Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns How come so many LE Agencies have switched from the 9mm?

Did not want to highjack the other thread on the 9mm, and don't want a flame session either. Would really like to know from those who keep up with this sort of thing why so many LE agencies are no longer using the 9mm after adopting it in the 1980s.

My wife's Glock 17 came from a Virginia sheriff's Dept and is so marked. When I inquired, the agency said they had swiched to Glock .40s. My own wildlife agency went from .357 Magnums to S&W .45 autos when we switched in the late eighties. In outr case it was thought the .45 would provide a bit more power for wildlife control in addition to LE issues.

A perceived need for more power, when in fact they need more training.

I think that they went to the 40 S&W 'cause they wanted more perceived "knock-down" power.

Jeff

A lot of the reasons came as a result of an FBI shootout with 2 heavily armed bank robbers. I believe 4 agents were killed. It appears that one guy did most of the killing and wounding AFTER he had taken a "non-survivable" hit that did not put him down. As a result of their penetration and expansion tests, the FBI initially went to the 10mm auto. It was to large and too snappy in recoil so they had Federal load a "10mm lite". S&W just took the caliber put it into a shorter case that would fit well in the 9mm pistol envelope and the 40 cal hit the bricks.

A M E N Brother. Our Dept. still carries 9mm AND train, seems to serve us well.

Two agents were killed in that shootout(Agents Dove and Grogan) and much of the blame was saddled on the Winchester 9mm 115 grain Silvertip bullet which stoped just shy of the heart on Michael Platt. Platt killed both agents after receiving that shot from the Silvertip, and the position of the FBI was that if the bullet had penetrated deeper, Platt wouldn't have been alive to kill the two agents.

The rush to the 9mm in the �80�s was to give the officers more �firepower� because they were complaining that criminals had high capacity 9mm�s and they were saddled with wheel guns. So most agencies got the 9mm to meet that requirement. But then following the Miami Shootout, the FBI created a whole new bullet testing methodology which resulted in some of the best bullets ever designed, as well as the .40 S&W cartridge. Since the .40 could give you good penetration, good expansion and high magazine capacity, the .40 almost overnight became THE law enforcement cartridge of choice.

The 9mm is still a very viable choice and with the newer 147 grain bullets, you can get all the penetration you need with your 9mm.

One problem with switching from 9mm to .40 S&W is recoil. Because most if not all of the .40 S&W caliber guns are built on guns originally designed for 9mm, recoil is significantly more.

Back a few years ago the US Fish and Wildlife Service switched from whatever they had been carrying and ordered .40 Glocks. Shortly after the first batch was received a call was made to Glock asking if they could change the order to 9mm. Seems the recoil was such that many of their less adept could not qualify...

As to 147 Subsonic ammo...it's a great way to make a decent defensive caliber into a high capasity .38 Special. If it was so great the FBI who pushed this round onto unsuspecting LE agencies would still be using it. In the words of their Chief Firearms instructor when asked why they no longer carry the round... "It didn't work out quite as well as we thought it was going to"...

Training wise, think about how much more training could be done dollar for dollar 9mm vs. .40 S&W vs. .45 ACP... Easily 1/3 more.

Bob

OUCH!!

Stop that. The truth hurts, ya know.

BMT

Yup. Went to the 9 coz the .38 wheel gun was was ineffective. Then, the two bank robbers were killed by a wounded FBI agent...with a .38 wheel gun.

Dan

..yea, when one had already left 80% of his blood on the ground and the other had been shot in the head...and the finishing rounds were at 6-8'...

Bob

ET & Kevin have nailed the reasons for the switch down pat.FBI set up a whole series of tests to develop their "new" loads.

In the 38, 9mm, 40 or 45, it's all about the bullet choice, IMO.

MM

Mainly because it stopped being so trendy when the FBI switched from it. The departments that used hot +P 115 or 125 grain JHPs had no problems in the stopping power department. Some that used one of those stuck with it, but many even of them switched because it was the "in" thing to do. I really think it's that simple in most cases.

The Silvertip is considered a hot or +P round in the 9mm; it was that bullet that failed to kill one of the shooters in the Miami FBI shootout..................

They changed because they wanted more penetration.

