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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I would agree Rocky, but adding lube eases the chore, why?
It is then true that sizing a "dry" jacketed bullet with the same equipment is impossible to difficult, gilding metal having a greater shearing strength and being more resistant to deformation.
Friction or resistant to deformation?
Last edited by HawkI; 03/08/09.
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Campfire Regular
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Anything is safe when done by someone who knows what he is doing. Nothing is safe when done by someone who knows not what he is doing.
Extending my fears or ignorance across the board is an invalid position for me to take, on any subject. That's the same "logic" anti-gunners use against us.
Last edited by boomtube; 03/08/09.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Anything is safe when done by someone who knows what he is doing. Nothing is safe when done by someone who knows not what he is doing.
Extending my fears or ignorance across the board is an invalid position for me to take, on any subject. That's the same "logic" anti-gunners use against us. Well stated!
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Member
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Why would a double charge be a problem with 'squib loads'? We would hardly be loading 'squib loads' to 'normal' pressures using double based pistol powders, would we? The only time I use reduced loads with pistol powders, they can be trebled before they reach 'normal' pressure for that cartridge, let alone dangerous pressure.
Weighing and funneling the powder into the case then immediately seating the bullet is great - provided one doesn't get distracted and do the weighing and funneling twice!
So why am I on about it? I nearly added my rifle to the list of blow-ups! How? I single loaded one case and got an got it empty! Not exactly an explosive mix but chambering another round behind it because I thought I had not cycle the action would have been disasterous had I been using reduced loads as only the powder in the case stopped the bullet from slipping all the way back into the case and allowing the round to chamber. This was not a reduced load and a double bullet would have blown it for sure!
I did break a few rules; When I had a misfire I extracted the 'dud' cartridge and found it to be a 'fired' case and assumed I had not recycled the gun instead of removing the bolt and looking down the bore! I did however, allow for a hang-fire and I did check for powder spill on extraction. I have never had a bullet dislodge from the case before from just a primer. Not in a rifle anyway.
Last edited by 303Guy; 03/11/09.
303Guy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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303, if you leave out a charge it doesn't matter if the charge was a reduced one with pistol powder or a full-charge one with rifle powder. You still have a case with no charge.
Either way, it wasn't the fault of the intended charge, but a reloader error. A reloader error with ANY intended load can be dangerous.
It still comes down to a basic rule: each case should contain one charge of the correct powder in the correct amount.
To address pressures, many of these loads are nearly normal pressure. They produce less gas VOLUME but at near-normal pressures. There are fewer gas molecules available because small charges have fewer to begin with. But before the bullet moves very far, the pressures can still peak to a sizable percentage of maximum. They also drop fast, which is why we get very low muzzle blast.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Referenced in another thread....
an oldie but a goodie...
funny reading threads from back in the day, where campfire members could disagree, but be civil...
its 2023, and I have to admit... 10s of thousands of rounds later.. I still haven't blown up any rifles with Blue Dot
or any other reduced loads, I've experimented with...
guess loading one at a time and seating a bullet is the way to go, don't get distracted, and use your head.
what a concept.
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Non of this applies to cast lead bullets lubed with beeswax and hoglard. One of my favorite ice breaker loads is 13 grains of Blue Dot in a 35 Whelen case pushing a 158 SWC so lubed. Chronographed them and found great consistency, low SD velocity spreads and 1450 fps. They make it to 100 yds quickly and it's like a 357 mag. Blue Dot is one of my favorite powders. And "THE LOAD" remains.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
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RockRaab: NO, it TURNED OUT NOT TO BE A SQUIB LOAD!
BUT - it WAS intended to be a SQUIB LOAD!
It turned out to be a BOMB!
Therein lies the horrific danger of "squib loads" - when HUMANS are trying to make "squib loads" (squib meaning smallish firecracker - among other things "small"!) there then comes right along with that, the ability to "DOUBLE CHARGE" ones "squib loads"!
One of the best rules I follow in my handloading is to NEVER use a load that does not fill the case at least 95% - that way if somehow some extra powder gets into the case do to some human error, and is not detected - then when that round is fired it normally would not be catastrophic like what happened to the 257 Weatherby shooter.
Again RockyRaab - NO amount of rationalization on your part makes "squib loading" any LESS DANGEROUS!
It just doesn't.
Rationalizing MAY make you feel better about what you are doing but that is false security and it does NOT make squib loading any less dangerous - making and using squib loads is dangerous (witness the associated pictures on this thread!)!
Period.
Even IF the Blue Dot squib load dangers could be described as the "burr in my sandal" that would still NOT make the practice of "squib loading" any less dangerous!
My feelings have NOTHING to do with the catastrophic detonation of that Rifle!
NOT ONE BIT less dangerous - irregardless of ANYONE'S feelings!
Again simply witness the catastrophic detonation that destroyed that modern armament, scope and stock!
How much did that one "tiny" human error cost the perpetrator?
