Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Blue Dot Load Disaster

I don't believe in blown up guns any more than President Obama was born in New Mexico...somewhere around area 51.

This is how I have reloaded for several years to avoid any problems with charging.

I kind of think VG is a little overwrought on this. Sin Number One was being distracted. Sin Number Two, well, I can't imagine trying BD in a 257 WBY. That case is huge. A double charge in that thing would be a pretty serious kaboom. So, I pretty much limit my Blue Dot to small cases...FB, 223 and 22BR, and really don't have much desire to try it in larger cases.

I'd like to point out, that before I was aware that VG had posted this, I posted the exact same link on the Big rifle Reloading Forum here...

I want people to know the facts on this, and the author who lost his firearm admits that it was his accidental fault of doing a double charge, having been distracted by the wife and being in a rush to get to the range to test things out..

It had to do with paying attention, and doing safe load techniques... which he admitted not doing, and he is a very experienced handloader...

VG is right in the fact, if you don't know what you are doing, can't pay attention, or don't have safe handloading practices, or allow yourself to simply get distracted... then reduced loads are not for you....

Load slower than needed powder in a case, and you'll never have to worry about this sort of stuff happening...4831 or H 1000 and you'll never have something like this happen in a 223...

the key point here is that thank goodness no one was seriously injured.. secondly the gentleman who suffered this, was kind enough to bring it to folks attention.. and thirdly was man enough to admit his mistake instead of just blaming it on the powder....

cast bullet shooters and handgun shooters have had to pay attention to details like this forever....

if someone is going to handload.. it is his responsibility to make sure that his load techniques are safe, and that his handloads are safe...

I admit to having communication with this gentleman before this happened.. recommended load minimums and max's.. based on work with the 7 Rem Mag, the 300 Win Mag and the 338 Win Mag...

I also remember highly recommending that SR 4759 would also be a good choice, particularly in a Magnum case, that is what I personally use.. and tons of reload data is floating around for that cartridge...Lyman's cast manual lists 2400 and Unique for reduced loads in the 257 Weatherby, and both of their max loads listed in that manual can be double charged in a 257 W case...

in fact looking thru the Lyman Cast Manual # 3, there are a lot of loads listed that can be easily double charged...

I don't see where blaming this on any one powder accomplishes anything...

it was a safety issue and not paying attention...

Rocky,

+1 sir...

Guns don't kill people, people do.

You misuse a tool, it can get you.

Somewhere, the original poster missed this.

Thanks.

If we agree with VG, then we shouldn't use handloads at all, because it is inherently dangerous. We certainly shouldn't be using full-power loads, because of the danger of using the correct weight of the wrong powder. (That's the exact flip side of using the wrong amount of the correct powder, as in double charging.) If a reloader uses a load that is recommended, but grabs the wrong can of powder, there could be a disaster.

I'm not really suggesting we shouldn't handlaod. It was meant to show the fallacy of our friend VG's reasoning. But the point I made is valid: in almost every instance of this type accident, it wasn't a bad load problem, it was a bad loadER problem.

In the event referenced in the link, there may have been TWO loader errors. The first may have been the loader's decision to use Blue Dot IN THAT CARTRIDGE, which may not be suited to BD loads at all. The second was, obviously, in allowing himself to be distracted enough to double-charge a case and not catch it.

The first point might be debated. I myself would say that the 257 Weatherby is absolutely not a candidate for this class of loads. That discussion would require too much space here to pursue, so let's leave it at the point where the loader's decision is at least questionable. Emphasis on HIS DECISION: a loader problem.

The next point is not debatable. He allowed a distraction to compromise the procedures of reloading, resulting in what was probably a double-charged case. There are ways to interrupt and safely resume the reloading process, but he did not follow them: it was again a loader problem.

If we abandon every aspect of reloading that might result in an accident, whether that be load choice or load procedure, we are left with no reloading possibility at all. But the source of every possible error is not in the components (they cannot assemble themselves), it is in the operator.

The link depicts not a handload disaster, but a handloadER disaster.

