Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Beginning of the end for the big 3?

AMEN!

Jim: I dunno! But don't Leica's come with instructions written in Chinese as well as English?

I'm sure the Zen's and others similarly priced are gonna be great bino's.But I only have so much time; I don't wanna experiment much anymore

Though I beleive this is true (maybe) the problem is the the Teuronic bin makers started off as BMW, Mercedes and Audi but seem to be heading for Ferrari, Lamborgini and Gumpert. They're very different business models.

Another possibility is that sport optics as a small part of their business and the real money is in other optics (Zeiss is the best placed of the three for this).

The difference in this case is they survive the look ... they are good.

Great post Bob.

When I was a child it seemed everyone in my family hunting party used Zeiss Dialyt B series binoculars so they were one of the things I wanted most after college. I remember reading in the magazines about the B/GA T (Rubber Armored T* lens coated) 10x40s making a big splash right around that time � 1983 or so, and when I could finally afford them in 1987 that is exactly what I bought. I remember VERY well, because a friend bought a pair and lauded it over me, that the P* phase correction coatings appeared on these binoculars not long after that in 1988-1989. The only physical difference I recall in the glasses was that mine had a small �T� engraved opposite the focus ring and his a couple of little triangle/diamond thingies which I can only speculate were meant to be a prism These were really a great binocular for the time and the friend I gave them to several years back still uses them today.

After I made the gift of them I went with a Leica 8x32 BA as the smaller/lighter thing was the trend at the time. After only a season I knew these weren't for me so I traded them on a pair of 8x42 BN's. I love these and still have them and think they are optically still more than most could comprehend and probably the toughest design ever. They are heavy however...mine are right at 34 ounces with Butler Creek type flip up lens covers. What I found after a couple of seasons was that for my eyes and for real "all around" use I really prefer a 10x glass. I probably would have just gone to the BN 10x42 but was working in Kansas City at the time and received a Cabelas gift certificate as a Holiday gift so I decided to visit the new store there. It turned out they had the Zeiss 10x40 ClassiC B/GA TP on a special at $649. Applying my gift certificate and having them mailed to my home to avoid tax I ended up $549 out of pocket to replace my old companions and since then have used the heck out of them, in NA, SA, Eurrope, Africa and the Pacific Rim.

I do believe that technology has surpassed these great (Classic is a perfect description) binos in the form of the FLs and Ultravids ( I have both), but both my trucks have 10x40 ClassiCs in them for a grand total of $1189 for both pair from Cabelas.

The only equivalent bargain I�ve ever found on glass was the 3-9x40 Leupy Vari-X IIs I bought for $29 at a going out of business sale in the �80s.

I�ve reported here before my experience with Pentax, when they were the �equal of the Big 3� dejour. Based on that debacle, when even one pair, let alone an entire series, of these contenders to the crown has proven itself for decades in the field I may feel comfortable again in trusting a hunt to them.

The big 3 will continue to innovate and the Chinese/Japanese/Korean/whatever asian will continue to copy their designs and technology. About 2 dozen different manufacturers have binos that look like El's for goodness sakes and all are made in the Asian Rim.

For the Minox fans here one should not that they now have Chinese in addition to German an English on their website. AFAICT they don't make anything in Germany.

Steiners too have a big component product (and assembly?) plant in SW China.

So like our other people who avoid "made in china" stickers they may be using Chinese bins even when they don't have the "made in china" marking (assembled in Germany). Just like trying to build something that doesn't have fastners made in China or Fastex style connectors or any number of components.

The world has globalized guys. Get used to it.

Jim,

I have a question, and it is merely of a curious nature. I have no wish nor intention to seem argumentative.

My question is this, just what do you see as technological innovations in the alphas glass?

Now to serve to frame my point of reference, I will try to illustrate a couple of thoughts. With the exception of the Abbe Koenig prism system of the Zeiss FL, everything else from a $20.00 BSA or a Barska on up the quality scale is a Schmidt-Pechan roof prism. Technology has got us to the point where it is no longer either particularly technically demanding, difficult, or even expensive to build a binocular. Computer controlled CNC operations have seen to that, as well as a lot of industry wide optical experience. It just is not difficult to build a roof binocular anymore. Same with coatings. a lot of industry wide experience has really simplified coatings.