New Rifle - new scope - new rings - new bases - shipping Rifle to manufacturer, trip to emergency room, follow-up trips to Doctors?
$1,000.00?
$2,000.00?
$10,000.00?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on an eye?
Think how much it would have cost if he had to have surgery on his brain?
Think what it would have cost him if that barrel or a part from that action had struck a human at an adjoining shooting bench?
$100,000.00?
Complete and lasting financial ruination?
I again express my thanks that more physical harm was not done to anyone in this squib load detonation incident!
I think it is ABSOLUTELY IRRESPONSIBLE for anyone to advocate or rationalize squib loading Rifles!
I have seen enough injured and screaming human beings to last 25 lifetimes - it makes me sick to think anyone would risk injuring their face, eyes, head, hands and brain to try to save a few cents on a squib load!
If the powder manufacturers DON'T recommend a load - DON'T USE IT!
Period.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy Funny post! Did you use Paprika to powder your puzzy? Blue dot loads are not necessarily squib loads and the golden rule I have no matter what the powder in use is carefully check powder level in each case before you seat the bullet. I have had one case destroyed by my loading practice. I used the wrong dipper (too) big for the load in question. Should have measured a charge from it before loading. IMR4227 in a 223 under a 45 gr. hornet bullet. Had to replace a cheap extractor in a Rem 788. Good lesson to learn.
Dog I rescued in January ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,172 Likes: 14 |
Them fast burn powders will sure 'nuff hurt something, or maybe someone. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/RFdTs4U.jpg) Look at the lower right....the target is still weeping....Bluedot hurt it. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/2F4KDN5.jpg)
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Outfitter
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The catastrophic results that can happen when trying to save a few cents...IS NOT WORTH THE MANIFOLD AND LIFE THREATENING RISKS!
VarmintGuy The very same can be said of any kind of handloading. Ridiculous. First Amendment applies, though.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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When I reload/ cell phone stays upstairs and the door get locked behind me/ its hard to get distracted them/ also I tell the wife unless the house is burning down don't bother me
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2001
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Never seen so much stupidity in one post ... ever.
Read most of it, but most is horse [bleep].
People can use whatever powder they want, I dont use blue dot, but do use Green dot a lot in 223.
As far as Trail Boss.. this is where stupid goes to another plane.
If you would just simply look in the HODGDON manual, for just about every decent recoiling rifle,
There is a load with Trailboss alternative, and they are ALL jacketed.
This post is proof positive to not take anyone's word for reloading, as there are some real dumbazzes on here.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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If I don't ask, I'll never know, right? I am about to begin loading reduced loads with Alliant Blue Dot powder. Curious to know if there are any updates that need to be addressed since the last information was posted.
This is the firearm that they will be used in: Savage Axis take-off barrel in 22-250 Remington, 1:12 twist; Ultimatum Deadline action, single shot; Jewell trigger; hand/homemade stock, bedded/pillars.
Using this as a method for keeping my round count up without having to add wear to the magnums (perishable skill, right?).
I will be using Lapua brass, that through actual capacity measurement, will hold 31.3gr of Blue Dot to the base of the neck/shoulder junction. (I will be using an approximate 50% fill for my loads, but could possibly be a tad higher).
Bullets will more than likely be Hornady #2266, but some Sierras and Speers thrown in, just for variation.
I've run some test load calculations through QuickLoad, and all scenarios show moderate but acceptable pressure, with 100% powder burn in the barrel. Pressure at the muzzle is still well above initial start pressure. Correct me, please, if I am wrong to assume that this will assure the exit of the bullet from the muzzle.
Have I missed or incorrectly calculated any glaringly dangerous scenarios/numbers?
Thank you in advance for your opinions and help with this.
Forgot to mention I will be using Large Pistol primers.
Pappy
Last edited by ParsnipPappy; 07/09/23. Reason: Forgotten Info
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,449 Likes: 2 |
If I don't ask, I'll never know, right? I am about to begin loading reduced loads with Alliant Blue Dot powder. Curious to know if there are any updates that need to be addressed since the last information was posted.
This is the firearm that they will be used in: Savage Axis take-off barrel in 22-250 Remington, 1:12 twist; Ultimatum Deadline action, single shot; Jewell trigger; hand/homemade stock, bedded/pillars.
Using this as a method for keeping my round count up without having to add wear to the magnums (perishable skill, right?).
I will be using Lapua brass, that through actual capacity measurement, will hold 31.3gr of Blue Dot to the base of the neck/shoulder junction. (I will be using an approximate 50% fill for my loads, but could possibly be a tad higher).
Bullets will more than likely be Hornady #2266, but some Sierras and Speers thrown in, just for variation.
I've run some test load calculations through QuickLoad, and all scenarios show moderate but acceptable pressure, with 100% powder burn in the barrel. Pressure at the muzzle is still well above initial start pressure. Correct me, please, if I am wrong to assume that this will assure the exit of the bullet from the muzzle.
