Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Blue Dot Load Disaster

Giggle away. Just don't see the point. Handloaded for 37 years, I guess I'd qualify as truly involved. You can load'em anyway you want....not likely I will ever STFU.

You're only about 20 years of experience short, then. Perhaps that explains things.

Skb2706: AMEN!
On your brilliant and YET so obvious an observation!
WHAT possible reason could there be to RISK your fingers, your eyes, your face, your brain EVERY time you pull the trigger on a "squib load" or a "Blue Dot load" in a Rifle?
There IS NO rational reason!
There is NO rational reason for turning your hobby into a game of "Russian Roulette" every time you pull the trigger on a "squib load" or "Blue Dot loads" in a Rifle!
Thats WHY those that rationalize this sort of dangerous practice MUST maintain their air of superiority - their air of SUPER HUMANITY - their air of infallibility - their air of invincibility!
I have news for them - the fellow that blew up his expensive Rifle and scope and narrowly escaped life threatening injuries USED TO HAVE that same air of invicibility!
He doesn't anymore.
He NOW realizes he is just a regular old human being and like all regular old human beings he is subjet to making a mistake!
Trouble is, the mistake he was able to make would NOT have been achieveable had he used a powder recommended for his caliber - and that useage of "squib loads" and/or "Blue Dot loads" in a Rifle COMPOUNDED his human error.
Compounded that situation into a life threatening one!
"Squib loading" a Rifle is both irrational and irresponsible!
I would no more knowingly sit at a bench alongside a "squib loaded" cartridge shooter than I would play golf in a lightning storm!
Sure you could get away with golfing in a lightning storm some of the time BUT like skb2706 asks - WHY risk it?
Along with exhibit #1 (the exploded Rifle and scope!) and the shooters injuries - I have to place into evidence the fact that NONE of MY loading manuals show any "squib loads" for 257 Weatherby Rifles!
Nor for 223 Rifles!
Nor for any other Rifle caliber I can find!
That exhibit #2 is a very STRONG bit of evidence that the practice of "squib loading" or "Blue Dot loading Rifles" is not recommended.
I.E. - UNSAFE!
Skb2706, it has to be pointed out that the "invincible" rationalizers will not speak to my point where I ask "what happens to the folks alongside you when you are playing Russian Roullete with your squib loaded Rifles"?
Are they invincible as well?
Or are they lesser human beings than the aforementioned "rationalizers" are?
Puzzling - if the Blue Dot rationalizers can juxtapose an air of invincibility upon themselves why not impose that "invincibility" on the person at the next bench or on everyone in their shooting party - the answer is THEY CAN'T!
So why embark on this risky and dangerous business in the first place?
You hit it - dead on.
There is no rational answer to that!
If the loading manuals DON'T list it - DON'T LOAD IT!
Period!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The problem, VG is that (as has been shown here now several times and with several sources), loading manuals DO list such loads.

Is it Russian Roulette to fire ANY handload? There are many ways to mess up a handload, from using the wrong powder or the wrong amount of powder, to using the wrong weight bullet. Why, we can even use brass with a different headstamp, thus leading to inserting an incorrect cartridge in the rifle.

Clearly, your own kind of handloading is just as foolhardy.

