Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "1-12 vs. 1-9 Twist in .223's"

Thanks!

Yeah, the 75 A-max would be one bullet that would require a faster twist, as they are LONG. I haven't been able to get them to shoot in any 1-9 rifle. But the most accurate load I've found so far in my semi-custom Remington 788 .223 uses the 69-grain Hornady BTHP. I have tried some 70+ Berger in the same rifle and they shoot OK but not great. I suspect that is pushing the edge with a 1-9, though I may just have not found the right powder yet.

MuleDeer, I "think" that the 1-9" is just borderline with the 75 Amax. I have talked to some guys who say that it will work in their rifles, others say they haven't been able to get them to shoot at all.

Do you think that tolerances on factory 1-9" twists vary enough that it could explain that?

I'm wondering about twist variation myself. I have a Model 700 LTR that is supposed to have a 9" twist and it shoots great with 75 grain Berger VLD match bullets on top of N140.

I bought 75gr VLD's, 75gr A-Max's, and 80gr SMK's off a guy who couldn't get any of them to run in his 1-9" SPS Tactical 20" rifle. My 1-8" does fine. I have found that my rifle has a real preference for the heavy bullets. 50-55gr bullets shoot MOA, but those long bullets shoot much better.

I bought the VLDs on a whim and they shot great with the first powder I tried.

My gunsmith is after me to quit playing around with the little 40-55 grain stuff. I think he wants to put a 7" twist Hart on my rifle.

Edit: I may just do it too. I have a 12" or 14" (not sure, old factory Sako) twisted 22-250 I can use to burn up my stock of lighter stuff.

The only time I've found a 1-9" twist to be "a bad thing" is when trying to use SPSX or Blitz bullets, the thin-skinned ones. If the bore is nice and smooth, no problems, but let it get some wear in it, and it will strip jackets to a fare-thee-well. Blue is a very pretty color, but I don't care to see it halfway to the target...........
I've owned 1-9" twist rifles that handled the Blitzes very well, and others that, brand new, wouldn't shoot them for beans. I like to use the SPSXs or Blitzes because of the price differences over the poly-tipped bullets, but that's the only real complaint I have with the fast-twist .223s.

What is really interesting here is that both a 20-223 (known as the "20 Practical") and a 223 push a 40 grain bullet at about 3800 fps. This is unusual because a larger bore normally produces a higher muzzle velocity, be in this case it doesn't. Therefore, given the same muzzle velocity, the superior BC of the (40 grain) 20 cal bullet will outperform the (40 grain) 22 cal bullet by an ever increasing margin as the bullets moved further from the muzzle. So the 22 cal 40 grainers are hopeless beyond 200 yards (they drop and drift too much and have little energy left). And if you have a 1:9 twist then accuracy with the 40 grainers will be questionable also.

The BC for a 20 cal 40 grainer (at 3800 fps) is about .280 and for a 22 cal 40 grainer (also at 3800 fps) is about .220, so anyone wanting to shoot 40 grainers over long ranges will be much better served by a 20 cal chambering. Sorry if this is disappointing for some readers but it is the truth! But fear not, just shoot 50 grainers through your 223 and all will be solved.

John,

Do you know the reason that Remington still uses the 1-12" twist as their standard (SPS, CDL, VLS) .223 twist rate? Seems that 1-9" twist (like Savage uses) makes a lot more sense, and Rem does put a 1-9" barrel on the VTR in .223.

Mule Deer,

Given that your wife shoots deer within 300 yards, have you considered a 6mm-250? These work great out to 300 yards with 80 grain bullets. This chambering seems to be gaining popularity thanks to lower recoil than the 243 win. Both barrel and case life are better and less powder per fps is consumed.

For similar reasons I suspect the 6XC will be adopted as a factory chambering in the not-to-distant future. The 243 is just too hard on barrels.

In regards to using 40 grain bullets in a 223, check drop and drift tables and compare it with a 50 grain bullet. You'll be surprised at the difference (even more so if you compare it with a 40 grain 20 cal).

I'll try to respond to all I can remember:

I do suspect that 1-9 is marginal for 75 A-Maxes, and some of stability also depends on the particular rifle. Sometimes a cut-rifled barrel will stabilize bullets better than one with the same twist but button-rifled. Also, I have seen variations in twist from what's listed. This used to be more common but still happens. One of the old .250 Savage 99's I have owned (I have owned 6-8) had a 1-15 twist, and wouldn't even shoot the 100-grain Speer, about the shortest 100-grain .25 spitzer made. I couldn't figure out what the problem was until I finally measured the twist. After that I did find it shot the 87 Speer very well.

I suspect Remington won't change to a 1-9 twist in .223's until they wear out their present tooling--and maybe not then. Ruger has evidently also gone to 1-9, so it probably will soon be the industry standard.

