Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Why did the .243 outsell and eventually almost obsolete the 257 Roberts?

Not sure, but it looks like it might have come from Phil Sharpe's book.

Jeff

actually, it did happen...
in 1970, there was not a single rifle production chambered for the .257 robts.
lyman's 45th edition listed the roberts in the back of the book, in the obsolete cartridge section... it was a had-been, done-for cartridge...

and along came bill.....

Old guys eyes, ULA/NULA vs UAL of course.
And you pickin' on a 260REM guy.

Estacado

Wildcat Cartridges by Richard Simmons, 1947

Bruce

Friends,

I was there when all this went down, and from the point of view of the hunters in my extended family the cartridges under .30 were just not important. I knew one kid in the 50s who shot a .257 Remington Roberts one of his older brothers owned and another kids dad had a .250-3000, but everyone in my family shot either .30-30, .300 Savage, .30-40 Krag, or .30-'06. One uncle did have a .300 H&H. I remember Warren Page writing about those "mouse guns", but by then all of us post WWII youngsters were in the military. When we got out and came home (mostly in the 60s) there were .243s everywhere and pretty much not a .257 anywhere.

Our varmints were rats at the dump at night, and we shot .22LR with flashlights.

I remember the .243 vs. 244 and later 6mm Rem articles, and the hot setup was to get a 6mm Rem, and run Win .257R brass necked down in it because you could get more powder in the case and higher velocity numbers, at least it said so in G&A. Nobody had chronographs either.

jim

I think the main reason the Bob got creamed by the .243 was the the main .257 load was the 117 RN bullet seated very deep while the .243 had sexy looking spitzers. All the gunwriters of the day lamented for a 3" .257 Roberts, while the .243 was said to give the goods in a short action. To average joe factory load shooter who wanted to buy a factory rifle, the .243 probably just looked a lot better. Whether this is reality or perception is now history. I personally like and own both. I have much less experiences with the .257 Roberts, than the .243 Win, but from what I have seen put them in the same class which is a bit behind the .270/.280/.308/.30-06 for deer/medium sized game.

Lou

The Roberts was the victim of poor timing....all the way around.

Introduced in 1934, the Roberts was just a few years behind a 1925 round called the....270 Winchester. Just a few years later, in 1939, Outdoor Life hired a writer by the name of O'Connor who was in love with the .270. The rest is history. The .270 became the darling of those wanting a bolt action rifle (still not that popular in the 40's) and the .257 was almost forgotten or passed over for the superior .270

This was also a time when the average shooter bought just one rifle as money was tight early on and the majority of the hunting population was at war through most of the 40's.

By the 1950's the country was experiencing the biggest ecognomic boom in history. Most had money to spend and the "baby boomers" were reaching the age to buy. The 50's were also a time when technology was rapidly changing and everyone wanted the latest and greatest instead of the proven tools of a former generation.

In 1955 the .243 was introduced and Field & Stream editor Warren Page was it's champion. The .243 was new and also based on the "latest and greatest" .308 Winchester. Shooters had money and were largely young and new to shooting. There were very few gun magazines available at the time. With O'Connor (Outdoor Life) selling the larger .270 and Page (F&S) pushing the smaller .243.....the .257 never had a chance.

Had the .270 not come along until the 50's giving the Roberts a head start, or the .257 been introduced after, not before, the .243.....it might have been different. IF Jack O'Conner not been such a fan of the .270 or been a poorer writer and if Page and Fred Huntington not developed the .243 at just the right time.....

Lots of ifs, but the .257 was doomed, not because it was a poor round, but by poor timing.

It all comes down to marketing, and "New and Improved", and the American public's desire to have whatever is new and improved.

I shot my .270s for years until increasing age and joint difficulty (pain) caused lack of enjoyment at the range. I just couldn't see shooting 10 rounds, and hurting for 3 days.

Soooo...I bought a 257 Roberts. In retrospect, I could have bought a .243, and probably never looked back, but I seldom shoot factory rounds in my rifles.

My son-in-law's father uses a 6mm (.243 equivalent)to hunt Elk, and has filled his tag every year. One year, I saw how he does it. He shoots them a LOT, till those little 100 gr. bullets finally reach something vital.

If I had it to do all over again, I side with Jim Charmichael, who created the predecessor of the .260 Remington as an
alternative competition caliber, when he developed an incurable flinch using his .30 caliber target rifle.