Skb2706: Add to your 37 years experience MY 50 years of handloading experience - I had to virtually self teach myself to handload. I was given a handloading tool by an older friend who gave me verbal instructions of how to handload Rifle ammunition when I was 12 years old!
My family could NOT afford factory ammunition so if I wanted to shoot I had to scrounge and borrow and pick up pop bottles and deliver papers and work in Bean fields during the summers - just so I could buy components to make ammo for my fathers sporterized army surplus Rifle!
My mentor EMPHASIZED at every possible opportunity that safety was of utmost importance when handloading.
I wish more people shared that philosophy!
So add to our combined 87 years experience the reaction of my devout Hunting companion and gunsmith friend - he said "what kind of f***ing idiot would use Blue Dot powder in a Rifle"?
This man is 70 years old and a lifelong handloader as well - he is also a trained gunsmith, retired Army Officer, NRA Certified Safety Instructor, lifelong firearms advocate and all around "careful" kind of guy!
This reaction came after I had printed out a picture of the aforementioned "squib load" "Blue Dot in a Rifle" disaster pictures and showed it to him. He was actually OFFENDED that someone in the shooting fraternity would do something so "stupid and dangerous"!
And again I reiterate this language came form a person who is devout and I had never heard that particular wording come from his mouth before!
Take note of the gigglers and pray for the best, for them.
Even if the 3 of US had only 3 years handloading experience it STILL DOES NOT RATIONALIZE AWAY the inherent catastrophic dangers of "squib loading"!
I wish our "pretending to be others mothers" WASN'T needed, but OBVIOUSLY it is!
I could care less if irrational and irresponsible handloaders call me names or try to insult me - that is another sign of poor decision making on their part - I do care that some people are doing dangerous things and I won't hesitate to try and correct that dangerous behavior!
IF the handloading manuals DON'T show it DON'T LOAD IT!
Period!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG -
Who made you the God and overseer of all handloading knowledge and practices?

If you don't want to use Blue Dot or other reduced loads then don't, but get off of your high horse and settle down. We are adults here and we live in a country where there still remains some freedom of choice and if folks wish to use reduced loads then it is their choice not yours and your friends. Your air of superiority is disgusting, not to mention your constant reference to your "friends" who agree with you. To paraphrase your works "there is NO rational reason" why this should bother you so much except that you cannot stand to have anyone disagree with you.

Using your logic the 6 PPC, 6 BR, 22 PPC and even your beloved 204 could never have been developed because there was no published data for those cartridges.

Get over it. Just because some person was distracted and lost track of where he was in the reloading process does not mean that everyone else will do the same thing. Reloading carries with a responsibility to pay attention to what you are doing.

The wind must be blowing in the Dillon area today - it seems that all you have to do is get on the computer and rant.

drover

It appears as though all cartridge wildcatters and cast boolit shooters should do nothing more than admire their new work? I rather like shooting my 17AH, 17MIV, 20-222, and 25-223, not just waiting on a handloading manual to come along with load data (yeah, I know, the 17AH and 17MIV are now sorta "mainstream", with data available).
I won't use my years of handloading to proclaim I can't learn more about reloading; new information is appreciated.

Now it seems some are oblivious to the PRINTED data from Hercules, where Blue Dot was listed for rifle cartridge use. Maybe it's a "don't confuse me with facts...I know how I feel" syndrome.
The loads likely are no longer printed, due to lack of personal responsibility and fear of litigation, not any inherent risk.

Added: I don't offer a blanket endorsement of Blue Dot use in every rifle cartridge, but nor do I subscribe to a blanket condemnation of its use in rifle cartridges.

I started using Blue Dot in 223's with the 40g Bullets. I can shoot from 3000 fps to 3300 fps with extreme accuracy with very little powder.

BIG ADVANTAGE= cleaning the rifle every 500 rounds, vs 125 with full power loads.

Another advantage is a lack of barrel heat which equals a lack of barrel wear.

For close in squirrels, fur friendly for foxes, bobcats, and yotes, this is the perfect answer to a guy that would like to own a 22 hornet or 221 Fire Ball in a rifle...just use the 223.

One thing about Blue dot that I have found that it does not go through a powder measure very well, leading to powder bridging with a swing of about .5g at times which also happens with most stick powders including Varget.

Guys also use Blue dot in their 22/250's to achieve the same results above.

Blue Dot loads are not Squib loads, they are high pressure loads.

You do not see published info anymore, but there used to be loading data for about every shotgun powder made for use in rifles...700X, Red Dot, Unique, Herco, etc. Loading cast bullets in rifles using shotgun powder has been done since forever.