MM

Bob

Keep in mind, the FBI agent, Mireles, who "finished" the job, was also seriously wounded when he crawled forward and "finished" the job. I don't think we should make slight of either his courage or his marksmanship, since he was badly wounded and shooting with one hand.

"As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove�s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart."

That�s actually pretty good performance.

"Mireles then drew his .357 Magnum revolver, got to his feet, moved laterally about 15 feet parallel with the street, clear of McNeill�s car, and then began walking directly towards Platt and Matix, who were sitting in Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles fired six rounds of .38 Special +P from his revolver. Mireles revolver shots 1 and 2 were fired at Platt, shots 3, 4 and 5 at Matix, and shot 6 at Platt. Five of the six bullets hit Platt or Matix.
One handed, this was pretty good shooting. Far better than 99% of the police officer involved shootings with cops that aren�t wounded. Mireles first shot at Platt hit the back of the front seat behind Platt�s left shoulder. Dr. Anderson theorizes that the sound of the gunshot would have caused Platt to turn his head to the left to look for the source of the gunfire. Mireles second shot then hit Platt above the outer edge of the right eyebrow (Platt scalp wound A). The weight of the projectile that was recovered from Platt�s scalp was about 19 grains, suggesting that the bullet hit the driver�s side window post and fragmented. After the fragment penetrated the skin it ricocheted off the curvature of the right side of Platt�s forehead, and traveled between the skin and the exterior surface of the skull for a distance of about 2 inches before it stopped above the right temple. The fragment did not penetrate the cranium.
By this time Mireles had reached the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver�s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt�s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra"

I�ve had .45-70 bullets stop after hitting the spine of a deer! Again, this was pretty good performance for a .38+p



Dan

I think the FBI had another step in that process to go to more power. Maybe they needed BETTER bullets . . . that is all a guess and bullet technology has greatly expanded since those days. As I remember it the FBI jumped to the 10 MM to solve their perceived lack of power issue and that was going to solve all their problems. Little did they realize that increased power at the bullet means other things at the gun. Short failed experiment and the 40 S&W (remember back when S&W stood for "Short" & Weak" in comparison to the 10) back when it was first touted as a controllable replacement for the 10mm.
The 40 took the world by storm and many switched, others stuck by the 9s and the still seem to be performing.
All was well until someone figured out that a necked down 40 S&W case could perform and make an adequate showing as the replacement 357 Mag law enforcement load, but with a whole magazine full, NOT just 6 in the cylinder. Last I read the 357 LE loading was still king for "STOPS" in a shooting.

My local PD had a few dismal results with their Glock 17 9mm. There were at least 3 officer involved shootings that hits were recorded, but the perp was not taken out of the fight. They were issued standard velocity 124 gr Gold Dots, and I feel like they would have been better served to go with a good +p 124 or 115 gr load. They switched to the 40 cal Glock 22 with 180 gr Win Ranger loads, and so far they have proved more effective than the 9mm did. IMO bullet selection becomes more important in 9mm than it is in larger cals. My 4 favorite 9mm loads are:

115 gr +p Cor Bon DPX
127 gr +p+ Win Ranger T series
124 gr +p Double Tap (loaded with Golt Dots)
124 gr +p Gold Dot

Because the .40 has a higher level of C.D.I. Factor.

This factor is not recognized by Marshall and Sanow in their book, but it is quantifiable, nontheless by reading SWAT and Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement magazines.

It is the world renowned "Chicks Dig It" factor. No one wants to tell their wife, or their girlfriend that they are carrying a 9mm. (Unless it is a Kahr backup gun).

The FBI tests prove that you can't get a date when the girls find out your pistol doesn't start with a 4.

Very true. I think you nailed it.

PS This doesn't seem to hold true, however, in the urban black culture. There, the "nine millimeter" reigns supreme in cool. You mention a "nine" in that crowd, and eyes light up. You can't get any cooler den dat.

9mm HP's might expand. .40's and .45's ain't shrinking. A bigger hole is a bigger hole.

Modern 9mm ammunition is very good, and there are lots of choices.
I have killed a spooked deer in its tracks with one shot from a 9mm. Shot placement is always most important.