Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns How come so many LE Agencies have switched from the 9mm?

"my "beef" is that you have not answered a SINGLE question without lying or mis-directing. How could you POSSIBLY own a Model 70 that was not manufactured? The whole issue with your dad is pathetic. You are a [bleep] delusional pathological liar, that's what. And if it was just me, well then you could say it was a personality issue, but you have such an intense "following" of people who think as I do, you should take notice and just leave this place. You have not substantiated a SINGLE question posed to you. So make us all LIARS and post the picture of that Model 70 jackass. jorge

What makes you think FN did not manufacture the variations of the Model 70 I claim to have seen, since they manufactured other variations of chambering, stocks, and metal in that same plant on several occasions, including before and after they shut down Winchester in Connecticut.

You can buy the .308 tactical models made several years ago right now. So have others in Gun List and Shotgun News. Get off your butt and look. CDNN just sold off a batch of them.

Your being unfamiliar with something does not make it untrue - only in your little world.

Jorge;

Put the POS on ignore.

It ain't worth it, and truth be known, it enjoys [bleep] with you. It's the only reason it's here.

Ignore the POS.

Suits hell out of me.
If you can't post about the topic, don't post.

Best damned thing I've seen at the Campfire for a LONG time.

YEP "CLAIM" says it all right there, but NO [bleep], the MODEL 70 IN THREE SEVEN FIVE H&H WITH SOUTH CAROLINA ROLL STAMP YOU CLAIM TO OWN. jorge

I like bantering with the moron. Wonder how much lunch money he lost as a kid jorge

jorge,
You CLAIM to be a pilot, or ex-pilot, Navy SEAL, etc.
Did I ask you for proof? No, I accepted that as the truth and listened to your opinions of the 9mm, based mostly on hearsay of your friends.

Jorge

Liar 24 is Certified Idiot, that has no comprehension of fact from fiction. He has tried to put down people knowledgeable on various subjects as not knowing what they are talking about and has destroyed any Credibility he may have had as a result anything he says is suspect.

He trolling around this board with only half an oar in the water and is about to take trip over class five rapids in $9.95 K-Mart Blue Light Special rubber raft.

Let me apologize in advance for the "campfire unacceptable" behavior I'm about to display ... I'm actually going back to the original question asked

Why did so many agencies switch from the 9mm? I'd compare it a lot to the reasons many hunters switch up in caliber (marksmanship issues, using a small sample size to determine performance, listening to someone else's opinion, projectile issues, and cool factor among other things).

Am I denying that a caliber larger than 9mm can be more effective? Nope - other than my LCP, all my chosen carry or defense handguns are either 10mm or 45ACP. Am I saying that all officers (or hunters) who switch caliber upward are bad shots or irrational? Nope - not at all. If you can handle shooting bigger calibers in handguns or rifles and shoot them as well as needed, go for it. I find that I actually shoot the 45ACP better than most 9mm handguns, but that is due to the excellent fit in my hand of a 1911 - if I went with a 9mm 1911 I'd probably shoot it even better. In rifles, I have gone up and down in caliber and have pretty well settled on a 30-06. Much bigger (in a rifle I like to carry) and I don't shoot it as well and don't enjoy shooting it so I don't practice enough. I think the keys here are blanace of power / controlability and knowing your own (or your agency's) limits.

My point? The dynamic of choosing a larger caliber handgun for LE has SOMETIMES been like what we see around here with hunting rifle calibers. One bad experience for an individual and their mind is made up. The huge difference is that for most of us a failure in a hunting rifle may wound an animal (which absolutely sucks) but isn't usually life threatening to the hunter - as long as we're not talking DG hunting. For a LEO, a failure could very well be life threatening so hopefully they err on the side of caution a bit. However, just like in hunting, more "power" in your weapon is a poor substiture for marksmanship.

Just my .02.

BTW - for those of you discussing this at length who have served as a LEO or in the US military - thank you for your service.

Hopefully I'm not repeating anything from a previous post but it is too long to go back and check all of them.

As a retired police officer I think I've gained some insight. Caliber decisions are frequently made by a police chief that knows little if anything about firearms and has very little street experience. Police chiefs are mostly politicians that make decisions for political reasons.

When a police officer gets into a shootout at an Izzy's pizza parlor and has difficulty reloading with speed loaders while lying behind a Pac man machine while the suspect replaces magazines in his .45 with hardly a pause, a chief may decide that a weapon change is warranted. If there is an instance where there is overpenetration (through a wall) the chief might decide on more anemic ammunition. Just like most politicians, chiefs put their finger to the wind, and often reverse themselves.

