Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Your first strike odds @ 400 yds???

Just read an interesting article and wondering what you guys and gals think.

Lifesize deer target broadside @ 400. Any shooting position you want except using a concrete bench.

What are the odds YOU could hit the deer,anywhere???

I would choose the prone postion with a bipod and a flat area to lay upon. A nice flat shooting rifle with no wind or mirage:



If I've been practicing and know the rifle/load well I would say I could hit it with confidence on the first shot. I've practiced at that range with a few rigs and have been able to keep em in the kill zone especially if I knew the range.



If it was an unknown rig/load or one that I have no experience with, then its a gamble for sure .



Out past 400yds, if its windy or hot (mirage) is where things start to get interesting..................



MtnHtr

Since that's my gig and have made first shot kills on big game at over twice that distance, I'd say 400 yds is a chip shot and say 100%....I havent missed at that distance YET... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Is the range known?? If you have to estimate the range, the odds go down. If the range is known, it should be fairly easy with some kind of rest like a backpack or bipod. miles

Like other that are practiced in shooting at distance I'd say 100% at 400 yards. The difficulty (unknown) when shooting known long distances is the wind but deer are longer than tall and this make wind a little less of a problem for an "anywhere" hit as you state.

Laser range finder,bipod,shooting bags,backpack,sling, whatever you want to bring along.

Likewise,with a bipod and pack, shooting prone it shouldn't be a big deal to hit a lifesize deer target anywhere @ 400 yds.

I practice @ that particular yardage and can usually keep 3 shots inside 3 " if the wind's not whooping too bad.

Here's the crux of said article;

#1 shooter- Layne Simpson- 257 Weatherby/100gr bullets, prone w/ bipod and using binocs for rear rest. Elite #4200 2.5x10 scope

Result??? A clean miss....

#2 shooter-Craig Boddington- Custom 300 mag w/ VariX III 4.5x14 scope

Result??? A clean miss...

#3 shooter-Dave Petzal- Custom Lazzeroni in 7.21 Tomahawk w/ 2.5x8 w/ new Boone & Crockett Reticle

Result??? A clean miss...

#4 shooter- Wayne Zan Zwoll- Pre-64 M-70 in 270win with an old Lyman fixed 2.5x scope.

Result??? A hit somewhere on the deer target-not specified...

I'm no long range expert but thought the results would have been much different. After all this is a Lifesize deer target standing broadside at a known range. The target ain't gonna move,browse,etc... All you gotta do is hit it somewhere in the hair.

They did hit it eventually. They ran the course a total of 3 times and batted 5 for 12. Not bad for baseball but not to spiffy for hunting...

Prone, bypod, shooting my 300 RUM, 200 Nosler Accubond at 3150...........no problem. She hits about 12" low where I have it sighted in at. Or, my 7 RUM, same deal, shooting a 160 AB @ 3300.

Hold just under the hairline, squeeze trigger...bang flop, shows over.

I practice this @ 300 very often and wear out the 2" orange dot I put on the bull.

Tony.

Forgot to mention the wind conditions that day.

5-10 mph @ 4 to 8 o'clock...

Well, I will be the one to say it first, 400 is beyond the range I would take a shot on a deer. Especially the size deer we have here in Alabama/Tennessee. Elk I will go that far but you have a much larger kill area. I have equipment that can do it but do not get to practice enough to feel 100% sure over 300. But to 300, I would take the shot everytime. I think that is called, knowing your limitations. JMHO TM

PS In Alabama it is hard to find a place to practice over 200 yards, with most ranges only 100, so that might have something to do with it too. :-)

Wow! That's kinda pathetic. Even with the ole Sharps 45-70 a hit at that range is a given. I wouldn't attempt it without my rangefinder and sticks, but with them, not a problem. Course I've ran a few thousand rounds thru it at a hellava lot smaller targets. Surely there was a misprint.

No misprint just the facts.

All blamed the wind which is why I noted the conditions.

Layne Simpson blamed his 257 Wby/100gr combo. Said the wind blew those 100gr bullets all over the place. He switched to a Jarret Custom 7 mag/ 140gr BT/ Swarovski 4x16 scope and fared better in the next event, the Tower shoot...

Wind and light bullets are the pits. At 1000 I've had the wind blow them big 535gr. bullets off as far as 2-3 feet on a windy day. Those days I'm shooting just to be shooting.

I would say 100% with bipod and turrets in all but gail force winds. Even with a 10mph crosswind it would be a gimme. Take away the turrets and bipod and it becomes a guessing game. I would say percentages would be cut in half without the use of those two.

X-VERMINATOR

cheaha,

Looks to me that they didn't know their load.

Hard to believe with that kind of talent behind the trigger.

Tony.

I don't know what to make of their poor shooting. They all were notified of the shooting/articles. Flew up to Kenny Jarrets little slice of heaven and proceded to shoot the events. They all took at least 4 different rifles to shoot the 4 different events.

If they didn't know their load,well, that strikes me as BS.

Interesting article none the less...

BTW, It's all in the August edition of Field & Stream....

I was given a subscription for Christmas and this is the first edition that has interested me in the least.

Those results are pretty amazing from the shooters.