For the nay-sayers here that think that down-loading is a bad thing I have a question.....

Do any of you ever use .38's in your .357's? Why not just go out and buy a .38? Sounds like you bought a too big of a gun for the job....You do it because you can and it's safe. It's great practice and good plinking and for smaller game. Why not do it in a rifle?

That being said, I'm not a brave man. I've had a gun go up in my hands (case head seperated, bad brass) and it's not fun. I'll stick with published loads. That being said, Hodgdon publishes reduced loads and a 60% rule using ANY load that uses H4895. I'm thinkin about trying some in a 30/30 for small game, predators and varmints. Using hodgdons numbers I should be able to get 110 and 125 gr bullets down to around 1700fps.

Chris,

Try 18 to 20 grains of SR 4759.. I think you will find them a lot more accurate than the H4895 load.. and this is from published data floating around...pressure tested and all by the factory...so even the naythe sayers can't piss on these loads..

That's the way I do it.

For an additional current manual showing reduced load with pistol powders in rifles - try the 2008 Hodgdon Annual Manual, page 81:

.223 Remington, 55-grain Hornady FMJ
Tightgroup - 3.1 grains, 1064 fps
Clays - 3.2 grains, 1060 fps

Too bad Hogdon doesn't realize that those two powders are even faster than BlueDot, and are clearly unsafe in a rifle cartridge....


.

DoubleRadius: Are YOU willing to COMPLETELY ignore the exploded Rifle in question?
Are you willing to ignore what caused it?
And are you willing to ignore the inherent dangers that come with "squib loads"?
Are you willing to ignore the potential injuries you RISK every time you make a "squib load" and then go to shoot (detonate?) it?
In my wildest dreams I can not see the merit in risking these things!
And in my wildest dreams I can not see a need for a 1,060 FPS 55 grain bullet load in 223?
BUT, I can easily envison the common "human trait" that caused the "detonation" and subsequent destruction of the "squib loaders" Rifle!
That would not happen in a properly thought out handload.
One where the powder capacity of the handload is in the 95% full case range!
If you are willing to ignore the dangers and ignore the risk of injury and ignore all the things that can go wrong with "Blue Dot loads in Rifles" and in "squib loads" THEN you are doing a lot of ignoring!
I am not saying YOU are ignorant - BUT I am saying you are doing a LOT of ignoring!
I do agree with you when you post that "squib loads of pistol powder" in a 223 Rifle is "clearly unsafe"!
I checked my Hodgdon Manuals and they show NO loadings of the "squib type" and no loadings that give less than 2,797 FPS with any 55 grain bullet and powder combination in a 223.
If the newest manuals do show "squib loads" in them then I might suggest that they (the loading manual folks) are not doing anyone any favors by partaking of the "ignorance" of the additional dangers that come along with that.
Ignorance is bliss - some famous person once said!
Ignoring what "Blue Dot loads in a Rifle" can lead to is just that - IGNORANT!
Like someone else asked here, and I echoed, WHY risk it all?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I must admit to shaking my head a little here. I don�t want to argue about the value of subsonic loads as they are quite useful to me.
I have shot many 155-grain Lee gas check bullet � minus the gas check � ahead of 5.0 grains of Accurate Arms No. 2 in my 307Winchester. This load is good for 910 to 920 fps and is not position sensitive. If you have a desire to learn trigger control and improve your bench technique this load will do it.
The same Lee bullet ahead of 5.5 grains of Hodgdon Titewad will give me 1,090 fps.
5.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye will also run 1,090 fps.
With proper load technique these are safe and reliable loads � not just in my rifles but in many others as the Bullseye load has been around for at least 50 years � that�s how long I have been shooting it with a variety of 150-grain cast bullets. My father started me off on these as I was in the first grade the first time I popped a cap in a 308 Winchester rifle.

