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Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better. It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously. I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an 8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up on the end as shown in picture above works great. I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock. Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug, 135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed
Ed Hubel
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28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space, they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth 28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.
Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength. One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209 CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED 209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal, and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent. I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also) we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot, Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc. Hope this helps.....ED
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun. It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil barrel ring I added so forearm stays put. It has internal brake on barrel that I picture earlier in thread with the porting holes. Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups, and many folks have good accuracy with them, even in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy design. These are the ones you cast your own. And there are guys casting some for sale. You see two in wadcups on the right. On the left is my prototype of the Lyman style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed
Ed Hubel
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The picture is some aluminum cored jacketed slugs RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730" diameter, hollowpoint, and one I filled nose with glue gun. Fairly streamlined. 3600 in the Savage with our long case..Slug is nice and long, 1.22" HP and 1.4" with plastic I put in the nose. In Nef with RMC 3.5" brass case 2700, 3.5" plastic 2500. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed you have me wondering if my 28GA Ruger Red Label could be an elk gun for Washington's shotgun only zones, or wondering if I could learn how to regulate a 12GA S/S for the same purpose.
Thanks again for all the fun info.
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.
WHO IS JOHN GALT? LIBERTY!
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I'd try the Ruger.And try the Lyman slug I mentioned. Stay with light loads as barrel isn't as heavy as NEF. But regulating is problem in both OU and SxS. But a 12ga Ultra Rifled slug gun don't cost much and it can handle real hairy factory loads or hairy reloads.
RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And I just tested some variety of ones myself. Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads. Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer, with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.
These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.
1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" cards and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs. This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.
Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example, with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25 as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case. A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.
On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting. It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores. Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber for the brass case. Good hunting loads would be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is a double projectile load that would make a good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal. Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A 515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my 10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them. The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from him and he is in court to get it back. He is in the right and if you folks show up there it will help. And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.
Ed Hubel
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Couple of questions:
1. What is the AR site or forum?
2. Have you done any work to maximize performance in a standard Rem. 870 3-3.5 in. chamber?
�When in doubt, I whip it out.� Uncle Ted
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AR is accuratereloading.com and its big bore forum. For 3.5" 870, using 600gr slugs with 77gr 4227. For 3" use 72gr 4227. Maybe a little more if you can get heavy alloy barrel with muzzles about one inch. Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put together to show how heavy of powder seal and heavy cushion base that is needed. That eliminates the blowouts and damage that was happening to sabots unless I put a card under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit target straight. Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 02/03/09.
Ed Hubel
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Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases turned smaller, where the extra short basecup is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the diameter that it chambers ok and regular case doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber. This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup, but they have the step formed in them to match the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the basecup. Examining them they do expand much more than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did expanded .005" in one shot. I will use heavier built REMs as they are 70cents primed and good for 4-5 shots, no resizing, with hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed
Ed Hubel
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I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512" slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes. Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again. Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with 2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Before it got cold again got little more testing done. I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square, behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore. It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard. I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87 smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my 87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech, so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug, for fairly accurate load.....Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a 50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed
Ed Hubel
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The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They can be bored out and fitted to anything. I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.
Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and 10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds. A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in 10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.
Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed
Ed Hubel
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The three slug loads tested above are real light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are light for the bore size. Here is picture of the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup, second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the 12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup loses its petals going out the barrel, but hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with 2" wood between them. Fired from our long case in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel. In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged. Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in, it is on Gunbroker..Ed
Ed Hubel
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Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of 29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24 porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock, it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked. First one didn't break as such, just got crack on the side where there was couple knots. Along with weight and heavy barrel, handles recoil great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage 112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo outline, and added full height thick pad.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs. Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns. One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber. He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed
Ed Hubel
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