For a "flat/er" shooter class rifle the come-up from a 100 yard zero to 400 yards would be in the 5 to 6 MOA range, the "standard 308 come-up is only 8.5 MOA or so. Figure they had thier rifle sighted 2 MOA high (2" at 100 yards) and it's now in the 3 to 4 MOA need are to make a good hit, that's only 12" to 16" of drop from their 2" high 100 yard zero.

Wind for those rifles, even at 20 mph full value would be in the 4 to 5 MOA range (16 to 20 inches)

This is all "near data" just quick number from my head but it's hard to imagine a miss from 3 of 4 shooters if they had some knowledge of long/er range shooting.

I guess the lesson is: Know the distance, use a good rest, adjust the scope to the range (range data card) or have a calibrated reticle if you're gonna shoot 400 yards or more, or hunt larger animals.

Thanks for posting that info, interesting.

I shoot "silly-wet", and clays at over 500 regularly, with more than one rifle that I own.

If I knew the yardage, and was shooting the right rifle, no problem at all.

But I don't hunt with those particular rifles, my favorite hunting rifle is a .58 Hawken, and this year I am training with an iron sighted Ruger No.1 in 7X57, which, incidently I can nail a 1 gallon jug of water at 200 meters with a 160 grain bullet, and a pop can a 50 yards right after that.

From the kneeling position.

The ram at 500 meters is very close to the depth of a smallish deer, and I have seen more than a few go down from the standing position .

from the kneeling they are easy, and from prone, a cinch.

BUT, the distance is known, and the target static( not moving)

catnthehat

It should not be a problem with known range and a rest. I would not shoot at a deer like that ( just me) because I don't want to just hit him anywhere. I have a self imposed limit of two hundred yards. I am amazed at what you say the results were from those guys. miles

I just read the rest of the posts, and not as amazed as some that they could not hit any better than that.

Seen it before, on strange range , strange conditions, etc.

at our 1K range last year, a friend's boat showed up,
(the Outpost of the Empire Range is on a river) and wanted to shoot my 6.5WSM. I new all the fellas and know they can all shoot.

Calling the wind for them, only one of 4 hit the outside of the target, which is a 4'X6' piece of steel plate. None hit in the
24" center circle.

My son started snickering, and one of the guys said
"I'll bet you couldn't hit it, smarty pants!" My son was 13 then, and had never as yet fired that rifle, let alone at 1K.

He laid down on the beach, asked for the zero and was told
"2 minutes left windage and 1 minute high"
At 1K , for those that are not aware that is a little over 2 feet left, and 1 foot high.
SMACK! about 4" of the center. He grinned and was told to reload.
He went at it again, was stopped for a windage change, then
SMACK! about 3" away from the first one, a little further down from the first.

He shoots quite a bit, and has learned to relax, read the wind, check alignment, etc, at extended ranges so that when he is in a hunting situation at 200 yards, everything will work out.
Clay birds for him from the kneeling at 200 yards are not a problem, and at 500 meters he hits them regularly from the prone.

But we ALL have had lousy days when we couldn't hit the GROUND!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Catnthehat

After reading this, I've decided I must be the world's luckiest deer hunter, having killed several deer from the bipod with my crusty 25-06 and the 100gr bullet (mostly Btips) at approximately that same distance (give or take a few yards, 425 being the farthest, one shot per cervid).

Killing oodles of woodchucks with the same outfit, in the same area, gave me enough confidence to try the first one on a standing broadside shot at a 400+ yard doe in 1988. Haven't given it a minute's thought since if the shot presents itself and the wind ain't howlin'.

Odds?

The odds are better I could fire then stab the target with a knife before the bullet arrives. I would wear Nikes of course...

cheaha,

Perhaps these gun writers should write alittle less about shooting and shot alittle more eh ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

I believe you hit the nail on the head.

What gets me is they brought thier rifles of choice,customs no less. They also went on to say how much they practice year round.
I'm surprised they even printed the article after their poor showing. Course they painted it in such a way as to blame the wind... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Those 5 to 10 mph winds are a bitch...

well I saw this post in the am and decided to head out to the range and got the following results at 379 yards (lasered) on a 10 inch gong, wind was light 3-5mph at 90 degrees to the firing line. I used the printed ballistic cards I made with all three rifles and loads. Took one shot with each from prone/sling, prone/backpack and sitting/shooting sticks.

.308 Model 7 with 2x7 BL, 165 deepshoks 2 for 3 (prone sling miss)
.308 Model 700 Target rifle, 168 Federal match 3 for 3
.35 whelen Ruger 77 with pacnor barrel, 250gr Hornady 3 for 3
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> maybe I should learn to right for magazines <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

varmint,

You obviously know you guns and loads well.

And, you weren't even using a bypod like they were. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Nice shooting.

Tony.

Ok I reread the post and saw that the wind was from 5-10mph form 4-8 oclock. To me that makes the showing even worse <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

From my .35 Whelen and 250 gr loads(worst ballistic combo I have) the max drift for a 90degree wind is 8-16" at 400, considering the wind was swirling it would more likely be 0 to 6" in either direction. Move up to a decent load in a measly .308 (150xxx at 3000) and the full drift value is 5.5-13" at 400. I didnt even want to look at numbers for the "flat shooting" stuff they were using.

