Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Guide rifle and Moose, which bullet?

Logger Ron,

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

My info on the Hornady bullets comes straight out of Hornady's own manuals. Both bullets, regardless why they were originally designed, are presently offered as components in forms that have identical working speeds. (And both are purported to work at 458 Winchester speeds. The flat-nose even has a slightly better ballistic coefficient FWIW.) Like the Remington 405, neither is an especially spectacular bullet when run into heavy, tough targets. I imagine one would have to make some serious blunders behind the gun to have issues when hunting moose (or elk) with them however. That said, there are better bullets.

Klik,

I think you've nailed it pretty good. I don't recommend the 405 Rem across the board... I give qualifications for all the bullets I've tested in Marlins, NEF, Ruger No.1s and 458WM.

The deal for me is that the 405 Rem has worked well on bear for me at MV over 2000 fps - complete pass thru - 3/4" entrance and exit, 2 1/2 ft penetration. The 400 Speer at MV of 1865 took 2. First "blew up" near hide. Made a 3" wound and massive hemmorage. Second shot was finisher at 85 yds. That was found in armpit of offside. First was never found and never made exit. I swore off the Speer from that moment to this on anything larger than a N. whitetail.

I compressed a bunch of bullets (45-70) in a vise at the same pressure. The 400 Speer and 350 Hornady RN were "pancaked". The 405 Rem was barely flattened at the nose! I've a friend who shot a decent blackie with his Marlin 45-70 using the 405 Rem. Leaving the muzzle at about 1940 fps it impacted the right front shoulder and exited via the offside ham - 4 ft penetration.

I'm wondering... did Remington change the hardness of the lead alloy in recent years? I hear rumors of that due to the bullet not expanding at the low factory velocities. The several hundred that I bought a number of years ago seem, to me, to be very tough! They do have a thin jacket but the core is much harder than the Speer or Hornady that I have in my collection.

I agree, however, that for moose I'd use a hardcast (since Swifts and some other premiums are just not available in Canada). I have a good supply of 465gr hardcasts that will flatten anything in N.A. In my Ruger No.1 Imp, I use the 350 TSX at 2470 fps.

Has anyone seen or tried the new Barnes "Buster"? It looks good based on promo material.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I shoot the Rem 405gr JSP because it is cheap. I launch it out of my guide gun at 1800fps. I shot an Elk head on, with the bullet entering and following a length of the spine, exiting the spine and lodging back in the grass bag. The bullet expanded to 1". It didn't break up. It certainly didn't fail. It made a massive wound channel for over 2ft.

I don't know how tough the Remington is compared to other jacketed bullets, but I believe it is very adequate for Elk. In my opinion, if you are comfortable at close range with a 375H&H loaded with softpoints, then you won't see much difference with a 405gr Rem JSP launched at 1800fps or greater.

I've shot a lot of hardcast out of my 45-70, and it is OK, but it drills a 1/2" hole in and out. I much prefer the massive wound channel of an expanding bullet - since I'm not hunting armor-plated grizzlies.

Dober this is a little late but if your speaking of being in bear country and want some extra assurace perhaps, I like those "hardcast" Piledriver bullets from Beartooth & Co.

I have used the Hornady XTP bullets in my .458 win mag at 16, 17, 18 and 1900fps velocity speaking. They turned inside out most of them shooting through a piece of 5/8 drywall, 3/4 inch plywood backed by a tin trash can. The bullet jackets separated sometimes and bullets balled up looking like a bloob of metal.

I also shot the same type Hornady bullet 350 grn XTP .475 dia. in my 470 Capstick and they did the same thing at 1500 & 1600 fps. This distance was at 75 yards, I would not recommend any XTP bullets for hunting moose or elk. They just seemed to be to fragile and soft on inner core.

I have also shot those 405 Remington bullets and they stay together. However, if I were on a big hunt, I would want my hardcast bullets for my lever guns, both the 45/70 and .444 Marlin.

Well, if you can find them, I love the 300 gr. nosler partition. While I haven't shot a moose with it, I've taken a black bear, several wild hogs, and 7 head of african plains game with the partition, and had zero issues.

maddog

I have killed deer with the 350 round nose from my GG. It works. Folks report that the RNs are tougher than the FNs. I got a zillion of the RNs a couple years ago. PM me if you want a handfull to test.

Hornady does not make .458" XTP bullets and it is not advisable to use the .452" XTPs designed for handguns in a 458 Win Mag.

This was from a big caribou not a moose. The 405 Rem often acts as a sabot... the hard lead core leaves the jacket and acts as a pretty good semi-hardcast. The core weighs 350 grains and penetrates well with or without jacket.



That being said I like the Hornady 350 grain bullet. It expands down to 1400fps and hangs together at 2000. I also like the 300 Nosler partition which out penetrates any other expanding bullet in this caliber.

