Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Elk vs traffic and/or livestock

Yesterday I attended a Field Day program where the supervisor of the USFS Starkey Elk Project (Oregon) presented a review of about 18 years of research. Briefly, they have about 25,000 acres of spring, summer, fall deer/elk habitat high fenced and have had opportunity to study livestock and wildlife responses to habit manipulations (logging), age of breeding bull effects, and effects of human encroachments etc in well controlled studies.

A few of his observations in a nutshell: When elk move in, mule deer move out. When cattle move in, elk move out and mule deer stay put but restrict their movements. In fall or winter when only a few areas are supporting high quality forage, the animals are a bit more tolerant of one another.

Four wheelers, rigs, and mountain bikes will clear elk out of an area. A single pass, restricted to a road each day, is enough traffic to move elk to more secluded areas. Deer and cattle are tolerant of traffic. There are no data establishing how much traffic is needed to acclimate elk and turn them into park animals. Food shortages (i.e. snowed over winter ranges) and hunger can eventually over ride these responses. A closed road with no traffic has no effect on elk behavior.

The mountain bike response was a surprise. Thoughts are that the closing speed is sufficient for the elk to interprete the bike as a threat (predator). Hikers and horseback people are viewed as a mild threat, and elk will simply move out of sight but not vacate an area.

Logging and fire creates lots of new forage in a forested environment and is a good thing. Elk can increase. Over time though as trees take over, numbers must decline because the forage base declines with canopy closure.

For a shortened bredding season and hence a condensed calving season, a population needs to support 4, 5, 6+ year old bulls. Long yearling bulls (18 month old spikes) can not get the job done and the subsequent calving season is greatly extended. The value of this is that a condensed calving season puts all the calves on the ground at once and the predators are simply prey saturated. The predators simply can't affect much of the population, because all the calves get mobile enough to escape in a brief time. With an extended calving season, bear, cougar, coyotes, wolves, etc may have a 2 to 3 month window where they are exclusively searching for new born elk.

They do have a web site where one can view or download the results of their studies. Here's a link:

Link to Starkey deer and elk studies

Eighteen years....makes me wonder how many "Researchers" were employed and for how large a waste of our tax money.

Absolutely AMAZING data as well!! Imagine. Elk don't like 4 wheelers and folks on mtn bikes!!!

Another huge Govt waste of money. Then again...... USFS, what ELSE would one expect.

FN in MT

FrankN237:
Sorry, but I disagree on the waste issue.

I do agree that research is expensive, but waiting around for mother nature to make things happen and then hiring people after the fact to try to document things is a complete waste. I for one would rather spend $$ on wildlife research than social programs for illegals or bridges to no where.

Yes, at times research does prove the obvious. At other times though, there are true discoveries. I for one did not know that elk view a mountain bike with the same disdain as a 600 cc 4-wheeler or Ford 350 running nothing but headers.

Going back to some of the obvious....Another aspect of their research is that they can wrap very specific numbers around their findings. They can tell us how far the animals move, and how much country, and specifically what type of country is needed to provide optimum habitat. The additional benefit is that they publish their findings for all of us to read. If we have folks out there with definitive knowledge, have them put it out there in print so all of us can benefit.

Those aspects help those managing our public and private forests and rangelands do a much better job. For instance, if RMEF dollars are to be spent on habitat improvements, the well read manager will have the knowledge needed to maximize the benefits from those dollars. They will place those improvements well away from disruptions and foster maximum benefit to the animal.

Those same findings also benefit me, when I expend significant $$$ and time in the pursuit of a fine bull. In just the last couple of years, I've substantially changed how and where I look for elk, and it was not due to reading Sports Afield or Outdoor Life.

Good luck this fall, 1Minute

Most of us have known for a lot of years that motorized traffic move elk. I don't hunt where there are mountian bikes,but I consider them in the same class.Particularly bike riders have less manners and trail etiquette than any of the other riders.Screaming,yelling as they speed down mounatin trails can not have a calming effect on elk.