The more I thought about it the culprit was the loose nut behind the trigger.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

And before someone says Im being to cocky I fully admit my biggest mystery miss is a coyote at 200yards from the prone with a target rifle...got to love it when your humbled.

That article wasn't referring to complete misses, they called a miss the kill zone, i belive a 12 inch circle on the NRA deer target, and i think between the 4 of them they hit 5/12 and were themselves surpriesed by there lack of success. They did much better from the tower stand.

A miss on a 12" circle is a LTTLE bit more realistic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Thanx for the info , Martin.

The rifles they were using were a lot bigger than Mr. Van Zwoll's 270, also, which may have had something to do with it.

Catnthehat

The "Tower Shoot" portion mentioned the vital hit. The long range prone shoot where they shot horribly did not mention any such restriction just hitting or missing the lifesize broadside deer target.

They picked their own rig so recoil is not an excuse IMO....

I found this part interesting. The only hit recorded was with the lowest powered scope! Seems to reinforce the notion of some (starting to become mine as well) that 4x or 6x fixed scope is all that is needed when big game hunting.

That is pathetic shooting!!!! Especially with a .257 Weatheryb (No matter how light the bullets are). I truly dig my dinky .25-284 with 100 grain bullets at 3,500 fps. I recently hung out a 9 inch gong at 600 yards. Wind was gusting at 8-15 mph. My first three shots off of a portable shooting bench went into a 3" group. The next 10 were all over the gong, two missed (although slightly) as the wind started swirling. I couldn't read it to save my life. I would have loved to be there and watch Layne eat some humble pie, since he is so arrogant about his shooting ability and all his custom long range rigs. Flinch

Layne seemed especially irritated about his pisspoor shooting. He blamed the 257 Wby/100gr combo then went on to blame the wind which was only 5 to 10 mph. Would have loved to see the expression on his face...

Wayne went 3 for 3 @ 400 yds. If you throw out his score then your left with 2 for 9 for Layne,Dave and The Bod... Might wanna be a thang if they're shooting.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I've read that Wayne has/does participate in competitive shooting (not sure which discipline), so it seems the Indian may be important than the arrow! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Flinch,

I really can't believe "Mr. STW" didn't use one of his STWs.

I mean, come on, 5MPH wind, shooting a 150 or 160 at the speeds he claims to get out of his custom 7 STWs ?

WTF, it don't get any easier. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

Balderdash, flim flam, call it what you will, I have always said that MOST of 'em don't practice what they preach.

Recoil? I'll bet they would get peed if you suggested any of them step down a notch and see if the lesser recoil made a difference!


Wind? No excuses. All knew what they were getting into. I have never been down there, but Mention Kenny Jarret and the very first thing that comes to mind is "BEANFIELD"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

NOT 100 yard bench, ot any other of the close stuff.

Loads? Not even close! All should have been prepped, after all , they were shooting their own ammo, right?

Caliber? refer back to the previous.

The only one that seemed to be prepared to shoot was Mr. Van Zwoll, and by the sounds of things really got the excuses flowing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Catnthehat

I couldn't agree more.They can use whatever excuses they want but the bottom line is that they didn't know their ballistics or couldn't judge the conditions.I practise regularly on our silhouette range and using an improvised rest or bipod I am very consistant at 385meters as long as the wind is reasonable.I consider a 5-10mph angling wind quite reasonable.

Roger that, Pointer! High powered scopes are so very tempting and a grand illusion with big game I think. It is just very hard to convince someone that you don't shoot better with a rifle on a telescope!

I have used high powered optics on some of my hunting rifles in the past, but only because they were already mounted and always kept them turned to the lowest setting.

I prefer a 6X or 4X, and have a '60's vintage Kahles that I am going to put on my RugerNo.1 RSI , but only to mess with .

That rifle is going into the field with a receiver peep on it this year.

Catnthehat

at 400 yards off of a bipod and 5-10mph winds, i think i could do that with some consistency. at my local range these are the conditions just about everyday. a 2'x2' steel plate at 300 yards is what we shoot at most of the time. i have hit it freehand on more than one occasion. it is almost automatic off of the bipods.......blake

I never missed a deer at 400 yards, but once I had my hunting buddy thinking I'd missed at 35. Pshaw! I was really aiming at that small limb just 20 yards out. Good shot I thought. Didn't want the deer to get poked in the eye, the light being poor and all...

Thought I'd be cute once, while my bud was across the road waiting for a woodchuck to come back out several hundred yards across a hayfield. Sitting there in the truck and glassing "my" side of the dirt road, one popped up about 50 yards away. Snuck out with the 25-06, rolled a round in and proceeded to stir up dirt well-beyond the little pizzer with a "peep shot" offhand stab.

Previous shot with that rifle had been at over 400 yards in another location...some dummy forgot to rezero the elevation turret aferwards. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Bud raised up on an elbow, looked around in my direction at the dust plume spreading across the field and asked how the plowin' was coming along.

