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I see that you just spout off stuff without any basis. If you want to call a person a freerider and an undesirable, you should have a reason. You have about as much reason for that as you do any of the other stupid stuff that you have been saying here. You are an idiot and every post that you put up heres proves it more. You started by saying that ever Vietnam veteran would suppot kerry. I called BS. You then said that every Vietnam vetran that had US in front of his serial number would vote for kerry. I called BS again. You then called me a freerider and an undesirable and you will not explain yourself. Not that I owe you anything but "I" am a Vietnam vet with US in front of his serial number (July 68-July 69) and "I" am solidly behind out commander President Bush. Every vet that I know feels the same way. miles

"Not that I owe you anything but "I" am a Vietnam vet with US in front of his serial number (July 68-July 69) and "I" am solidly behind out commander President Bush. Every vet that I know feels the same way."





My good friend miles if that's the case, you just met a vet that does not support Junior Bush. And your absolutely right you need not justify to any man your reasoning behind why you are. At the same time please make it clear you speak for no one other than yourself.

I have never tried to speak for anyone else. That was you. I am glad to know that we do not see eye to eye. I would hate to think that I am that irrational. miles

Steve_No
Fighting Communists is not the same thing as fighting Communism.

Fighting Terrorism is not the same thing as fighting Terrorists.

In America today we are seeing Terrorists behaind every tree, just as we saw Communists behind every tree in the Twentieth Century.

We were living in fear and willing to give up civil rights to "fight Communism" in earlier times. Now we are living in fear and giving up civil rights to "fight Terrorism".

Let me say again that there is a big difference between fighting the "ist" and the "ism".

Haggis--you lost me, man. How, precisely does one fight communism unless one fights communists? An ideology only exists through its believers. You fight the idea by fighting those who are seeking to impose it on others by violence.

Steve_No
Then following your logic, those who oppose the "idea" of reelecting G.W. Bush should react towards those who support the "idea" of reelecting G.W. Bush with "violence"?

One cannot, in reality, fight an idea or theory, one can only object to it, oppose it, or disprove it.

Over 150 years ago a preacher named H. W. Beecher said something to the effect of, "For every 100 people chopping at the branches of evil, there is one chopping at it's roots."

To kill a theory one does not kill its believers one kills the theory by disproving it. The believers are left with nothing in which to place their beliefs and must reevaluate their thinking.

That's one of those ethereal lofty sounding phrases that often prove to be empty rhetoric in the real world. To the hungry, uneducated masses of the third world, a full belly and an AK-47 will make anyone a believer in the dogma of the day.

The real proof would be to apply what you said to that friggin Larry Martin, right here in this forum. Let's see you work your magic.

When the believers are expressing their "beliefs" by murdering others, one unconvinces them by killing them or otherwise preventing future violence.
That is why your analogy to an American election makes no sense. We argue, we vote, and that's it---unless of course you're a Palm Beach Democrat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

larrymartin



A neighbor was in my home before the last election and stated his dad, a veteran of D Day, was supporting Gore simply because he was in the service and was in Vietnam. McCain, Nagel, both Kerry's (murderers of civilians as alleged by many) and Cleland, seem to stick together even to the point of ignoring the truths about one another's voting records and beliefs. I stay confused about this bond. I will not defend my own children, my best friend, or anyone else if they are wrong.

Some of the absolutely worst human beings on the face of the earth served in the services for the USA in Vietnam. Based on what I just said, you and these others would support them over Bush. I simply do not understand your thoughts on loyalty. I have known fighter pilots, B52 pilots, Rangers, grunts, tank commanders, tunnel rats, intelligence officers, prisoners of war, and people are people are people are people..... Whether they were in Vietnam or Korea or WW II seemed to make no difference as to before or after as to their character.

Again, I submit that after a certain year in Nam, most did not serve their country out of loyalty to America but out of fear of social shame and ostracization, fear of a military prison, or simply to protect the buddies that they were fighting with, or some hope that our govt. might actually fully support the cause 100% and win the thing.

Dang, I knew so many despicable pukes from the army that it gives me the shivers thinking about them, and you think that I would vote for one of these pukes?

Kerry enlisted in the navy-odds of combat were dang low. He gets bored and does volunteer light duty in lightly populated VC area. He gets scratches, gives himself his own Hearts and vacates the country because of the scratches, his own medal-shooting a fleeing boy in the back-He kills innocent civilians along with the other Kerry-the one on the 9/11 Commission who does not deserve the right to question anyone on morals in this country. Both of these guys were "old men" age wise in terms of comparing maturity levels to the typical vet and really had no moral rights taking out civilians as they allegedly did. The facts are pretty well documented on both of them.