I shoot ALL bullet weights in the .223, and yes I am very much aware of how much less 50-grain bullets drift in the wind than 40's. I figure it is my job to try everything so I do. If I were limited to one prairie dog load for the rest of my life it would be 50-grain Ballistic Tips and 26.0 grains of TAC in the .223--but since I'm not limited I shoot everything. Usually I show up on a prairie dog town with a .22 Hornet (various loads, but mostly 40's), a .204 (various loads from the 26-grain Barnes Varmint Grenade to the 40-grain plastic tips), and a .223 (everything from 40-grain BT's or V-Maxes to the heaviest bullet that particular rifle will shoot). Oh, and a Ruger Mark II .22 pistl that shoots like a rifle, and a .17 HMR CZ 452. Then I will add something special, which can range from a .45 Colt Ruger Bisley to a .375 H&H with iron sights loaded with 220 Hornady flat-points. Or maybe my .45-70 trapdoor.

If anybody has problems with 40-grain bullets coming apart on the way to the target in ANY centerfire .224, 40-grain Ballistic Tips will cure the problem. I have driven them up to 4400 fps with various rounds and they have always held together--until they got where they were going.

Eileen has killed big game with a bunch of different cartridges, including the .220 Swift, .243 Winchester, .240 Weatherby, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, .308 Winchester, .30-06 and 12 gauge. (She thinks real magnums are silly, partly because she has never had any problem killing really big game (such as elk, moose, gemsbok, kudu, blue wildebeest, zebra, etc.) with the .270, .308 and .30-06. She has enough experience to know what she's doing when she picks the .22-250.

Ramblin_Razorback,

Remington understands that a 1:12 twist produces the best accuracy with 50-55 grain bullets at medium ranges. They also understand that a 1:9 twist produces the best accuracy with 60-70 grain bullets at medium and long ranges. Remington then chooses the twist rate for each model based upon what they expect the customer to use it for.

Sorry I'm not John.

Remchester,

I'm not an expert on the subject, but based on what I've read, I VERY seriously doubt you would see any appreciable difference in accuracy (precision) for 50-55 gr bullets with a SPORTER-weight barrel (e.g., in an SPS and CDL) with a 1-12" vs. a 1-9" twist. With the flexibility a 1-9" twist provides, I can't see any reason to cut a sporter-weight barrel in 1-12" twist unless it was cost-prohibitive to change your tooling at this time. I think Remington is just behind the times.

This will be my final post so as not to hijack the thread. Pressure tested data I've seen
20 Tatical /40's/3700/63,000PSI
204 Ruger/40's/3700/57,000PSI
223/40's/3700+/53,000 PSI
Reality,it's a bitch.
"22 cal 40 grainers are hopeless beyond 200 yards"
That is a gem. Ballistics are easy to skew and I realize the NBT is the best of the 40's in .224, not nesesarily the 20 but just to see how things play out with like bullets at high end published velocitites.
100 yd. zero 400 yards
204/20-223/40 gr. NBT/3700fps/-19.7 19.1 drift at 10 mph
223 3800fps/-20.4 20.4
223 50 gr. NBT/3500fps/-23 20.7

So, having .223's with 7, 8, 9, and (probably 10 or 12) inch twists, I've probably got it covered??

Along with 40, 45, 50, 52, 53, 55, 60 63....etc. grain bullets.

Just to note,

The Remington VTR comes with a 1/9 twist in 223.

So's the Remington XCR Compact Tactical. (What do you expect if it's called "tactical"?

I forgot to comment on the claim that 40-grain .224 bullets are "hopeless beyond 200 yards." I've shot a lot of varmints out to 400+ yards with 40-grain Ballistic Tips from a .22 Hornet, much less a .223, and the varmints all died when hit. My friend Steve Dogzapper (aka Steve Timm) prefers 40 BT's to any other load in his beloved .223 AI's, and once won the .223 division of a long-range prairie dog shooting contest with a shot of just under 700 yards. He made the shot with a 40-grain Ballistic Tip. I know this because I was also in the contest.

Good article. I've shot both, but never shot a heavy (69 gr. bullet) in a 12 twist. Done the opposite, though. I used to think you could spin a bullet too fast, say a Hornet at 2900 fps with a 9 twist and a 33 gr. bullet, but I no longer believe you can if the bullet is good, and most are. Handi Rifles have a 9-twist, I'm pretty sure.

Edited to add: bullets out of a 12 twist should rotate the same number of times regardless of caliber or forward velocity: i.e. one turn in every twelve inches, limited by the interior ballistics. Does this sound right? A 1:9 rotates a bullet 33% faster, which is considerable. But I don't think it's enough to "blue streak" a bullet.

Back in the day, the 17 Rem would blue streak occasionally. I've heard it said that this was because the bullet was rotating too quick from a whatever-the-twist barrel, but I think it had to do with bullet construction and the blow-up was due to a flaw in the jacket.

High Power match shooters usually prefer 1-7.7 twist to stabilize Sierra's 80 grain MatchKing. That bullet and the Hornady 75 grain Amax will not stabilize well in a 1-9. Neither bullet, by the way, can be loaded to fit in an AR15 magazine ao they are single loaded. Sierra 69 and 77 grain MatchKings are preferred for magazine length (2.26 inches).

1-7.7 shot 55 grain boat tails just fine in my AR15.

For awhile there was a fad of using 90 grain bullets for 1000 yards because the 75 and 80 grain loads would not remain supersonic at that distance. These used a 1-6.5 twist.