My regular practice distance is 400 yds. and I shoot at an 8in square with a Remington Sendero cal. 7mm Ultra Mag. I use cross sticks from a sitting position fireing a 160 Accubond at 3300 and seldom miss. Scope is a 6.5x20x40 Leupold with target turrets in a Leupold long range base. I usually shoot on 20x. Hitting at 400 yds, even with a cross wind, does not seem too hard.

An interesting post. My first impression is the writers had missed in range estimation. ( I didn't read if they knew the distance?) Out beyond 300 yards it becomes very tricky for me! Without a laser, I would not even place a small wager on being able to call a distance correctly of say 375, 400, or maybe its 450 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. This is also the distance where our trajectories are diving like the end of a parabola.



Interesting choices for Van Zwoll showing up for the competition with a very old caliber, an old rifle, and an old out of production scope. And he was the only one who knew what he was doing from the group.

Causes me to remember outfitters saying "know where your hitting at all distances".



I would have expected the others to have done better with their newer equipment.

Thats more humiliation for Simpson.



But after all is said, I am the first to admit, I can miss a deer at any distance, but I have hit a few farther away than I knew.

Do you think this casts doubt on the ranges claimed in hunt mag stories "Sheep taken at 330 yards" stuff? I'm sure 'nuff not an expert, but don't write "expert" stories in mazagines or attempt quarter-mile shots on ANY game. Is this a case of these fellows "talking (not taking) a long shot"?

--Mike

Who has ever said they were talented shooters? The only mainstream gun writer that has credentials is Ross Seyfried, who won the handgun world championships.

Just because the other bunch writes about guns and hunting, and get free loaner guns and hunts, doesn't give them credentials as shooters.

What this really points out is that darn few people have the skills to be taking long range shots on game. The right equipement is the necessary starting point, but it only puts the bullet where it is aimed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am in no way braging here at all , but .... sako 7 rem mag no bipod or sticks just my fanny pack no range finder at the time of shot= 1 dead antelope at 82 3/8 inches officially. Later range finding put the goat at 624. Point of the story ,
know your gun this was my only rifle for over 10 years . I know how to shoot it. What happens to some of the guys I know is they slip seat a new gun or 2 every year and never get to know the gun . If it doesnt split hairs out of the box they dump it and move on. Practice is what will make you connect when the time comes.

Damn! How far did you have to hold over for that???

This reminds me of what happened in Skydiving, when they came out with the professional rating. It required you to land, standing up, in a 5 meter circle.....10 times. You had to declare before you got in the airplane that you were going to do it.

All the experienced guys proclaimed how easy that would be but if you missed the circle once or touched even a hand, you had to start over. It was amazing how many guys who always talked about how good they were, decided they did not need this rating, after trying for it a few times. Cut out a lot of the "I can do that any time any place" statements that had gone on for years. It is one thing to claim to be able to do it. It is another entirely to have to do it repeatedly, in front of witnesses. Not can you do it most of the time, when the conditions are right, with no mulligans, but can you do it every time. My guess is that many of us would fail, shooting under those kinds of rules but that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. TM

You're correct, folks talk a lot of talk. But, if you're at a long range rifle match and ask the fellas if they can hit a rather large target at 400 yards a lot of them will reply that they can but of course you'll probably hear the same reply at a cowboy action shoot. (My money would go with the long range crowd.) Certainly depends on the place of the asking and the folks asked.



ALL

Deer season is upon us, maybe we could put the "Hit the deer" test to folks around here.

Original post stated hit a life size deer target "anywhere" from 400 yards, any position except a concrete bench (I believe any bench would be out of the question).

Let's put it to the test.

I suggest a piece of cardboard, 16" tall by 36" long. Place it horizontal at 400 yards (hang it off the ground so we don't get ground crawler round hits) and shoot 1 round. Go down and mark the target a hit or miss and then back to the line and fire a second round (just for fun). Assume the head end of the cardboard is "A", the back is "B" the tail is "C" and the belly is "D".

Post your results here. First round, hit or miss, then the inches is was from "A" and "B". Post the same for round # 2, hit or miss and again the inches from "A" and "B". We can all then plot the hits on our own target and "play along".

Post the cartridge, bullet, specifics of desired, rifle, optics/sights, position, conditions, altitude, temp, wind, whatever.

I have a few items left over from a previous "fun shoot" and I'll send a few goodies to some of the better performers or teller of tales.

I have Leupold bases, Nosler partition bullets, a few wildlife prints and some other hunting related stuff.




I'll start a new thread about it.

Sounds like fun. I'll get my bud from work to shoot it with me next weekend...

This thread has reminded me of when our range first made a 400 yard target available.
With two different rifles that both placed 5 shot groups in less than 1" @ 100 yards, I shot 8" groups @ 400 yards from a bench!
And another surprise was one rifle didn't drop as much as it was suppose to, and the other dropped a lot more. It is so important to know where your rifle hits.

Until I had this experience, I had just always thought that if your rifle would shoot MOA @ 100, it would be 4" @ 400 etc.

Since then I do my load testing and development at 200 yards and that has helped. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Very true! It's amazing to see what your rifle will really do @ 400yds. Some shoot much better than anticipated and some worse.

