Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Perfecting a CRF feed

The thread about CRF vs Push Feed might have covered this, but in an attempt to condense some information, what are some steps that can be taken to perfect the feeding of a Ruger, Mauser, M70 Winchester and other claw extractor (not even necessarily CRF) bolt actions?
Let's talk about ALL possibilities, from the zero cost things the gun owner can do himself, all the way up to having the rifle tuned by top gunsmiths.
Would ask that all that respond be VERY specific in their answers, including the brand name of any products used, the names of any gunsmiths that have been used, the name of the action part modified and where on that part the mods were performed, etc.
Thanks in advance for all answers!

Fred

I have only had one bad experience with a Model 70's feeding and that was with a mid-90's Classic. It would feed but it was always a little "glitchy", particuarily as the cartridge was starting to rise up the feed ramp. I tried polishing the feed ramp to no avail, I removed a few machine marks from the bolt face, once again - no help.

I did notice though that when I removed the extractor to polish the bolt face that the extractor was not "springy", it seemed to take a set and retain it when removing and installing it, I could bend it to the correct configuration, it would always work and extract cartridges with no problem. But, the lack of tension "springiness" got me thinking - I order a Williams extractor for it and it feeds flawlessly, it is like a completely different rifle now.

I have since read that the extractors in the Classics are a MIM part and that the grain structure is random rathere than linear and hence the lack of "springiness".

Anyway that was my probem and my fix - the best $30.00 I have spent in a long time.

drover

drover
Thanks- That is EXACTLY the type of information I was hoping for.
Fred

I'v have only had one problem with the CRF and it was with the Montana 99 and it was no fault of the action but human errow. When my son was in the Colorado School of Trades gunsmith school, he built me a 264 Win Mag on the Montana 99 LH action. This was his first rifle build and when he test fired the rifle after cambering he did so without installing the extractor. To make along story short when he put the rifle completely together and installed the extractor he didn't try a round through the mag . He sent me the rifle and when i tried a round in the mag it would lock up half way out of the mag. I measured the extractor and he had pick up the wrong extractor which was a standard case extractor instead of the magnum . I replaced the extractor with a magnum and the rifle worked flawlessly.

Recently had a 98 Mauser rebored/rechambered from .25-06,which fed flawlessly,to 9.3x62mm which would not. Seemed that the 9.3 casing wouldn't slip under the extractor completely to the top of the bolt face causing the 9.3 cartridge to pop up and jam just before entering the chamber. Got out my 1600 Husquvarna in .30-06 and tried the 9.3 in it. Fed perfectly! Got out a jeweler's file and filed my Mauser's extractor to match the contour of the Husky extractor. Only the bottom edge needed a minute amount removed but it made all the difference. All is GOOD now.

The subtle differences in Mauser calibers!

But ya know,my Husquvarna will feed the following with no problems:.257 Roberts,.25-06,.270 Win,7mm Mauser,.308 WIN,.30-06,and now 9.3x62mm. Go figure!

Getting a CRF action to feed perfectly is a combination of a lot of things (as we have already seen): extractor, feed ramp, feed rails, etc. Even the same case with a different bullet, or bullet diameter, can cause problems.

As an example, one of my rifles is a .338 Winchester Magnum built on a commercial FN Mauser action. This was a .30-06 action when I bought it from a friend, and I had a local gunsmith open up the bolt face. I did the work on the feed rails myself, which can get kind of tricky, as if you take off to much....

Anyway, I went slowly and also shortened up the claw on the '06 extractor. It fed perfectly and has now for over 20 years, with any kind of .338 ammo.

Last year I decided to fool around with the .458 Winchester Magnum. Instead of buying another rifle, I bought a take-off Shilen barrel in .458, and had a local gunsmith fit and headspace it to the .338 action. (I have a barrel vise and wrench setup, so I can switch barrels back and forth on various actions.)

Now, the .458 is the .338 necked up to .45. With the new barrel .458 cartridges feed but not terribly reliably, because the feed rails push the fatter bullets toward the side as they head into the feed ramp. They tend to hang up occasionally on the other side of the chamber from the side of the magazine they fed from.

I probably can get this action to feed the .458's perfectly, but then it might or might not feed .338's.

In many commercial CRF's getting cartridges to feed perfectly every time is often just a matter of round off sharp corners in the front of the action, or changing the angle of the feed ramp slightly, or even just putting in a tougher (or softer) magazine spring. My .416 Rigby CZ 550 Magnum fed pretty well from the start, but needed some rounding of the rear edges of the front receiver ring, plus a stiffer magazine spring to feed perfectly every time. The factory magazine pspring wasn't strong enough to lift the front of the rounds up to the feed rails, every time, so they tended to "porpoise," nose-diving into the rear of the feed ramp.

I had the opposite problem with a 1903 Springfield re-barreled to .338-06. The rear of the case was too far from the rear of the magazine, and the bolt would sometimes skip over the rim or a cartridge. This was because of a manufacturing defect in 1919: The milling cut for the magazine box wasn't quite far enough to the rear, pushing the rounds slightly forward and down. A couple of minutes with a Dremel tool solved that one.

On the other hand, a brand-new .375 Ruger Hawkeye fed both spitzer and round-nose loads perfectly, every time. I could not make it jam, no matter how rapidly or slowly I worked the bolt. This is just one of the things that impressed me about the new rifle.