What possible reason could there be for doing this. I guess I just don't get it. To save money ? If you want a reduced load to the point of trying DA stuff like this maybe you should just buy a smaller gun.
With all the safe combinations of powders you could use in any modern rifle chambering what would make you want to do something that stupid. At best you might save a few pennies per rounds, at worst you could die. Just seems kinda DA to me.

Except when working up loads, I load all of my handgun and rifle rounds with a typical mechanical powder measure. After I get the rounds in the loading block charged, I put the black under a light and see if the powder levels in all the cases look the same. This takes only a few seconds and seems to work.

JB, I look into every case, also. I do mine one at a time, though. My memory isn't so shot that I can't recall what the last one looked like 17 seconds ago!

SKB, the point of the thing is to have a rifle capable of doing several jobs. You can have smaller rounds (most of us do) but that isn't true flexibility, unless you carry all your rifles around at once like golf clubs. Even with full-power loads, I'd bet that you have a deer load, an elk load and perhaps even a predator load. That's flexibility. Adding a load that's lighter still simply adds to the range of things you can do with that rifle. Not all cartridges are capable of this practice, however. The one in question (IMHO) is an example of one totally unsuited to reduced loads - ANY reduced load.

I throw all my charges with a measure, have all the cases in a loading block, then take a flashlight and look at the powder level in them all before ever seating a bullet. This is just the correct procedure to double check a double charge. It also will let you know immediately if you had some bridging and a light charge in one.

I agree this procedure works with our so called "standard reloading practice's", but with the Blue Dot loads as discussed here, in my opinion it won't work well. Why? Because the charge level is deep enough in the case that it is difficult to reliably judge the level by eye. Standard loading as practiced by most of on the 'Fire will recognize the validity of eyeballing the powder level before topping with a bullet, provided it is somewhere near the case neck.

My own procedure using a measure with Blue Dot is to set the empty cases on the right side of the measure, and the charged cases on the other. I pick up a case with the right hand, shift it to the left, use the right to operate the handle, then put the charged case in the block to the left of the loading press. I then check the entire lot of charged cases with a dowel (inserted into the charged case) that is marked with a reference line that is even with the top of the case for the charge dropped. This instantly shows any case that has any significant deviation from the norm. Even a few tenths off can be recognized easily in my experience. If the line isn't visible, its light; if it has space between it and the case mouth, its heavy and is dumped back and recharged.

It isn't rocket science. Its paying attention to detail. As poor as I am, I'm not too poor to pay attention.

Why handle them twice? I suppose if you have extra time, but I don't. I prefer to handle them once, believing it faster as well as safer.

My reason for wanting to do it is simple...I don't want to blow to hell any more bobcats...most of the coyotes around here have crap pelts & are a dime a dozen, although I've taken a couple that were really nice...I've got a new .223 on the way & fully intend on putting reduced loads down the tube...I DON'T think it's a DA thing to do...OTOH I think it's a very smart thing to do. A light 40-45 gr. bullet over 6-7 gr. of blue dot ought to work just fine...Lyman has guite a few loads listed that utilize "Pistol" powder.
If I can come up with both reduced & full loads that shoot to pretty close the same vertical POI at 100 yds. I'll be really happy...IF I can come up with A combination that shoots the 53 gr. TSX, along with a full load "yote" round AND a reduced load for bobcats & tree rats, I'll indeed be quite satisfied...kinda like carrying three guns at once.
Even if I can't come up with something that works EXACTLY like I would like, I'm sure I can come close...It WILL be fun to try anyway...YMMV

Sounds like a pretty valid method to me...might be a better & more efficient way than weighing each individual charge...

I do weigh each charge while working up. Once I decide on the best charge (or charges, sometimes I will find 2 sweet spots a grain or 2 apart) I will make a dedicated dowel rod for that caliber and charge.

I should also clarify that I use a Harrell's powder measure; I tried my RCBS Uni-flow and found that it gave me more variation than the Harrell's. I was weighing each charge until I fell into the Harrell's for a price I couldn't turn down. IIRC, its their benchrest version and will only drop up to about 25 grains or so of a more "standard" rifle powder, such as is used in benchrest shooting. With the Blue Dot, seldom does it vary more than about 2 tenths.

As to the question of why would someone want to shoot reduced loads in a 257 Wby?