Years ago I had a 300 yd range and did all my load development from that range. Some of my best 300 yd loads did only fair @ 100...

As far as holding MOA goes, I am really proud when I can shoot 2" or less groups at 200 yards. I've done it, I'm sure most folks here have as well. Its just that thinking that automatically you'll have 2"gr. at 200, 3"gr. at 300 etc. is bull. The rifle may be able to do it, but the rest is up to you.

All I can tell ya is come help me drag him out. Cause that puppy is dead. I practice a lot at that range. Mainly due to the size of a couple of food plots I hunt. Have killed several deer standing under the pines in the back of em. One shot...One dead deer. So...yeah...stick em out there...I'll gladly smoke him for ya.

Reminds me of a comment made to me by a very well known international type shooter after I remarked that I was surprised at my fairly decent placement in the final standings at an international level tactical match. He remarked " if you keep up with this type of competition you will soon notice that after the noise dies down & the smoke clears you can look around & say, " hell, these famous ***** can't shoot""
Semper Fi
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CL, Been there too many times when someone "called" a flyer, etc. to know that it is hard to shoot at that distance. Can some folks do it? No doubt in my mind but there is also no dought the ranks would be thinned if everyone who said they could, had to. JMHO TM

distance is relative. If you never shoot regularly over 75 yds. 400 is a long way.
I am a long range freak & my longest distance, witnessed, is 1800 yds. ( target was a 4" wide by 22" tall mini pepper popper, took 6 rounds since there is a 1200 ft elevation difference in elevation between my practice area & the witnessed location. obviously I have made several un-witnessed hits to be able to "dope" for the witnessed shot.). No I do NOT intend to attempt big game shots at this distance unless they are called osama. I regularly ( as work duty permits) shoot NRA long range (1000 yd) matches. 400 yds is a chip shot.
What gets me is the "excuse" of 5 to 10 mph wind causing their misses. Heck around here that isn't even considered wind. 10 to 15 is a light breeze & we have fired 1000 yd matches in steady 25+ with gusts over 30. Now that will cause some serious misses.
Dave's "challange" shoot sounds like fun we ought to give it a whirl. mebbe we can get some famous writing jobs too, ya think?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A 4" wide target @ 1800yds??? You 'da man!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What kind of scope you using to see at that distance?

I can't imagine me hitting anything at that distance.

Scope is a Leupold 4.5x14 w/MilDot reticle ( 338 RUM, 300 gr. Sierra Match HPBT, Moly, just shy of 3000fps). Actually I have found that anything over 16X magnifies the mirage to such a degree that the target gets too blurry to see.
If you can imagine it, you can do it. If I can ever get real good at doping wind @ 1800, 1000 or less will be a piece of cake. Talking to folks that shoot the big Black Powder cartridges at 1000 yds & beyond, they say that shooting .22 rim fire @ 200 or so is good practice, I,ve got a CZ that is accurate to 250 yds. & it seems to prove their point. Give it a try, you may surprise your self at how good you can be.
Semper Fi
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'd say running 10 for 10 at 400yds with anything resembling a sound rifle and quality glass,is akin to the difficulty level of reliably scratching one's own ass.

100%,is a given...................

What are the acceptable excuse parameters there, if one attempts to scratch his arse and instead, winds up with his paw on his left ear? Most of the folks I know that get upset about someone shooting at game at 400+ yards, appear to have that problem. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



Probably ain't in the top 5000 when it comes to reliably hitting things at 400 yards, but have done it enough times to feel pretty good about it if the chance arises.



No shortage of folks I've met that have opinions on it though, many of whom could have that arse/ear problem, since they're convinced no one can hit anything more'n 200 yards out and consider it to be a troubling concept.



Wish I had a dollar for everytime someone has told me a hunter has no business shooting at anything that's "too far" away. Once made the mistake of taking my 25-06 HB to our range right before deer season one year, when the range was teeming with 50 and 100 yard paper-plate swatters. Got my arse reamed for even thinking of taking that thing out for deer..."looks like a varmint rifle of some sort, WTH you doing with that?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Took two gents from this Board out yesterday and both was 100% LongRange Newbies. Neither had twisted a turret,nor had ever engaged at what most would term "long distance" before.

Gave 'em a 30 second course on keeping the reticle square,the nuances of turret dope and how to procure a rapid field rest. Both schwacked targets smaller than Deer vitals at 700+ yds,with both a lowly 7-08 and one of them newfangled 300Whizzums. All done via typical fieldrest,from the MPAJ position(Monkey [bleep]' A Jug).

One went on to do what I'd term pretty tidy work at the 425yd line,on targets in the clay pigeon size realm. Both would state without hesitation,that after the brief intro and a coupla yanks of the trigger,that 400yd pokes on Venison Vitals is simply a done deal.

Needless to say,both left with mouths agape at their newfound abilities and had new plans on how to spend amassed loot. 400yds is dick,that's why I started them at 700 plus and immediately got their collective minds right on the ease of connecting beyond a typical zero range.

Lotsa smoke and mirrors floating around and many are bent on making the most simpistic tasks,into adverse difficulties.