Have I missed or incorrectly calculated any glaringly dangerous scenarios/numbers?
Thank you in advance for your opinions and help with this.
Forgot to mention I will be using Large Pistol primers.
Pappy There is Blue Dot 22-250 data here somewhere. I would find it and make my decision then. Found it for you. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/962550/Blue_dot_loads_for_22_250
Last edited by rickt300; 07/09/23.
Dog I rescued in January
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Campfire Regular
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I'd take that 31.3gr charge and divide it by two, and even that might be warm. Find someone who can do quick load analysis data for this relatively unorthodox load. It also helps to specify the bullet used as that's what determines pressure for a given powder charge.
I have a 22 cal bullet mold and only use cast round nose lead bullets at reduced velocities. I believe this contributes to consistency at lower pressures.
Copper jackets require higher pressures to achieve the same consistency in S.D. velocity spreads
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,670 |
^Yep^ Note that Seafire considered 19 gr max for most bullets and you sure don't want to start there.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well you might as well consult with the guy that developed all of this data with the 22.250, that was posted on the referenced post dating back to 2006.
Max with ANY bullet from 35 grain to 63 grain, MAX would be a charge of 19 grains.
you are using Lapua brass, which is heavier than other brass... I'd start at 16 to 17.5 grains and work up.
being a heavier case, if you have them, Large Rifle primers might be a better choice that Large Pistol. Large Pistol Magnums would be a compromise.
This is VERY IMPORTANT since you are a newby with this. Blue Dot being a shotgun and pistol powder, does NOT behave like a regular rifle powder.
1. Max Charge is 19 grains, whether a 40 grain bullet or a 60 grain bullet.
2. LOAD TECHNIQUE: Charge a case and then seat a bullet before going to the next round. This will prevent a double charge. A double charge will mess up your rifle, mess up your day and has the potential to mess up your face.
3. DON NOT use fillers, they are not needed and only increase case pressure. Blue Dot is NOT position sensitive in a case.
If you are interrupted by the wife or your kids, either finish the round you are loading, OR just pour the powder back into your container, and turn your case upside down, so you know exactly where you are it. NEVER stop in the middle of loading a round, leave and come back.... a few people have destroyed rifles doing that.
Its all about safety and someone who can't follow that, then this isn't the load you should be playing with.
Since 2004, I've shot at least 10,000 Blue Dot rounds in my 22.250s. Well over a 100,000 in 223s. Have never had an issue. Once in a Blue Moon a popped primer. ( no pun intended there).
these loads will DRAMATICALLY increase the barrel life of a 22.250. My Ruger VT has at least 20,000 Blue Dot rounds down the barrel and still will hold minute of ground squirrel out to 250 yds or so... more if I get lucky.
Play safe at the load bench and don't exceed what I've suggested as max. I've pushed beyond the stopping point I suggest and little was gained in velocity, but it started to eat up brass via enlarged primer pockets.
Best of luck with your journey.
cheers,
seafire
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Thanks, all. And yes, Seafire, it is always best to consult with the knowledgeable. My greatest concern was that some, any, or all of your recipes had undergone a dramatic change. Good to know that what is posted is still acceptable. Your first post was what triggered (pun defintely intended) the experimental desire, followed by the realisation that, if this works, I will have 200m grouse rifle.
Regarding the Lapua brass, a fortunate fluke that 15 -16gr are a 50% load, so almost nil chance of a double charge going unnoticed (I have and still look into each reloaded case before seating a bullet, once in the block and once as it's going into the press. I have a few acquaintences that are missing parts.)
I do have QuickLoad, and while it is not exact, I find it helpful in most regards. Velocities may be wrong, but they are consistently wrong for each calibre. Pressures? Not sure, I don't have the means to measure. But it seems that QL is almost spot on for all my rifles "max" loadings, and to me that's what is important.
Thanks again to all for your help with this.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The pressures on these loads are in the 40K CUP or PSI range. they are far from the max load 22.250 will take, but beyond the limit points I recommend, pressures can spike to where its blowing primers. All the loads I have recommended on ANY Blue Dot loads I have put on the Campfire or over at AR when I was on that site regularly, in testing I worked up to the point that I on purpose blew a primer, on each bullet weight. So when I recommend, STOP HERE... that is not just a guess.
I still recommend charge your brass and then seat a bullet before going onto the next case. That eliminates a double charge or a missed charge also. Its a pay attention situation, but no different than if someone is loading pistol loads.
Happy to help out Pappy. Best of luck in your journey.
I do this sort of stuff all the time. With shortages during Covid, also with powders I've never worked with before, or just working with them in a new cartridge. Posted some loads I chronographed in a 6 x 45, with a load of 14 grains of Alliant Steel. Deer loads for women and kids, at 200 yds and closer.
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Thanks again, Seafire. We are experiencing fires and severe thunderstorms this summer (again), so Ihave no idea when these loads are going down the tube. They are ready, so am I. Just have to wait for Mother Nature.
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