Same thing with cattle. Elk leave,but will move back into an area once the cattle leave,but usually it takes few weeks.Obviously,beef producers are not going to admit this about thier grazing permits on NF,and the DOW or Forest Service will not push it too har because the AG community has not only a strong lobby,but usually end up feeding elk thorugh the winter on the ranch forage

Anything that makes unnatural noise,in my opinion, move elk.Even pack strings moving into an areas signal the elk that it's time to move.

I have not observed deer moving out of elk habitat.Mostly because, from what I have ssen,deer do not compete with elk for feed,and are not usauuly in the same habitat.Where I hunt the deer are usually in the tranistion zone of oak/sage brush to aspen, maybe a liitle higher.Elk are usaully in the aspen,spruce/fir zones,or higher.

Although the research is a valuable tool I find it disheartening that information from hunters,etc is never considered very much, at least here in CO.

Example. There were many reports from hunters after the 2008 season that winter kill in 2007-2008 had really hit hard in deer herds. The DOW countered that they did not see such evidenc and the low kill was due to warm weather and the animals being scatterd.You can even go to thier website where they posted that information.Fast forward to the statistics published from the 2008 post hunt herd counts. Duh!!!!!!!!!!Deer herds are down 15-40%. Not a peep out of the DOW and in many areas where there was significant winter kill, you can still purchase a 2nd doe tag.

saddlesore, i hear ya on the CDOW and winter kill, i hunted 62 for muleys last year, the bio said they didnt have any more winter kill than normal. this year they came out with stats saying 34% loss! off just a bit huh!

as for the starkey study, i kinda thought all that was posted was common knowledge. glad the verified it!

That is interesting stuff, particularly about the mountain bikes. I regularly use one for scouting trips on closed/abandoned dirt roads and have to say that in my personal experience, wildlife barely even seems to notice me when I'm on my bike. Slow uphill, fast downhill and virtually silent. About the same reaction I get when I'm cross-country skiing on those same roads in winter - more mild curiosity about me rather than fear. This is however, mostly mule deer and bighorn sheep. I don't bike in elk country as often.

But... If that's what the study shows, I guess that's what it shows. Maybe there were the noisier bands of boisterous bicyclists in the area. I could see that bothering wildlife.

On the other hand, ATV's? Hah! The neighboring farmer uses ATV's extensively during deer season. We see deer & coyotes high-tailing it from his property onto the farm I hunt, and a few minutes later we'll hear the putt-putt-putt. He often tells us he never sees any game. Go figure...

This isn't what I've observed in the area south of Twin Falls, ID, commonly called the South Hills. In the last 10 years, we've had an influx of elk moving north out of NV. It's true that the mule deer population is considerably lower than what it used to be, but we've also had extended periods of drought accompanied by a few years of severe winter kill. It's hard to say what the effect of elk is on the deer. I have, however, seen elk and mule deer in very close proximity many times.

There are a LOT of cattle grazed in that area but the elk are coming anyway. I've seen elk and cattle within 100 yds of each other, both seemingly content and totally ignoring each other. A couple years ago, I was bowhunting deer in the area. I spent an hour watching a herd bull with 17 cows and a couple very shootable satellite bulls harassing him. I got some good pics of the smaller bulls, but I had to sneak through a herd of cattle to get close enough (spooked cattle sound like a Sherman tank when they decide to evacuate). The whole bunch, cattle and elk both, was in an area maybe 40 to 80 acres.

This is a very popular ATV and biking area with hundreds of machines all over every road every weekend. But, the elk population is expanding.

GuyM: Regarding the mtn bikes, they said that flight response from bikes was always a visual thing for elk. In those studies they had people and elk packing GPS collars. Responses to rigs and 4-wheelers was often based on sound alone. I always figured elk were sensitive to traffic, simply because, compared to deer, a road kill elk is extremely rare. Yes, they get hit, but I probably see 50 dead deer for every road kill elk.

