Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Blue Dot Load Disaster

Seafire,
This is a little off topic , so I will apologize in advance. In regards to Trailboss, I've been looking for a load that would send a 250 grain bullet about 1000-1200 fps out of my 460 Smith. It sounds like Trailboss might be a good candidate for that job. Any concerns?

Do be advised that IMR says Trail Boss is NOT to be used with jacketed bullets.

Quote from their own website: "Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles."

The word "specifically" means it has no other intended uses.

That could be a concern. Thanks!

Thank you Seafire! For the few unasked-for but VERY USEFUL details on those propellents!

My only experience with SR4756 is that it can make some excellent +P .38spec SWC loads that make one take notice.

Trailboss sounds like its right up my alley! Sunsonic squib loads.

SR4759 will be a totally new animal for me.

Rick.

I am not going to step on what Rocky says..

I have to admit using it with Jacketed bullets in rifles...

particularly so far with 30/06 and 30/30...

I've also tried it in the 300 Win Mag, that did fine with it...

I've also played with it in the 223, 22.250, and 243 so far..

oh and the 444...

All with Jacketed bullets..

so I'd first recommend following Rocky's advise...
as the same with me, I do differently at my own risk...

I don't think the issue is blowing up a case as it is low pressure... instead it is the potential of a stuck bullet in the bore...

I am sure you can accomplish the same using SR 4759 then..

I'm aware of that disclaimer.

But to be a devils advocate, what could be dangerous for someone shooting a copper or jacketed boolit?

And mind you I caught what was said by Seafire that very little (weight-wise) Trailboss will fill a case.

And that you (Rocky) have several times discussed your [pet] dirt-clod killer squib recipes, loaded with 10grns or so of Unique.

Working with such small amounts of Trailboss, would the pressures suddenly spike with jacketed pills?

Is there that big of a "friction" difference between lead [Pb] vs cupric or gilded pills?

Well, the word is actually a descriptor of designed. Read literally without inserting our own opinions, the quoted phrase means that the powder was designed with a specific use in mind - but nowhere does it say do not use it in other applications. Nor does it imply such, with a literal reading. The printed word has meaning, and we have to believe what the copy says just what it says - even if it is not what we want it to say.

Hodgdon does say this on page 71 of the 2008 Manual:

"LIL'GUN was designed to fit, meter and perform flawlessly in the 410 bore"

So, we can't use LIL'GUN in handguns because it was designed for shotguns? Somehow, I think not.....

This discussion is actually pretty worn out by now.


.

I'm not interested in pushing limits for the sake of pushing limits, but I am interested in understanding [better] some of the idiosyncrasies of some of the components we use. And I believe this helps me to better understand loads deemed "safe" in a reloading manual as well as knowing whether something fabricated or developed is a guarenteed disaster waiting to happen.

Some folks will say we shouldn't reload anything not found in a manual. But I recall Ken Waters and his "Pet Loads" column he wrote some years back. Waters personally came up with many loads he published (and many unsafe loads he didn't publish!), but he was a very careful man and reloader!

If anyone has a good understanding of the frictional differences between lead and jacketed bullets, please share what you know. Thanks!

I have not contacted IMR on this, but I have read that they found abnormal pressure indications when using Trail Boss with jacketed bullets. But since I haven't used TB at all, I'll not be upset if some here feel that disqualifies me from posting about it.

The difference between TB usage and reduced loads using Alliant shotgun/handgun/shotgun powders is that there are tested and published loads for rifles using Alliant powders. As noted several times in posts above, that holds for older as well as current data, and from several sources. That opens up the doors of experimentation a lot wider, in my opinion.

Lead bullets, whether swaged or cast, deform much easier and have a lower friction coefficient than jacketed bullets. That is well known. A load that is safe with a cast bullet will often produce lower velocities at higher pressures if a jacketed bullet is substituted.

Doubleradius, I can add to the word meaning dilemma. Hercules used to call Unique and 2400 RIFLE propellants, and printed that on the cans. But they published loads for handgun and shotgun with those same powders. Until IMR comments officially on it, I'll stand by my comments about what "specifically" means in regards to Trail Boss.