+1 Doubletap.Stannmal look up April,11 1986 that was the infamous Miami shootout when a Winchester Silvertip did what it was supposed to do....but was labeled a Failure and since the Police had all this new drug money why they just had to spend it right? To this day you read and hear about shootouts and if the 9 is involved and the good guy lost some monday morning qb will always say"If they had only used a .40/.45/.357sig they woulda made it." I've yet to see anyone volunteer to take a 9 Silvertip to the cheast to really prove how ineffective they are.

I've read quite a bit about that shootout and I agree with you - and I wouldn't line up to take one either:)

My only comment about that shootout would be that while it is informative, it is a single incident sample. Certainly the loss of officer life in the incident is tragic and hopefully led to better equipment now. When folks utilize a single sample to prove a point on hunting bullets they are chastised yet we continually refer to that one incident on defensive calibers and bullets. Obviously it's informative in the detail that was documented but we should also look at many other events for data when choosing. Many folks do exactly that and just happen to mention the Miami shootout as it's so well known but others simply take one event and make blanket statements and assumptions on that.

Not really directed at specific folks here - just noting that many times decisions are made for less than stellar reasons and with less than complete information. Unfortunately with LE handgun choices these can have drastic consequences for the officers involved in shootings. Whatever you (or your agency) picks, let's hope your decision is based on solid reasoning and data.

I agree that one incident doesn't prove a point. However, it is often that departmental decisions are based on one incident because that one incident might be the one that gets them sued. Chiefs don't like to get sued, not because of the money (it isn't theirs) but because it isn't good for their careers.

The shortest answer I can think of, to the original question asked, is: WHIM.

My agency once had the Walther PPK/s thrust on us, because it fit in the back pocket of a pair of slacks. The deputy commissioner, who in reality was a champion pistol shooter, Vietnam Veteran with much combat experience and if I remember correctly, more than one police shooting incident to his credit, asked the rep if he could get a thousand of the PPK/s in stainless steel. Yep, says rep. Sold. said Dep. Comm.

We suffered with that piece of trash for 4 or 5 years before switching to the G-27.

Chiefs, Sheriff's and Other LE Administrators are all subject to marketing. The thing that is crazy, is that some of them aren't even "gun" people. Some of them are even distrustful of those that they consider to be in "the gun and knife club". I no longer work at our training academy, but there were times during those years that decisions were made without the firearms training staff even being consulted, or our input was ignored.

Long way around the barn to say that the people who are given the authority to purchase firearms for LE agencies are sometimes not in the position to make that decision in an informed way.

I still say that accuracy and shot placement trump caliber every time. The 9 is a very effective and proven caliber. The bigger is better crowd will never agree I am certain but when the firearm becomes ineffective do to size/caliber it is a poor choice for just that reason. No I do not think that anything smaller than 9mm/38 special should be considered anymore than a 10mm/44 magnum to those that cannot consistently do well with it. It has more to do with confidence and competency with the given handgun/caliber combination than the size of the bullet/cartridge. I believe many agencies have been changing upward do to popular peer pressure and the desire to "make their officers safer" without regard to the officers abilities.

doubletap - very true and unfortunate that the decisions are made that way as the results are pretty serious. Fortunately we have a LOT of good gun and caliber choices now.

The FBI chose the 9mm Silvertip because it was the most consistent perfomer of hollow points to date. The choice of the Silvertip was a very sound choice, as was the 9mm, AT THAT TIME.

The Miami shoot out made them re-evaluate what they needed a handgun bullet to do. There was one shot that was delivered very early in the shoot out that COULD have ended it much earlier had the bullet penetrated just about 1.5" deeper. The shot hit the arm and traversed the chest wall of (Platt IIRC), and stopped just short of the heart.

If the bullet had penetrated deeper, it COULD have saved one life. Yes, the Silvertip performed PERFECTLY according to it's design.

What they learned was, perfect wasn't good enough. The search for new bullet technology ignited the greatest era of bullet development in the history of projectiles. A lot of mistakes were made (early 9mm 147's), but there were HUGE successes (Hydra-Shok), in bullets, and the discovery of a new cartridge, the .40 S&W.

As it turned out, the .40 S&W with a 180 grain Hydra-Shok, very quickly asserted itself as the ideal law enforcement handgun cartridge. Glock POUNCED on this, and the rest is history.

These days, the modern 147 grain 9mm's make it a nearly ideal LE handgun cartrige, but it's so over-shadowed by the .40 that it hardly gets any notice; which is a shame for those who find the .40 to have a little too much bark.