When Leica and Zeiss finally got a good handle on the Schmidt-Pechan roof prism and finally figured out how to properly phase coat a roof prism binocular, the alpha class glass had a serious technological and innovative lead. At that point (IIRC phase coated alphas showed up in 1988) it was a very technologically demanding process that required materials and knowledge that were proprietary secrets of the highest order, and did absolutely require a high degree of input from very highly skilled technical people to put it all together right. It was also expensive .

Pentax got the first technological intrusion with the first phase coated mid-priced binocular in about 1996 or thereabouts. We've seen mid priced steps up the ladder from non alpha manufacturers since. Pentax again with the DCF SP, Vortex with the Razor and now these Chinese entries.

So, we seem to be left with the advantage to the alphas in their use of the highest quality glass they can make, the best quality parts and engineering they are capable of, and by constructing the most durable binocular they can. That is a significant advantage I will grant, and I have never tried to say there was not superiority or even equality of the lesser binoculars, regardless of brand. I'm not sure if that is innovation or philosophy. That gap will probably shrink too.

However, the process of building the optic itself is not much of an innovation any more. It used to be, but everybody else caught up. The amount of innovation still possible is probably big, but we have just about gotten to the point where it is pretty easy to produce all of the optical quality the eye can use anyway.

As I said above I think these will impact the mid-price arena more than the alpha anyway. The comparisons to the alpha are the ones that get made, because, well they are the alpha, and it is the best comparison.

So if you like your alpha enjoy it. The whole point to these is to fill a need for decent optice below the very expensive glass. I can just about guarantee Zen Ray does dot see themselves as the next Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica.

Peace of mind from spending on product durability, longevity, and absolute top quality, in my mind anyway, is the real reason to justify an alpha purchase.

To the point of the original thread, the longevity of the alpha will hinge on "how much will people ultimately spend on an optic?" They have their advantage, how will they use it in the future?

Chinese copies of Rolex watches look real nice until the finish starts wearing off and they quit running after a few months.
Chinese riflescopes seem like a great deal until you look through them side by side with a top quality scope and then they break when you put them on a heavy recoiling rifle.
The Zen-Rays looked like a great deal until they fell from the seat to the floor of a Safari truck and were out of action for the rest of the hunt.

I don't see why the chinese can't manufacture some of these items to the same standards as the top brands, they just haven't done it yet.
They make computers, telephones and just about everything else now but I have yet to see them make an optic that truly compares in quality AND durability to the big 3 and a few others for that matter.

I actually hope they do. I'd a lot rather be paying a lot less for equal quality but it hasn't happened yet. I don't think the big 3 are much worried..........................DJ

Just remember when Hyundai (I know it's Korean) burst on the scene in the US maybe 15 yrs ago ( I forget exactly). They were a piece of crap. Nowadays tells a different story, as they make some of the most reliable vehicles made. They were a joke then, but now they have Toyota nervous, and they have admitted it. Like many others I said when I first heard of these chinese super binocs that time will be the ultimate judge. They do at least have the optics part of the equation figured out though. Optical engineers (koshkin), JB and other experts have proven this part to be true already.

How come you're looking for a Zeiss spotter, not something offered by Zen-Ray?...

FYI, I use Lecia Trinovid 10x42's, and true, I want a Zeiss spotter. Now tell my why it's any of your business.

None of my business, just curious why if the "experts" say Zen-Ray is so great, why anyone would look elsewhere?

You do savvy this thread was referring to the binos, not spotters, right? And the experts are talking "optically" since that's really all that is known right now, got it? And I do consider Koshkin and JB experts and that's who I was referring to. What else can I answer for you?

Their spotters don't make par, but their binos do?

That would be the consensus thus far.

It doesn't take a genius to search various major outdoor and shooting forums to see what people are saying about them. I won't explain it to you since I've never looked through them.

My point being, Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski are known quality goods and the chances of Zen-Ray (or any variation thereof) putting them out of business is about as likely as me waking up tomorrow to CNN reporting that Obama's birth certificate was located and he was declared ineligible to be POTUS.

If you'd take the time to read what I've said in this thread all the way through you'd find we agree on that. It would have saved you from asking me a dumbass question.

Dumbass previous post I guess.