Rocky,
I believe we are drifting off topic but I do have some Trail Boss experiences to share here.
My father and I have loaded Trail Boss in several bottle-neck cartridges � primarily the 30-30 Winchester. We found that when Trail Boss is loaded to 100% density or with just the slightest amount of compression we experienced uniform and predictable results. When Trail Boss was loaded with what I would describe as �light-compression,� lets say 1/8 to 3/16� compression of the powder column; we would discover flattened primers and other visual indications of high-pressure. The indications were some times cratering at the firing pint indent on the primer and sticky extraction when shooting the rounds in lever action rifles.
Trail boss is a useful powder for its intended purpose and our experiences with light loads in the 45 Colt cartridge have been very satisfactory. Sad to say Trail Boss will not fill the gap left by the loss of the old bulk shotgun powder. For use with low velocity and sub-sonic rounds intended for rifles of recent manufacture I prefer small charges of fast powder.

Asking this from a "fresh" perspective ....

What are the "bulkiest" (most voluminous) propellents for making "reduced" loads?

Usually I've stayed away from Alliant/Hercules powders because they don't meter well through my measures and the ones i would use are quite dirty (but if making a reduced load and it was necessary, I wouldn't let that deter me and would use them).

I've read about BULK, although I don't know if I ever saw any of it anywhere.

PB I have seen.

At one time we had a quantity of IMR 4350 and we used it up shooting 200-grain cast bullets in the 356 and 358 Winchester rifles. 44.0 grains of IMR 4350 behind the 200-grain RCBS gas check bullet gave us a rough 1,820 fps from both the 20� and 22� barrels. There was some unburned powder but these were the most uniform loads I have ever chronographed with all strings having single digit extreme spreads. These loads were quite accurate at 50- and 100-yards.
This was a case full of powder and lightly compressed.

Stubble, the classic (I can't quite say original) powder for that job was and still is IMR's SR4759. It is very bulky, designed to fill up lots of case space. It also is very happy burning at reduced pressures, which makes it easy to light and clean to burn. But it can be hard to find on shelves. (It also has a name WAY too close to SR4756, which is a much faster flake pistol powder. Buying and using 4756 would be an all too easy mistake for somebody who had never seen both propellants before.)

PB is an even more shunned powder than IMR 4320, for some strange reason. Its name stems from "Porous Base" and it was one of several very early powders crafted during the changeover from black to smokeless. It's still a good one, and they must sell enough of it to justify keeping it in the product line, but I'll be jiggered if I've ever heard of anybody using it in anything. Maybe they're just keeping it a secret. Who knows? I have to confess, I've never tried it in anything, either. It might be just the thing for reduced loads.

Thank you Rocky. Didn't know 4320 was that unpopular if I understood you correctly. The others, not surprised they're not used "a lot."

I've heard of 4759 many times and have used (and noticed) 4756 could easily get confused with it.

One of the very first "accidents" I ever saw when I first started hunting (and when my own interest in personal "custom" loads began) was with a fairly nice O/U a fellow at the Ft Ord R&G Club had, and ruined when loading up for a duck hunt. The upper chamber was blown open and downward away from his eyes and face - leaving him VERY LUCKILY unscathed.

He joked to my dad and me "one barrel was for shooting ducks and the other was for the frogs!".

That was over 30yrs ago, and I don't remember the powders involved, but they could have been UNIQUE and HERCO, or BULLSEYE and UNIQUE. But I've never forgotten that gun.

Most accidents I've seen involve someone shooting steel shot in a full choked shotgun, when their bbl opens up like a daisy. (I once saw a Parker Hale 7mmRM where the bbl was blown open and half off because of an obstruction. Was good visual example of the pressures involved. )

Actually I'm always interested in "any accidents" anyone knows or wants to report about - to learn from them!

I also make it a point to collect any weird or damaged brass from any kind of less-than-"good" loads. Once when shagging brass at a popular public range, I eventually collected 18rds of .270 Weatherby mag where every primer pocket had been blown! Methinks the shooter would have gotten the hint after the second shot (if not the first!).

But from now on I will be searching for some PB and some 4759 till I find some. I believe all of the Dupont/IMR brands of shotshell propellent come in 8oz cans, which is actually nice - to better keep the second cans sealed (until usage) if I get lucky enough to find 1lb of each!