Lets face it, what is the barrel life span of a 257 Wby?
if someone practices with it in the off season, he can burn the barrel out in a year or two at most...

however loading it down to 250 Savage velocities or even 25/35 Win velocities, he can have a relatively long barrel life, and do a lot of off season practice....

if anyone decides to purchase a magnum cartridge, then wants to use it for other items off season, such as varmint hunting or range practice... reduced loads allow them to do that with that particular firearm...without wearing it out prematurely...

I still don't understand the criticizm of others who think differently from the person who owned the firearm....

he had a reason for wanting to try reduced loads in THAT cartridge...regardless of case size, they all have safe ranges...

some choose those 'safe ranges' published straight from a book.. others don't find those ranges published at the velocities that they choose to have.. so they are left to experimenting, or forums such as this allow others to exchange info...

several powder recommendations were made to the individual that suffered this mishap... he had requested Blue Dot info but I also recommended and gave him info for use of SR 4759 and 4198...

this entire affair is about safety and paying attention... not an argument on what powders to use or avoid... or not whether it is a wise or dumb choice to want to use a reduced load in your firearm.. its a personal choice...

and if it isn't a choice you want to make then don't... but where do people come off questioning the intelligence of people who chose to do so?

instead of a double charge, what if the person had put only a half charge of some powder like 4831, and this happened.. as it has been known to do....

what argument would all the naythsayers be using then?

because it is just as easy to put a double charge of a fast powder in a case, as it is to put a half charge of a slow powder in a case.. but ending up with the same results...

its called paying attention, not being hurried, not being distracted.. and having a plan if you are distracted to maintain safety....

lets face it, when we handload, you can never avoid your wife, wanting your attention for "just a minute" or 'Just a second'....

When that happens to me, I dump out the powder of the case I am working on, turn it upside down and know where I left off, and know I am starting clean on a cartridge...

because if your wife is any different than my wife, if I don't give her immediate attention when she wants it, she feels all rejected and hurt... and when you try to explain this safety reasons that you just can't stop in the middle of loading something, then they get all pissed off or defensive like you are blaming something on them...

my wife isn't a handloader, she doesn't understand this or care to understand it... she acts like she is being a saint by "letting me" have a firearm and hunt and shoot to begin with...

I am sure most wives are not different.... I have no control over her moods and expectations in a marriage.. but I do have control over my own load safety techniques at the reload bench...

and as far as load techniques... I use a beam scale, (RCBS 505).. Lee Powder dippers, and I charge then seat a bullet before going onto the next one....

not the fastest way, but I learned it was much more safer...and controlable for ME in the long run...

and rushing at the reload bench is not a reason to be there...

I sent a PM to the person that this happened to, and just received a PM back from him explaining to me what he did wrong....

I have asked his permission to post his response to my PM.. which essentially asked what charge was he attempting to do?

if he gives me permission, I will post it

however I can pass on, that the charge he indicated he was doing in the rifle case was 24 grains of Blue Dot in the 257 WBY case...

That load is very safe in a 25/06, so would have been more than safe in a 257 WBY... however a double charge wouldn't have overflowed the case....

however if permission is given to post his explanation of the circumstances, I will do so...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post2278392

Take a look at the Hercules (now Alliant) data; yep, powder manufacturer's have provided Blue Dot (and Unique!) rifle cartridge recipes!

Greg

I used BlueDot in both handgun and rifle jacketed loads long before I even knew there was a Seafire - I still do. Like any other propellant, it is safe to use within its pressure envelope by careful, knowledgeable handloaders. I use the term handloaders rather than reloaders because - like another certain writer - I believe that the latter folks load just to shoot, while the former folks load to....load. Someone who is truely involved in the hobby of handloading can handle BlueDot just fine.

I gotta giggle when I read posts here that condemn a particular loading practice as unsafe or unhealthy. Kinda reminds me of the gomint telling us we can't eat Big Macs because they aren't healthy for us and someone might die because they et one. Or wanting to take our guns away from us because - dang it - they are dangerous. Rather than trying to beat us into submission because we don't happen to agree with them, why don't they STFU and stop trying to be our mommy. Let us take personal responsibility for our actions - now there's an interesting concept! We don't need no one telling us how to be safe. We can take the hint.


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