I bought a bunch of 450 grain FN Hardcast bullets. They penetrate 14" of knotty spruce and 21" of wet newsprint. I couldn't get enough wetnewsprint alone to stop them. Recovered they could almost be shot again. Wound channel about the same as a 22 Hornet with 55 Spires in width but of course much deeper.. Not sure that's what I would want to use on Moose.

More on guide bullets. This from a study I did on some of my outdoor rigs. The newer 405 grains do seem a bit softer to me. Near the bottom the 1" mushroom is a 405 Rem in newsprint at about 1800fps. The .70 caliber 350 Hornady looks shrimpy in comparison. Despite the big mushroom the bullet penetrated well. The 44 Rem Mag bullets are from an original Ruger Carbine. It works surprisingly well too.

The 250gr tsx(AKA The Flying Ashtray) loaded to 2600fps knocks the crap out of critters.

Can you load it at such high speed for a rifle as short as a guide ?

Mine has a 22" barrel, I believe.
Load is form the Barnes manual BTW.

That's quick, for sure.

350 grain bullets for 45-70; l to r: Speer, Hornady FN, Hornady RN. 1413 fps, 1403 fps, 1349 fps respectively. All fired into wet newsprint.

ok boys, everybody has their favorites. Mine is the 300 gr. nosler partition. I've killed hogs, bear, kudu, gemsbok,blue wildebeast, warthog, impala, blesbok and zebra with that bullet. Most at 1950 fps, out of my 45-70 GG[ported]. I expect to get a few more critters with that same bullet. Your mileage may vary.

maddog

Maddog the 300 Nosler Partition is a good bullet that does stay together but I wanted more bullet weight for bigger critters, when using my 45/70 lever gun. I like those Remington 405 grain bullets for bigger critters too. I also believe the Remmy has made them a bit softer in the nose section compared to others in the past.

Nothing beats those Beartooth "Piledrivers" (hardcast bullet)for penetration that I have found and I do mean lots of penetration. The Hornady bullets just don't cut it, as they do come apart when the velocity gets much over 1350fps. I have pushed them a lot faster out of my .458 Win mag bolt gun into wet newspaper also. A great bullet for whitetail deer, NOT big bears in my humble opinion.

have put hornady 350gr FN's into 15+ moose and bear. only ever recovered one, and it was a perfect mushroom. took 4' of moose to stop it, 60yrd shot, quartering away. found in the offside hide.


all animals went down on the spot when hit. huge fan of that round.

I know that I am a little late on this topic, but I got my Maine bull permit this year, and this subject is something that I have been researching like crazy since finding out I got picked in the lottery. I am planning on using my Marlin 1895 Cowboy, and I have looked at lots of ballistic charts for what seems like every bullet out there, cast, jacketed & solid. I ended up selecting the Woodleigh 400 Grain Protected Round Point because of its ballistic coefficient of .340 (ballistics below). For comparison, I included the ballistics for the Hornady Interlock 350gr flat nose bullet with the same muzzle velocity. I forgot to change the zero to 50 yards, but the velocity & energy aren't impacted by that.

My plan is for it to leave the cowboy's 26" barrel at 1900fps over 50grs of Reloader 7. There will be one in the chamber and one in the tube, and the rifle will be zeroed at 50 yards because I want to get as close as possible. That said, things don't always work out as we hope, so I thought I'd select a bullet that would maintain moose type energy out to 200 yards. I didn't find too many bullets with the BC of this Woodleigh, and most were considerably lower and had the typical rainbow trajectory associated with the 45-70. The Woodleigh does a little better, and it's designed for penetrating big game with controlled expansion, which I think is a must for a moose bullet. I know that lots have been shot with lots less and with lots more. This being possibly the only moose hunt I ever go on, I want a humane kill and I don't want to take any chances so this is where I'm at right now. Just under 7 weeks until my October hunt, and I am chomping at the bit.

JACKFISH! Sorry on the misprint understand, I had my .470-Capstick on the brain at the time and repeated myself. No big deal because those XTP bullets are JUNK for big game such as moose, elk, bear in my humble opinion. They just will not stay together and shed their jackets almost everytime out the gate.

Now if someone really wants a top penetrating bullet, Swift A Frames in a jacketed bullet will take the prize you betcha. In a "hard cast bullet" I'll give the salute to those Beartooth "PILEDRIVERS"........Amen!

I would say you need atleast a 400 grain bullet. I'd go with a buffalo bore 405 grain soft point, or if your concerned about penetration go with the 430 grain hard cast one which is like 1925 feet per second. Or the 500 grain FMJ is also an option. All cost around $60. Whatever you pick, practice before you go so you know how the recoil feels and how the trajectory is, set up targets at 25, 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. Practice fast shots at 25 yards in case of a charge. Moose can be dangerous especially during the rut.