Of course when working with any loads a chronograph is a huge advantage, and I'll be sure my Chrony is working properly. I would definitely hate it if a pill got stuck in a barrel!

Regarding lead bullets, does the frictional coefficient change much in regard to the Brinnel hardness of the lead used?

Regardless, I agree copper is much, much harder than lead. Thanks again.

IMR 4320 is more overlooked than unpopular, might be a better way to say it. I called it "IMR's red-headed stepchild" in another thread.

I have no data to show that cast bullet friction changes with its BHN, but that doesn't mean there IS no data about it. It can't be much - at least as compared to gilding metal vs lead.

I've called Hodgdon on the use of Trail Boss in Rifles.. their only warning was not to compress it...make sure there is air space between the powder and the bullet...

I don't consider them reduced loads, but if you want a full case, in say a 223, but with low pressure and lower velocity, then using powders like 4831 or slower will accomplish the same thing.. it will have more recoil and since you are still burning 25 grains plus of powder, vs 10 to 13 grains on average for Blue Dot or 14 to 17 grains of SR 4759, it will have a louder retort...

I've also used Trail Boss in the 223 on some experiments to see what I got for results.. like every other cartridge, it is going to give you velocity in the 1200 fps range...

SR 4759 and Blue Dot are my favorite to use, because I can get decent velocities and accuracy out of each....in the 223 case..
however 2400 and both 4227s have also been used for the same...

however they are not as bulky, which makes the chances of a double load possible, unless you are loading for max velocity potential... I have also found them more erractic, less accurate and actually prefer to use something like either 4198 over 2400 or 4227....

Until recently IMR 4320 was the powder for high performance 25-35 loads. When used in a rifle with good extraction � any rifle except a Thompson Contender � IMR 4320 will deliver high velocity and exceptional accuracy. The same applies to the 25-35AI.
In recent years Alliant Reloder 10X has become the velocity and accuracy champion in the 25-35.
I am talking about bullets of 75- and 100-grains and primarily varmint hunting. The 100-grain bullets do kill deer just as well as when fired from the 250 Savage and the 257 Roberts. There are not many active 25-35 shooters left and few who use the cartridge for varmint hunting.

that picture just scares the HELL out of me and Im very sorry you had to experience such an atrocity and it does happen from time to time as we had a deer hunter sighting in a couple deer rifles back in the 70s and upon firing a round the bolt exitted the reciever from the rear and killed the shooer instantly,Im have not been sure why I do it but I rack my cases in a 50 round loading block and when the block is full of 50 I stand over the block with a lite and check the powder level in each case to see that they all look identical in powder level and then seat bullets,thanks for this post as Ive passed it along to some friends who are toying with the idea of reloading that this might give them somthing to think about,Regards and good shooting in the future...............

An easy experiment is by sizing different hardnesses of cast bullets in a sizer. The more they are sized down, the harder bullet is more difficult, and in some instances requires lube, simply because of the force and friction caused when sizing.

A harder bullet (say 30 BHN), when the load is reduced to the point the bullet just gets out of the barrel with a softer bullet (say 9 BHN), will often stick. This is using unlubed bullets, as lube quality and the amount used does change things.
I have tried this, using (gasp!) reduced loads of TiteGroup in revolvers.

On the other end, you can hit a pure lead bullet with enough pressure that it will stick in the barrel too, possibly causing damage, also due to friction, where a hard bullet or jacketed bullet would be safe.(I haven't done this, but there is enough old info from the past with pure lead used in magnum handguns).

Very hard cast bullets can also not obturate where even a jacketed bullet will obturate, since the core is very soft and the jacket can be moved around, going where its support goes with the pressure. I've miked some at the base to verify this, even though it could be visibly seen.

Two comments about recent posts: Seafire, if IMR didn't mention any warning about jacketed bullets when you spoke to them (and I assume you asked that directly) then I'll retract what I claimed about their descriptive note.

Hawk1, I think the difference in forces required for sizing soft versus hard bullets is due to their hardness alone, not their friction. You are in effect performing a reverse obturation at slow speed, and it stands to reason that a bullet that is more resistant to deformation (harder) would require more force to deform. There are ways to measure friction, but that isn't one of them, IMO.