Something that will come down the pike from there in the future is that all rigs and hunters will be packing GPS units. That will be some interesting animated stuff to view, and will probably humble us hunters when we find out how close were were, but did not see anything.

Back to the traffic deal... A fellow dropped into our Wy elk camp to visit last fall. Obviously he had been without company for a while, as I thought he would never leave. We don't typically stay up till 11:30 in elk camp. His complaints were that he had come early, scouted about abut 150 square miles via continuous 4-wheeling running every road for 3 days before the season, seen over 250 elk, and then could not find one to shoot during the 9 days he had been hunting.

I had seen elk every day in the same area including several fine bulls. In every instance, they were within 20 yards of timber line (2,500 ft above the valley road) or feeding in clearings at least 2 to 3 miles from the nearest motor vehicle access.

Unfortunately, I'm getting old, but I'm still trying to get as far from roads and trails as possbile. Good luck this fall,

RockChuck: I too have seen deer and elk together, and even elk mixed in with cattle. My wife actually took a buck out of the middle of 12 elk one morning. It's not a habitual thing though. We've lived in this portion of eastern Oregon for some time, and used to do extensive scouting beginning weeks before elk season. I most instances though it has been for naught, as we come over the hills opening morning to find 200 hd of cattle were herded in a couple of days before the season. A little frustrating at times, but that's the price we pay for living in the west and hunting public ground.

Our elk herds are gradually increasing and spreading well out into desert environments where they were non existent 20 years ago. We're also seeing a gradual decline in mule deer numbers. Cause and effect??? Without some control and good numbers, I don't know. 1Minute

I'd be hard pressed to say that there are any real rules to the elk/deer/cattle/people spatial relationships. The research may be valid for Starkey.

Nature is pretty complicated. We see elk in cattle quite a bit. In our country one needs to factor wolves and grizzly bears into the equation. Elk are being seen calving lower and lower, even amongst cattle here in Wyoming. Just last week I saw elk mingling with cattle. As I continued up the mtn I ran into a sow grizzly and 2 cubs that I'm convinced were hunting elk calves. Cattle aren't real fond of the toothy critters either so both species are going to be where they aren't. The same thing is happening with what moose we have left.

Like Saddlesore pointed out if elk do move out away from cattle they soon return. One reason is cattle are better at utilizing older decadent forage. This allows easier access to the tender more palatable plant parts. A summer cattle pasture often becomes a fall/winter elk pasture.

As for the bikers I can't stand seeing grown men in tight, short britches either.

Sounds like another lame study for turning everything in sight into a "wilderness area",so only a select few can access it.Especially Outfitters.

It's pretty tough to beat the money wasted on elk research conducted in the Sybille research unit that wyoming runs.They managed to halter break a half dozen cows and bulls so they could lead them in the wild during the off season and see their reaction to various forms of traffic in National Forest. A co worker was a biologist at the time and was assigned to the research director who was some women from back east with $100k worth of grant money. The elk never left the research unit,but by the end of three years,they did trailer up well and lead like a 4H project.

The biggest factor that is always left out in research.Is the shear amount of land mass that is present in any National forest or public land that wouldn't sustain elk even if you banned people from setting foot in it.

G and F in their greed spend more time worrying about how to maximize license sales rather then what the area really needs.

When I'm fortunate enough to draw the tag.I kill a bull elk every time within a 600 yard area,that lies within 3/4 of a mile from a major US Highway.I've killed elk with a Jake Brake screaming in the background.The area itself is simply to good for elk not to be in it.People or not.

Ralphie: Yes, here in Oregon we often see elk occupying pastures almost as soon as cattle leave. Some good heavy cattle grazing can condition the ground by removing the mix of old and new herbage. All that subsequently regrows is high quality forage that requires no sorting.

The wolves and to some degree bears have altered elk distribution in the portions of Wyoming we frequent. Most notable to me is that the elk are not hanging out in large herds like they used to until the breeding season begins.