You sometimes make excellent points but to support someone just because they were in the same war, I simply do not understand and as I said, you are not the only one who thinks like this. Most of the Nazis and so many of the Germans and Japanese from WW II still try to justify their fighting as they did and it was just pure evil what they did. Our cause in Vietnam was not evil but supporting a fellow vet just because he was there is like voting for a former Waffen SS who murdered hundreds of Ukranians for the prime minister position in Germany just because you fought in WW II with him.

You are right about the M 16 from the early years.

Just give us better reasons for Kerry over Bush other than 3 Hearts and run v Air National Guard in a notoriously dangerous jet fighter that crashed and killed many while GW was flying them.

Good post Slasher. Also remember that Kerry had a lot of years in Congress that he could have used to make a difference and he failed. miles

Slasher,

You've raised some good points and I'll probably not cover all of them . First and foremost I happen to believe veterans of World War II and Korea did not openly support the Vietnam veterans until after 76. for whatever reasons, not to mention our country as a whole. The fact that Jimmy Carter Mr. Do- Gooder could make pardoning the draft dodgers a public campaign promise prior to the election in 75 only goes to prove my points. With that said and not that it matters, I discussed or consulted my older brother about my position to get his opinion on the matter. he clearly did not see my position supporting Mr Kerry as being disloyal to my fellow veterans. Therefore being of free spirit will support Mr. Kerry over Junior Bush in the upcoming election if there?s no other alternatives.

One of my older sister's that's now a retired public school teacher openly protested the Vietnam war in DC around 68/69 with her husband who?s a Navy veteran of Vietnam. That was before I was drafted.

I am sick of those of ignorance constantly shaming veterans of Vietnam to the point queries, homosexuals and undesirables have more support in this country than we do.

"Also remember that Kerry had a lot of years in Congress that he could have used to make a difference and he failed."



Please explain why thirty-five years after the fact, the M-16 is still in-service? It is outrageous that Junior Bush started a war with known inferior equipment. Where is the loyalty to his fellow humans?

"When the believers are expressing their "beliefs" by murdering others, one unconvinces them by killing them or otherwise preventing future violence."

Steve my good friend, are not innocent victims being murdered in Iraq today by an overwhelming force out of their control and beliefs?

larrymartin

Vietnam vets have been held in exraordinarily high esteem for about 20 years now. Even Hollywood, a bastion of the very liberal antiwar types who mistreated our vets, helped with some of their movies.

Slasher,

"Vietnam vets have been held in exraordinarily high esteem for about 20 years now. Even Hollywood, a bastion of the very liberal antiwar types who mistreated our vets, helped with some of their movies."



I'll agree that in some circles the Vietnam veterans are held in high esteem, however these people nowhere near take-up any kind of majority. The fact is a very large majority of those of that era working in the news media and other areas of influence today were draft dodgers in one form or another. Of all the Hollywood movies I've seen a movie called (The Deer Hunter) it is closest to reality of those times than any other. Thousands of untold stories have never been heard. Most people have a view that anyone that had been drafted during those times where from the lower segment of our society. (the unfortunate) I've never heard their stories represented in any movie. During those times Junior Bush definitely was not one of the unfortunate that I served with and not like myself that had a family back home to help put their lives back together when they return home. Recently on one of the conservative talk shows (Shaw Handy) played at April Fools joke, and part of the joke was how he kicked a homeless person coming to work. I think if I ever personally met this ass hole we would have a discussion about how sure he was it wasn't a Vietnam veteran he had been kicking.

Larry, I believe that you are just plain crazy. This will be my last correspondence with you. miles

"Larry, I believe that you are just plain crazy. This will be my last correspondence with you."



Miles, my good friend! These days watching all news coverage about Jr. Bush's war and then listening to what he knew prior to 911 does tend to make a person crazy. Especially, considering how it (the war) compares to Vietnam. I truly find it amazing another (drafted vet.) could support this commander-in-chief. It's one thing for some of the older Vietnam veterans to dislike Mr. Kerry for his public protest, but these guys would have no more respect for Junior Bush either. And to come out and publicly denounces another proven Vietnam veteran to support someone that was basically a draft dodger during those times, in my opinion is not somebody I want to serve with, maybe the term(undesirable) does apply to you and them!



BTW, you've never answered my question about why Jr. Bush knowingly send guys into combat with a piece of junk the M-16 ?





As to not corresponding anymore ,don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

One more thing, rest assure any veteran that served prior to 68 in Vietnam. When push comes to shove deciding or listening to another vet, those enlisted veterans will stand publicly (support) with a draftee every time without a shadow of a doubt.

"When the believers are expressing their "beliefs" by murdering others, one unconvinces them by killing them or otherwise preventing future violence."

, are not innocent victims being murdered in Iraq today by an overwhelming force out of their control and beliefs?

Hey Steve, you did not answer my question!

Ever notice how, more and more, you're really just talking with yourself? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />