280Rem???

I'd be pretty much inclined to agree with the above except that I can't be down on the 270 for a lack of performance. I've been loading the cartridge since, I think about 1972 in too many rifles to count anymore,and routinely get about 3100 with a 130 gr bullet;some rifles and loads have given close to 3200.

You can play with ballistic charts all you want,but no 30/06 load can shoot as flat to 400 yards as a 270,although possibly the brand new 130 mono's from an 06 may do as well;but that's just one load with one bullet.

Since the 270 has a history and track record on big game that the others are gagging to catch up with (maybe the 7 mag is close today),I would suggest that if you think a jump to the 280AI is gonna make your life simple,you're mistaken.

Except when I have deliberately built 270's and 7 RM's with over-sized groove diameter barrels,I have generally not had to exceed published data to get the velocities I have posted,from either the 270 or the 7 RM.

I think the above posters velocities from the 7 RM are a tad higher than I have encountered with the 7 RM; I generally settle on 3250 or so with a 140;routinely get about 3180 with the 150,and a bit under 3100 with a 160;and I am not fire walled with any of these loads from a 7 RM.The AI seems to max out at 3050 with a 150.Why bother,from the same barrel and action length?BTW all shoot flatter to 500 than anything you force down the barrel of any 30/06.

It's pretty apparent that there is little to choose between these cartridges and the reason I am not all in a lather over the 280 AI is not because it's not "good";mostly because it is not popular(never will be),brass is hard to get,and its' ballistics are easily duplicated by commonly available cartridges that I can get at WalMart, or about anywhere I typically hunt big game.

The 280 AI is kind of like mammary glands on a bull;udderly worthless,but interesting to speculate upon.....

The '06 still can't catch up in trajectory if you compare apples to apples- compare the 130gr from the '06 to the 100-110gr from the .270.

Jordan: You are likely correct....there is not enough time to play with all of these bullets and cartridges

overmax
The 7 Remington Magnum is the LAST cartridge (other than the 243) that I would run at velocities exceeding loading manual maximums. The loading companies have found that the 7 RM pressures for a given load will have a wider range than most cartridges.
In other words, if the 7 RM is loaded to 60,000 PSI, the maximum pressure that load will generate will be higher than say, a 30/06 loaded to 60,000PSI. Therefore, loads for the 7 RM are held to a lower average pressure.
I can never understand why someone will sing the praises of a ceratin cartridge and then use over maximum loads for that cartridge to demonstate it's excellence. If the cartridge is so damned good, why do you have to run it so hot? Why not just go up to a 7 Dakota or a 7 Weatherby?

Royce

Royce
I am not singing praises, but simply sharing my results, I made a point to state that I was using higher than recommended powder charges because I did not want to mislead anyone into thinking I got those velocities from standard loads. I run it so damned hot for the same reason people drive sports cars, because I want to. I don't want a Dakota or Weatherby because it takes more powder to get the same velocities. Furthermore loading manuels are meant to be lawyer proof, my rifles show no sign of pressure....

I would like to also note that I mentioned in a previous post that all the 270 factory loads I chronographed were below factory advertised, I have also chronographed several 7mm mag factory loads that were also much lower than factory advertised, some 200 fps slower than advertised.

overmax
And where did you get the information that loading manuals were meant to be "lawyer safe", other than hearing other people saying it?

Royce
I got it from a service rep at IMR, but he is probably not very intelligent like me and you

Its been my experience that the 280AI does an excellent job of making things in the bullet path DOA. It has also been my experience that the same results can be achieved with the 7MM Rem Mag. But every friggin 7 Mag I have ever shot killed on both ends. Thats enuf to steer me clear of the belted mag mentioned here. Besides a 140NAB from a 280AI with certain loading is hell on anything deer sized up to 500 yds.

For a minute there, I thought you were describing the Kimber 7 WSM

Ah, who needs another 200fps anyway.......

My 7 RM pushes 140's along @ 3408 fps average for 5 shots. That is quite a bit more than 100 fps over the 280 Remington.

Are you using rifle powder or C4 to get those velocities........

maybe C4 and a 30" tube lol...or he misread the caliber. He must have a 7STW or 7RUM.

Even though I have my preferences, I'd be happier than a pig in "you know what" to hunt with any of them (280,280AI, or 7 Rem Mag).

LOL, I notice that it's the .280AI advocates that are calling BS on Reloader28's data. Is there a wee bit of jealousy going on? After-all, the .280AI can almost match the 7RM. Everybody knows that!

Jordan: Pour the coal to any of them and they'll all go a notch over their respective velocity level. Last 280 I messed with clicked at 3150 for a 140....by accident ...and from a 22" barrel. I backed it off.....

I think you call that a 280AI,no?

I can tell you that "jealousy" had nothing to do with the comment I made. I was suggesting that at those velocites you are probably running high pressure as well. I have no reason to doubt that he couldn't reach those numbers. I'm sure if I became jealous enough, I could run my Ackley up to 3300 fps with 140's, but I'm not that mad at it yet.

No worries, RDFinn, I was just ribbin' ya a little bit! I was playing off of the common sentiment around here lately that the .280AI is the near equal of the 7RM with less powder burned

I'm used to taking some ribbing as I spend to much time on the optics forum. At least you guys enter logic into the equation............grin

Professional Fire Fueler here. I like the 280AI just fine for what i do with it. 140NAB at 3206 from a 24 3/4" tube with a charge of 63.3grns VV N165 and itty bitty groups suits the dickens outta me. And my shoulder lives to shoot another day.

If someone wants to tell me that those NAB's launched at 3400 make that much of a difference as a whitetail killing machine I'll have to get my chest waders out.

I'll ask again in case my the last time it got lost in confusion:

Is the 280AI loaded to the same pressures as the 270Win or 280Rem???

Just curious ... non-of my manuals tell me ....

RD: Makes no difference at all.....now if they start below 3000?Well that's a different story!

Nope, not with whitetail. It just makes a difference with elk and moose when the distance is stretched out there

You know, I have had about enough of these people on here always contradicting my posts. I have always been respective of others opinions here and accepted them at face value. Am I simple minded? No. I speak truth to all and make it personal policy never to lie to anyone. So I don't expect others to lie to me. That is one of the directives of the 10 Commandments which I take seriously along with the rest of The Word of God.

I reckon this board is not worth my effort anymore. I came here and persevered to try to learn from you guys and it seems all I get is ridiculed. I quit hanging out with those type folks in Junior High.

To those who have been good to me, namely BobinNH along with a few others, I thank you. Jordan Smith, I enjoyed our discussions.


Reloder28 out.

Reloader28,

Don't let them get to you. Sure there are a couple of vocal cynics, but the great majority who read your posts take them at face value, I assure you.

I also enjoy our discussions, and I'm sure there will be many more to come

I'm not contradicting you...you may indeed get that. But it's a heap faster than "normal" even by my standards, of which I've been accused of playing fast and loose with loading data. But still, I said each will out do it's less capacity cousin by 100 fps...and I guess I shouls have said "give or take". I can run 139s at 3150, and 140s at 3100 from the 280Rem. I expect 3200 or better would be doable in the AI. You run yours how you want to.