Shooting ain't difficult,for the folks that actually do it(as opposed to talking about it) and 400yds is farrrrr,from being "far".

A guy makes his own "luck" and good gear + practice is a great first step in that direction................

No argument there, especially with them last three sentences.

I can still recall how tickled I was over 40 years ago, when I killed my first woodchuck beyond 100 yards with a Hornet and thought that was a mighty big deal at the time.

It occured to some of us long ago, that if we could consistantly render rodents lifeless at ranges beyond 400 yards, doing same to a whitetail with a capable rig wasn't much of a challenge.

Some years ago, my old huntin' bud thumped a bedded doe in the punkin at about 390 yards (lasered), from the bipod with his M700ADL 6mm Rem and a 95gr Btip. He offered to donate the tagged deer to some guys that'd gotten one doe and were heading back home to the flatlands that night, (first day of the season, we were there all week, they weren't).

When they got around to surveying the damage (one guy said he'd take it if'n it wasn't "all shot up") and my bud related the shot, one of 'em basically called him a liar. The guy whose farm they were staying at, calmed things down by saying he'd seen us "lay out there in the fields like a buncha drunken hobos" and kill woodchucks a helluva lot farther away than that doe was. Also mentioned he didn't think it was much different to whack a pasture poodle at distance, than it was to poke a bedded deer in the head, since the target appeared to be about the same size to him. Bud had to ruin the moment by declining any honors, since he'd hit the doe under the ear and said he'd been aiming for her eye at the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They happily took the deer and went home, the noisy feller never came back up there to hunt afterwards and I ain't started missing him yet either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

When the Queen Bee still hunted deer with us, I had her M77 25-06 dialed-in 3 and a half inches high at 100 yds, which kept the 120gr Sierras about two inches low at 300yds, IIRC now. She killed one doe with it from the Harris, at 350 yards with a bit of urging and advice, otherwise she killed deer with it in the woods, offhand, at closer ranges every fall.

Some years later she handed the rifle to a cousin of mine that was carrying a Marlin 30-30 and told him to "just center it" on a doe a couple hundred yards across the hollow from them. He did, it died, she got a chuckle out of the way he whooped over that one, him having never killed a deer beyond about 80 yards previously.

I've been watching this thread with considerable interest ever since it appeared and though I have responded earlier I didn't really say all I wanted to because of concern over how others would react. I practice regularly at 400 yards off cross sticks and from other field positions. I don't mean to brag at all but folks 400 yards IS NOT THAT FAR! I never even thought of that as "long range" until I started reading what others had to say in various forums like this one. Now I have missed deer a few times at ranges well under 400 but the chance I will miss the vitals of a deer sized animal at 400 yards is just about zero and I have hit a lot farther than 400. I don't read the wind well so I do limit longer shots to situations where the wind is low. Having the right equipment and practicing is the key. You have to pull the trigger on distant targets a great deal to really learn what you can and can't do. In my opinion, anyone trying to establish some arbitrary distance past which it becomes unethical for anyone to shoot is just being silly. I have encountered numerous people who for one reason or another just couldn't shoot. For them any shot at an animal past 100 yards was a shot they probably shouldn't take. Ultimately the decision to shoot or not to shoot depends upon too many varibles for anyone to generalize. I hope I'm not coming accross as bragging or arrogant because I certainly don't mean to be. I had rather take a close shot than a long one but I also want the ability to take the long one if the need arises.

No agruements there. I know several who have no business shooting past 50 yds.

I enjoy punching paper @ 400 yds and for me it's no big deal to keep 'em within a 3" circle. I guess my years of Groundhog and Crow shooting helps but most anyone can learn to shoot if one takes the time and effort...

My brother and I recently got an eye-opener on this, from Stick himself.

Suffice it to say, whacking something at 700+ yards while laying in the dirt and getting rained on, was a new experience. I never would have believed it, had I not tried it.

No smoke and mirrors involved, and no voodoo. If you have a good rangefinder and a scope that repeats, all that's left is to practice.

While one session doesn't make me an expert, with my Leica 1200 and Stick's 7-08, I wouldn't wanna be a deer within 700yds...

Within 400yds....no problem.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

dave

I'm one of the guys that has never turned a turrret after sight in.

But I'm going to start practicing. To help with what is a new game for me, I am going to rotate my scope 90 degrees. The Zeiss Conquest dials are reversed from the Leupie, with the scope rotated in a position with the horizontal turret at the top, left and right is natural without having to remember which way to turn the adjustment. The same way with the vertical turret poaitioned on the left, up and down is naturally oriented. Turning forward will be down, turning backwards will be up.

Now I probably have everyone turned around, but it makes sense to me. Now I just need to get to clicking in 50 yard increments. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



With this method, would a 30-06 be as likely to hit @ 600 yards as say a .300 Winnie?

There is no "likely".

An accurate rifle,with good ammo,sporting a scope that has repeatable adjustments,will poke the group where one wishes,largely regardless of distance.

That assuming a guy that can shoot and favorable atmospheric conditions.

You'll freak out,like everyone does..........................

A Target Turret,Cheat Sheet & a LRF will do some amazing things combined with actual practice and a smidge of common sense.