Subsonic loads are very important for certain kinds of varmint hunting. My 20� barrel 30-30AI performs very well with the 180-grain Lyman 311291 ahead of 3.5 grains of Accurate Arms No. 2 � this load giving me about 630 fps and remarkable accuracy.
4.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye behind the same Lyman 311291 in the 30-30AI is good for 915 fps and should be considered a �go-to load for sub-sonic shooting.

I could go on for quite awhile waxing ecstatic over the 7.62 X 39 using Ed Harris little spitzer cast bullet in a suppressed rifle.
With proper preparation and careful attention at the load bench there is no more danger preparing subsonic loads than any other type of reloading.

VG, the human error that caused the BOOM can easily happen in a published and "properly thought out handload". Have you ever seen how little Titegroup it takes per handgun cartridge? I'm sure it's not the only one that takes minuscule amounts of powder but it's VERY popular. Top that off with the fact that .357 cases are way over sized for 90+% of the loads out there using modern smokeless powder. Most .357 loads will fit in .38 cases but they had to make the .357 cases bigger just to keep people from using them in the .38's. Double charges are esay to do with titegroup, should we all stop using it?

My only kaboom of my creation was using H 414, and the scale had been bumped and not properly rezeroed.. an oversight on my part..
so I had an overload of H 414...which is pretty full in most cases to begin with...

I have had two kabooms using 25 grains of H 335 and 55 grains bullets.. which were not overloads...so who knows what happened there...

VarmintGuy's probb is that he can't get hardly any adults to kow-touw to his "reloading laws."

One thing I am grateful about however, is with all the bullshot we're seeing (and hearing about) from bamster and his thugs (AG Holder, Rohm Emmanual, et al) is that if it became necessary to scrounge components perhaps not ideal for every load we make, the expertise indeed still exists to create ammo that will shoot even to short ranges.

Two stories come to mind after reading about VG's rantings.

One was about an American guerilla in the Phillippine Isles during WW2 (a movie was made about him, after his story appeared in Reader's Digest), who told how the uderground made ammo to fight the Japanese early in the war.

Besides getting the ash from burnt-up palm trees to make improvised gunpowder, the guerillas used pieces of sharpened curtain rod for bullets!

The second story was about an English gamekeeper who learned how to reload shotshell primers using toy caps!

I haven't much used BlueDot because its too dirty for my tastes, but after reading this thread and seeing that grenade Weatherlee riffle, I need some excitement in my life!

Besides Bluedot, I'd like to experiment with some Trailboss, Unique and SR4756 and SR4759.

I even have some load recipes for some 2inch 12ga shells!

The reference to Hodgdon Titegroup certainly applies. Even in the 32 S&W Long there is quite a bit of air space.
Incidentally, the 2009 Hodgdon Annual Manual lists pressure tested Titegroup load data for 90-grain cast bullets in the 25-35 Winchester. The loads range from 5.0 to 7.0 grains leaving a lot of air space. The loads are quite low pressure ranging from 18,000 to 28,900 CUP.

Point well taken on the American Guerilla book. Here is a link to some stories on �Cats Sneeze� loads.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

NEVER LOAD AMMO WHILE DISTRACTED.


ATTENTION TO DETAIL.

Stubbleduck:

There is no experimenting with Trail Boss...

it is designed for the cowboy action shooting guys...

you can't get enough in the case to cause enough pressure to blow anything up...

it is VERY bulky... looks like little Cherrios...size of oatmeal flakes..

to put into perspective, 15 grains or so fills up a 30/06 case...
10 grains fills a 30/30 case...

it is meant to shoot a bullet at the max of about 1200 fps...

SR 4756 is tricky powder...can pressure spike quickly..but is great in the 444... very accurate.. assume the same for a 45/70..

SR 4759 is the easiest, and will take the wild side out of it, since there is a lot of cast bullet data, and even factory IMR Data floating around with jacketed bullets for it...

I use it more and more, basically because of all the flak from the naythsayers over Blue Dot...I still consider it safe, watching and using proper safe load techniques...