We've seen some wolves, but no packs where our party hunts in the Wind Rivers. We've watched individual wolves go after deer, but we've not seen an individual take on any elk. We only hunt about 100 square mile area and the elk, moose, and high elevation deer seem to be hanging in there.

We had a wolf researcher speaking too yesterday, and if a pack moves into a spot the elk will clear out.

1974: $100K for an elk study would not be worth getting out of bed for. That might pay one person for year and buy a pickup and gas so he could run around a bit. Not much chance though that they could really study anything.

Also, tame elk might be useful for assessing food preferences and diet quality. As to wild elk responses to anything but an apex predator, tame elk would be worthless. I've been around some tame elk on foot and in rigs. In either case, one can come within 5 feet of them and they won't even stop chewing their cud. Let a big cat show up though, and they will clear the country.

One interesting aspect with tame deer or elk is that they instantly determine whether the like or will tolerate someone. If one falls in the dislike category, never let them see you unless you're packing a serious club.

To the guys who think research is a waste of money, would you rather have your biologists managing wildlife without any scientific basis? Maybe just manage by gut feelings or by the "that's the way it's always been done" method.
Sometimes conclusions are kind of a "no sh*t" conclusion, but the facts of which are necessary to convince managers to act in one way or another rather than do nothing or do the wrong thing because what they were doing was "the way it's always been done".

exbio.
Trouble is a lot of us in Colorado think that is the way Colorado is managing their wildlife.
One only has to look at the 5 year structure plan documents to come to the realization that 95% of the decisions made are based on politics and money,not sound wildlife management to what is best for the deer and elk herds.

Example.They did three different studies as to why the deer herds were continuing to dwindle.During all three studies they knew they were killing too many deer. Once they accepted that fact,went to draw only,deer herds started to return.

Another example.DOW knew there was a die off of deer herds in the 2007 -2008 winter,but rather than publisize the fact they kept it quite so license sales would not drop

If the "research" (especially by federal agencies) is done without any scientific basis, what is the value?

Must be 'cause you ain't seen me in mine yet!

I too was surprised at the results of the mountain bike interaction. The elk/cattle interaction isn't that surprising to me due to dietary overlap and similar social structures. What'd be interesting to know is how long it takes them to return to their 'normal' routine after the cattle leave.

Do you remember if they gave any causal factors for the mule deer/elk interaction?

I will have to dig through the literature to examine that one. The speaker only had a half hour available and alot of ground to cover. He pretty much just stuck to bulleted statements, and did not delve into the details. I don't know if it's simply some sort of social intolerance or a competition deal. Their diet are quite different, so I can't imagine it being competition for forage.

That would be my guess as well.

The Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies put together a task force about 13 years ago to look at all of the literature and evaluate the potential for competition between deer and elk for resources. The overwhelming conclusion was that there was little or no evidence in the peer-reviewed literature that such competition existed anywhere. That said, there is always the possibility that extreme shortages of food and other necessities in a limited area can result in short-term competition.

Just found the report on my bookshelf. Here is the reference for those who may be interested in reading the whole report:

Lindzey, F. G., W. G. Hepworth, T. A. Mattson and A. F. Reeves. 1997. Potential for competitive interactions between mule deer and elk in the western United States. Wyoming Coolperative Fisheries and Wildlife Research Unit, Laramie, Wy. 82 pp.

This research we're talking about is probably alot more help to people who don't know a whole lot about game animal habits, as compared to those contributing to this discussion.
Some people won't believe anything less than a scientific study when it comes to what animals are afraid of, or not afraid of. Lots of people who call themselves hunters form baseless opinions on animal behavior and they won't listen to two things: common sense and experience.
Latest stupid belief I've heard is that a horse walking across a hillside leaves more permanent damage than a 4-wheeler does.

As far as scaring elk from a bike; drape an elk decoy over you and the bike.