Only difference is you'll crank up a bit more elevation. Assuming they both shoot, that is the only dif. The 300 winny will be doing more damage though due to higher impact velocity.

Well the score is 100 % on every deer I have shot at 400 + yards. (about 50% on prairie dogs at that same distance)But I have to confess that I do cheat. I don't shoot at every deer I see past 400 yards, Only the ones I know I can hit and only when the conditions are such that I know I will hit them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Learning how to cheat is what makes a good long range shooter. I don't "poke and hope" at deer. I work out long range shooting on prairie dogs and other varmints.

Stray Dog, I shoot a custom .300ultra wearing a Ziess Conquest 4.5X14 with target turrets. At our club the 600 yard range is restricted to people who've gone thru a qualifying process. I finally got off my dead arse this past month to get certified on the 600 range. They train you on range procedures, and want to make sure you and your equipment is up to the task. Your required to put 60 rounds in the black on a high power target (a 36" circle). Well, I keep hearing how 600 yards is suppose to be expotentialy more difficult (not 6 times) than 100 yard shooting. So anyways first thing they have you do is dial in your 600 yard come-up and shoot a target at 100 yards to confirm your data (they use a grid system set up for various cartridges- magnum rifle, service rifle, standard rifle). Now remember this is the first time I've shot past 300 yards, I confirm my come-up at 100, fire my spotter at 600, shooting prone off a bypod with a sand sock in the rear. First shot is in the 9 ring at 10:30 ( aprox 7 1/2" from the center of the target). Range officer gives me my correction, dial it in, next round drills the X dead center. Range officer takes a look thru his spotting scope, decides I don't need any more coaching, leaves me to finish my relay. I fire 9 more shots, 4 "X's" 5 10's, groups are centered on the edge of the "X" ring at 12:00, 5" group. I drilled the spotter they place in the hole 3 times when it was marking shots in the "X" ring. Might have been beginners luck, but as Stick says, you'll freak out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good shootin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It was quite breezy today but we did some shooting @ 300 yds anyway. Winds were out of the east @ 12-20 mph, mostly 20. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, hitting a deer size target was no problem. I was holding into the wind a good 6" and was hitting 4-6" off. The wind is a good teacher-learn to trust your wind drift numbers. Without allowing for the wind, you will have a hard time at longer ranges.

Cheaha, I've been pretending to be a benchrest shooter playing with VFS (Varmit For Score) matches this summer. My weapon of choice has been a SUCKS VS in .223 with a Weaver 36 power scope. Every time I think I've got this wind thing understood I'll read the flags, figure my hold point and fire. Guess where my bullet goes?????????????? The exact point where I placed my dot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Al

Prairie dogs love a stiff wind and heavy mirage. Heck 6 to 12 inches of drift isn't much of a wind. I've killed dogs at 300 yards with more than 6 feet of wind drift working. I've never been dog shooting when the wind wasn't blowing. At least I do get plenty of practice shooting in it.

Did it twice this past winter on caribou. Both lasered. One at 467 and the other at 443. 300 RUM with 150 grain Swift Scirrocos, Burris Ballistic Plex Reticles. 2 shots, 2 dead caribou. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Aw c'mon. Tundra cows shouldn't count. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I see by the cartridge selection, that you've now discovered something a tad more modern than stuff invented at the turn of the century, lobbing large chunks of lead. There's hope for us all!

Good to see thee again, was beginning to think they'd wrapped you in skins and let you drift down to Kuskokwim Bay. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Made over 400 on a running antelope, everything clicked -- direction, good follow, good identification of sex, nothing behind it to hit (house?), running to right (I am left handed so this is the easier way to swing). Don't know if I EVER would attempt this agan even if the circumstances came up the same way. Have done it with a 7 mag on Elk. First strike? A buddy with binocs and no license called the low shot, then high, #3 he said "good". We have done this more than once for one or the other of the group. The other thing is some of the dead shots I have made -- did I really do well or was it a fluke?

K Drake

I'd say pretty good. Shot 2 antelope last weekend, lasered at 342yds and 387yds. 1st shot hits on both. Heart on the 342, spine on the 387.(misjudged the holdover a bit on the second) BRNO ZKK 601 30-06, 165gr Ballistic Tip, 58.5gr IMR4831, old Simmons 4-12x40AO, 200yd zero, prone unsupportted, light wind from 4 o'clock, sun overhead. Shot one earlier in the day between 200 & 300. Didn't have time to laser that one so chose a compromise POA and took it through the lungs above the heart. It must have been closer to 200 than 300 judging by the POI.

Just like it's supposed to be done , right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Catnthehat

Actually I'd prefer them to be closer but on that day there was no way that was going to happen. Used to be able to say I never shot a big game animal further than 200 yds. Now I can't even say that. I prefer to "hunt" in the field and shoot at the range (or at gophers and prarie dogs.) Long shots mean I didn't hunt very well.