The 6.5 X 55mm Swedish or .260 Remington will shoot 120 gr bullets faster than the Roberts, and as a bonus, can shoot 140 gr. and heavier just fine. The Scandinavians have used the round for Elk(our moose)for decades.

But, I guess I will just continue to shoot my Roberts, and enjoy it. It is an extremely adequate rifle for my needs.

I have seen that comment that the .260 is the "better bob" and a gun with a .264 caliber 1-9 twisted rifle capable of shooting 140 grain bullets has it all over a .243 shooting 100's and a .257 shooting 100's.

I seem to be conscious that the .260 shooting a 125 grain partition at 3000 FPS is like..well its almost like a .270 shooting a 130 grain partition at 3000 FPS! The 260 is just so close to the .270 win that I already own, that its beginning to look a lot like splitting hairs!

I have owned a 243 win since 1974.
The 1st few deer I shot with it quickly pointed out the need for a better bullet than the factory stuff. I got into loading and stuffed my 243 with 95 gr Partitions. It is a wicked deadly combo when used within sane limits. Whatever I poke with it just drops or jumps a few times and piles up.
I also use it to practice with 75 grain Sierra's and taken a few varmints with that combo as well.
Broke in a few noobs with it too. Just a nice versatile little rifle that does the job fine if you do yours.

Huntsman good point regarding what bullets people use. I guess Warren Page shot everything from Aardvarks to Zebra's with the .243 elevating it to legend status, thus making the .257 mostly a reloaders and gun cranks cartridge!

The .243 was heavily marketed, and everyone made rifles for it. For me, the .243 didnt kill the Roberts, the .25-06 did.

ABSOFLAMINGLOUTELY!! Thank you for the compliment! But...you forgot rifle loony...a minor omission, though, and easily forgiven.

There are a couple of us 24 hr. bloggers (HunterJim for one) that were around back then and I'm sure that I am one of them..I think I was around when the 30-30 came about at least I feel like it sometimes!

It was in the mid 50s as I recall, and most of us were avid wildcatters, the factories hadn't come out with anything new in years and most of us were board and ready for something new. We had all read everything that the gun scribes put out, Warren Page, Phil Sharpe and others wrote worlds of hype and we swallowed it hook, line and sinker. After all we had all been shooting the 250 and 257 Robts. for ions...The 6mm was touted as the second coming and we all were tearing down the doors at Geneva Loan in El Paso, Texas to get one. I got the first one.

After I got one, Jack O'Connor told me I was a lost child and nuts to boot!! as usual he was right because after shooting a dozen or so deer with it I realized it had absolutly nothing over the .250 or 257 and in fact it was not as good..Such disapointment I have seldom known! alas it went down the road to be replaced by a pre 74 M-70 in my old favorite, the 257 Robts, with a 06 follower, seating the bullet out and pushing the tried and true .270...Salvation had come about!

Since that dower day I have been hyped many times by the powers of sales for new products, but after 74 years I am hardened to the core on new stuff, just like all of you will be in 60 or so years!! but it was one a hell of a trip! and I wouldn't want any of you to be denied such a trip.

grinning....

and I thought you dinos were just stubborn....:)

Why did the .243 outsell and eventually almost obsolete the 257 Roberts?

1. Few chronographs owned by gun writers in the 1950's.

2. No M70 Featherweight 257's.



Bruce

Ray,
If that 257 has worked its way out of your rotation, my wife is looking for one of those to buy for my birthday present!

I have three 257s (and no 243s - sold them all) so I am quite opinionated on the matter. the 257 are older and not loaded quite as hot as the more modern 243 so it's factory performance is a bit more impressive. the 257 is a bit long for some "short" actions, especially with heavier bullets so that does not help it either. also, most 257s are built on long actions so why not just go with the 25-06? still, my 257s are on short win 70 actions and they are dandys. if the 257 had been built on the 243 case (wilcat known as the 25 souper), it would do much better. I still think there is an excellent market for a 257-308 but it's not likely to be offered anytime soon. it could possible be the best "youth" whitetail cartridge yet! my kids shoot the little 250-3000 and it is a deer killer for sure at a chug along pace of 2650 fps factory fodder with 10 gr pills.

Ray, thanks for sharing that story, the hype, the excitement, and then the let down!

and talk about a "twist" to a long story Hodgdon is pushing a .257 115 grain NP to 3049 with their hybrid 100V powder, pretty amazing stuff..