D'Arcy Echols also installs wider magazines in all his Legends--and then further works over the actions to make sure any kind of ammo from that caliber feeds perfectly. The ideal, he says, is for the rifle to also feed epty cases, though sometimes that isn't possible. I have owned a few CRF rifles that that myself, including a .30-06 made on a VZ24 military 98 action. Load it up with empty '06 cases and they went through perfectly every time.

In general it is far easier to get push-feed actions to feed perfectly, but then they are still PF actions.

Mule Deer,

When you reworked your CZ where did you get the new magazine spring? Was it something a gunsmith had lying around or did you or him specifically order it in?

Just curious as I am currently getting my CZ 550 magnum in 416 Rigby tweaked and I am kicking around if it is worth doing while it's in the shop.

Thanks,

WC

Virtually every part of a CRF needs to be in correct relationship with the other parts in order to work correctly as designed 100%. That is what and why gunbuilders like Echols spend inordinate amounts of time building each rifle.
Your local gunplumber may be able to grind and polish a few parts with his dremel tool enough to make things work pretty well and fix individual problems - just as your local auto mechanic may fix a small problem with pliers, hose clamps and JB weld.

The real wizards, who understand how all the parts need to relate to each other, will start at some given point and carefully machine, file or grind all of them to the correct tolerances until all the parts work together as they were designed. Then they polish them for perfect feeding.

Even things most folks don't think of - like the depth of the extractor grooves in the cartridges - will adversely affect the feeding of a CRF rifle.

Most all has been addressed..I might add that the 98 Mauser is designed for the 8x57 and the 7x57 and the military guns work 110%, at least everyone I have seen does, unless of course someone has monkied with it...

Everything and I mean every hump, bump, dent, indention, hole or what have you on a Mauser is there for a purpose, even the shape of the bolt!

When we change the caliber then each and every part needs to be changed as well...I have built more than a few 404s on 98 Mausers and it is near impossible to get 110% feeding with them, but in a full magnum M-20 Mauser made for big bores it is a cinch. I have studied the Mauser almost as much an anyone and learned more about them from Jack Belk than anyone else. Jack is a genious in metal and one of the few who really knows the ins and outs of Mausers..Probably the best Mauser man in the world today is Harold Wolf, publisher of Hatari Times Magazine.

After you get one to feed, then they must be polished out and only with hones IMO..and this too is work for an artesian..Once done, then extensive testing needs to be done for a Mauser to be totally dependable and the only way you can determine that is testing and lots of it...that does create a gunsmithing problem and interferes with production and cost of building a rifle, thus the problems one runs into with many custom rifles. Even new blueing can cause you temporary feeding problems and generally does...300 rounds shot through a new rifle can make all the difference in the world.

Once done properly the Mauser is the best rifle in the world today....

I added this edited paragraph for the purpose of condeming the practice of those who cut the extractor on a Mauser or M-70 to ride over the cartridge head in order to make it possible to drop a round into the chamber and close the bolt.

The Mauser was purposely designed not to do that so that the extractor would be the strongest extractor known to man. It is also a fact that one can place a loaded round in the magazine and close the bolt just as fast/easy as he can drop one in the chamber and close the bolt. Dropping a round in the chamber will be more probable to cause a jam or fumble..FWIW..

Ray, John, Phil and all others
Thanks! Great deal of information here. I'd be curious as to where the real top notch guys learned where to start and what to do-

Fred

Westcoaster,

I substituted a military Mauser magazine spring that I found in my "box of Mauser parts."

Fred,

One invaluable source of information is THE MAUSER BOLT ACTIONS, A SHOP MANUAL, by Jerry Kunhausen (VSP Publishers 1991). I believe that Brownells offers it for sale.

What is considered to be the ideal point in the bolts forward travel for the cartridge to rise out of the magazine and be controlled by the extractor? As in should it be fully controlled by the bolt 1/2 way forward 2/3rds the way etc.?...................................DJ

John
Thanks
fred

I'm reluctant to post here, but feel this tidbit needs added. Many consider this a "reference book" and look for specific information they need to preform a job. I've read it, cover to cover three times, qnd learned something worthwhile each trip. Now I'll fade back into the background where I belong.

Another thing I found when I had a 30-06 Enfield rechambered 308Norma.The lip on the follower has to work in concert with the opening of the feed rails.

With a well timed action the round should pop up and be firmly grasped by the extractor by the time it is 1/4 of the way forward so it may be fed directly into the chamber.

Feeding is not the only issue;ejectors should be properly timed as well. I personally like the Mauser better.In a M70 it's important to keep the ejector slot clean so that the ejector will rise up properly to kick out the case.

I have seen some "untuned" Mausers that left the case sitting in the extractor after the bolt had been slammed back. Replacing the ejector with a military Mauser ejector has solved the problem.

All this sounds really complex, but when one works like it should,it is a sslick as it gets.One of the reasons I'm not much of a WSM fan is that it's hard to get the things to feed well; something like a 30/06 or a 270 on a tuned Mauser or M70 is a delight to use.

One tiny gremlin in converting a pre 64 originally chambered to a standard case like 30/06 to magnum case,is that the underside of the rear bridge should be opened out a bit to allow clearance of belted case on ejection. If you compare an original pre 64 264,300 WM, or 458, action,you will notice that the opening under the rear bridge is wider so that the larger case head can clear the port during ejection. This opening is narrower on an action for 30/06-sized cases.Conversions to magnum I have seen usually do not have this done,but seem to work well enough,although if you are really anal, it is worth considering this.