Long shots mean I didn't hunt very well. [/quote]

I hear this often, and I am partially in agreement with the statement, but only partially.
It usually comes from people who live in or around the game rich hunting areas. People who will get many more chances if they screw up a stalk.
But it seems like an unncecessary limitation for a hunter to impose as a hunting barrier. It seems to me, for someone who has traveled a long way to hunt, finally to see a shootable animal, what is needed is a quick sizing up of the stalk closer situation! What are the percentages of actually getting closer without ourselves or someone else spooking the game? If it is too iffy, a practiced long range position is in order.

I wonder how many animals are gone when stalkers finally get closer?

I've pasted stuff at spittin' distance and mighta dialed some dope on others.

While I can't speak for anyone else,I personally like toting a rig capable of both and can't imagine hamstringing my options.

I just like to slam stuff and distance largely doesn't mean dick to me.....................

I'm no "expert" but most of my aquaintances are less so. They alway ask the same question, "What can I get to become a better shot"? The answer is always the same."A membership at the rifle range and a bunch of bullets."

While more trigger-time can't hurt .... I submit that having an experienced shooter spend 20-30 minutes to observe/critique your bench efforts can usually produce a quantum leap in a begining shooters quest for consistency and accuracy. Just doin something "wrong" ... over and over .... rarely leads to doin-it right. After their confidence is built at the bench, do the same process for offhand standing/kneeling shooting.

Otherwise, it's like a juvenile expecting to become a good "lover" by spending more time "whacking his porcupine", versus spending 30 minutes with an "articulate" pro, who can offer immediate feedback on proper technique. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .... not that I would know .... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Silver Bullet

Into every Adversity ... a little Life must fall

Silver, you are one REAL sick puppy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Next thing you know someone's gonna start a thread on the different names it's known by <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Itppowell, you are very right!

Most fellas that ask advice from me at work get the same reply, because they don't shoot nearly enough to get familiar with thier rifles, yet they don't feel that they need to or want to practice as much as some of us do.

They think they can get an expensive bunch of gear and start
punching X's.

Some really want to learn , however, and make the comittment.
Catnthehat

I agree, but the "stalk" is the hunt for me. I like to get close and have on occasion run out of daylight trying to get closer. I do carry a rifle I'm comfortable taking long shots with but prefer close range.

I only travel a few hundred miles to hunt antelope so it's not that big a deal to me.

Stalking is what I am really into when hunting, and when I shoot long, it really isn't that far for some.

However, I am a long range and a 3 positon target shooter, and when I speak of shooting skills, it is painfull to watch some at the range that can't hit a 4" group at 100 yard from thas bench let alone offhand or from the prone.

These are the people I like to help, because it gives them an added confidence when hunting.

Long range (400 plus) is an art in itself, and shouldn't be frowned upon , as it is by some.

It is easier said than done, for sure.

Catnthehat

I chum around with Catnthehat, he can hit targets at well beyond 400 yards, He knows how to do it, he's an excellent shot and owns gear to do it. That being said I only took up this sport about 6 years ago, and I can't reliably on the first shot hit the turkey targets at 385 (our range distance) I almost always hit the second time ( I would say I am at least an average shot fromthe guys I see at our range). At 300 metres it's automatic, anyone that says they can hit 400 + without a ton of practise and knowing precise distances is nuts. It's really hard to judge distances beyond that accuratly and guaging the hold accordingly. Knowing the exact distance is the key, when Cat told me where to hold his 1000 rifle on the target it went BOING when I hit it, but that was Cat's expertise not mine.

I couldn't agree more.

I have killed several critters past 400yds even in the days before laser rangefinders (I have two Leitz military optical rangefinders in addition to the two newer laser rangefinders). This year I have shot 3 shots at game and have killed all 3 animals from 40yds to 809yds. The 40yd shot was at a whitetail doe in Northern Idaho on thursday with my .416 Rem Mag. I finished a 28" 3x3 mulie for a buddy @ 359yds with one shot to the neck (it was neck or texas heart shot) with the same .416. And my deer at 809yds in failing light the day before a big storm was to roll in with my custom .300RUM. One thing that will make it easier for long range shooting is the use of target knobs and a drop chart. Kentucky windage should be a thing of the past for anything past 4-500. Modern calibers shoot flat enough that 400 shots should be relatively easy with hold over and a 200yd zero. Target knobs allow for exact holds and eliminate the height guestimate. The .416 I shoot wears a 3x9 Leupold that was sent back for a top knob and my .300RUM has a 6x18 that was also sent back for a top knob. Practice at all intended ranges is above all the most important thing you can do. I built both of these two guns this year and the .416 has nearly 150 rounds through it (despite shooting 1/2" groups the first load I tried) and the .300RUM has about 300 at ranges out to 1000yds (.416 to 500yds).

Talent is as talent does.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Even if they hit on the second and third shots, they missed the first one and that's the one that really counts. With their own equipment, at a known distance, in their line-o-work, I'd consider anything but 3-for-3 (in the kill zone) unacceptable. Also, blaming it on anything but the shooter is a total crock. After all, it was the shooter's job to 1) pick the appropriate equipment for the job 2) practice with it until proficient and finally 3) pull the trigger on a gimme. Glad I don't subscribe to their mags..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Non-repeatable performance, synonymous with luck, is sometimes good and sometimes bad but never to be confused with skill.