Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting i need a scope to play!

fellas...
i decided this year that i would get involved with competitive shooting to at least try it and see if i enjoyed it. so, i started with some high power and sporting rifle competitions (200 yards), and had an absolute ball! then, my 10 year old daughter started shooting sporting rifle competitions with (against) me, and we have been having some of the most fun this summer with this stuff! (i still can beat a 10 year old girl pretty easily)

so, since we had so much fun on the 200 yard shoots, my daughter has started asking if we could shoot longer. so, next year, i decided we will continue with our 200 sporting rifle and high power matches, but we will pick up f-class shooting as well.

i am down to scopes now. we will be running factory varmint rifles with some mild tweaks, but, what to glass them with? i need 2 of everything, so cost is most certainly a factor. i found a couple of scopes locally that will work in my price range, but my question is, are they good enough to be competitive with? i do not expect to go out and win, but i do not want equipment to be what is holding us back.

the scopes in question are the sightron s-2 6-24 (i think - it coulda been a 6-20?) and the nikon monarch 6.5-20. both scopes have 1/8 moa turrets. i liked the sightron's view better, but thought the nikon had better clicks.

can anybody provide feedback on how repeatable these scopes are? are they going to be acceptable uses for our purposes? is the 1/8 clicks going to be too difficult to work with? is there a better solution in sub-$450 scopes? these are the only two scopes available locally, but i'll order online if there's a better scope out there for same money...

thanks for any help!

oh, we'll be shooting out to 1000 yards.

Price of the scope does not equate to competitiveness. My scope cost me $385 and I win my share of matches.

You need to tell us what kind of competition you are involved in because this will have an impact on the type of reticle you should use.

For instance, in F-class many of the top shooters like a very simple reticle without all the fancy do-dads and hashmarks. I prefer a very thin crosshairs with a small target dot, but that kind of scope is useless for anything else; there is no ranging and you would have a problem using this reticle in a hurry.

Sightron has had good reviews but I prefer these scopes on my competitors rifles, not mine. I shot with a Nikon Monarch UCC 6.5-20X44. It's a phenomenal scope for the money, absolutely outstanding but it had two defects for my game: 1- not enough magnification and 2- the Nikoplex reticle was too thick. It would cover the X-ring and most of the 10-ring, not a good idea for F-class. It was very repeatable and I still have the scope, but it's not on my F-class rifles.

You neglected to tell us what caliber you are shooting to 1000 yards, but irrespective of that, you will need some type of canted rail (20MOA) to get you there and this will make it difficult to zero at 100 yards if your scope does not have much internal travel. The Nikon will probably not do it, I doubt the Sigtron will. My scope does not do it either, but I do not use the rifles at 100 yards, unless it's with a thermometer target.

Good luck to you.

competition will be f-class.

chamberings will be 308.

don't care about 100 yard zero - i'm setting these rifles up for 500 yards and further.

what is it about the sightron you don't like? i'm not a sightron defender, just looking to get a couple scopes that will allow us to shoot competitively.

my long range prairie dog gun has a leupold 8.5-25x scope on it w/ a 20 moa base, and i think it is a great scope, but can not afford to buy 2 more. so, i am looking for a scope (so i can buy 2) that will hold zero, be repeatable, has turrets, and allow us to shoot with confidence to 1000 yards in f-class...

thanks for your help!

Great that you are shooting with your daughter, good luck to both of you.
I will be shooting in the F-class National championships next month in NC. For the last 3 years I've competed and won my share with Weaver T-36. The glass is not as clear as the Nightforce and March I compete against but they are $1500-2500 vs $ 400. Weaver has very positive and precise adjustments.Last I looked Russ Hayden had them silver or matte for $385.
The other scopes you mentioned may be fine but I have not used them.
Larry

As FTR said you'll have to go with a rail. Having said that when I mounted my Sightron 36X on my F-Class rifle with the verticle turned to the bottom of the dial I'm 5 3/4" high at 100 yards. Crosshairs are still too high for 300 yards.

Most every one I know who shoot f-Class and have a variable scope never turn the magnifacation down...

While I have both a Sightron and a pair of Weaver 36X scopes, to my eyes the Weaver is slightly clearer. Folks will tell you that the Weaver adjustments are great, I've seen just as many modified Weavers on the line at Benchrest matches as I've seen modified Leupolds.

The only reticle I've ever broken was a Weaver mounted on a 6PPC benchrest rifle. I ALWAYS remove the scope before changing barrels so that wasn't the cause....

I'd lean towards a fixed power scope.

When I first started F TR Class I used a 5.5-22x56 NXS, Then I wnet to 8-32 NXS and now finally a 12-42 NXS. I had thought of a fixed 36X but I mostly shoot in very hot places and find the fixed power too much because of Mirage sometimes, so I went with the varible power scopes.

I use a NP-R1 reticle which also allows me to hold for wind and elevation changes as the string goes on.

On the power, the 32x is really enough for shooting but when I can use the 42x I can dissect the X ring for fine shooting.

Now of course most of that is lost in wind changes not seen anyway.

I have two Weavers T-36, one on my AR-15 in .223 with which I took 3rd place overall in F-TR at TSRA LR last year and (yes, with an AR-15 in .223). The other is on my .308 match rifle with which I just set a club and range record at 1000 yards this past weekend, when I shot a 194-5x.

I must shoot in colder climes than TI, because I'm only in South Texas and I never worried about or wanted to dial down the magnification. The NSX 12-42 is extremely popular at the club, but everyone always runs it at full magnification, regardless of temperature. It's a nice scope, but it's very heavy and would probably take my rifle over the limit. I would rather spend weight on the barrel.

So, if you are looking for 2 scopes, go for the T-36 and you can pick them up at Killough Shooting Sports, for $385.
http://www.killoughshootingsports.com/

The difference between 36 and 42 is very small, only about 17% which is almost imperceptible. On the other hand, the NSX is visible brighter and clearer than the T-36, but it is 3-4 times the price.

My AR has a T-36 and a 20 MOA rail and I can zero from 300 to 1000 yards, with no problem. For my .308, I decided to center the scope for LR, I will not be shooting it at MR distances, so I opted for a higher setup so that 1000yards zero is in the middle of the scope, or actually just a little above. This is a 800-900-1000 yard rifle only. If I were to use it at 600 or 300 yards, it would almost seem to be cheating.

F TR a fixed 36X will be a problem when the mirage gets bad. Thats a fact. I have dialed my 12-42 down to 14-16 many times because mirage was a pia. Now I dont know about your club but I shoot with a few shooters who are pretty good. They are the current US National F TR Team and everyone of them dials down for mirage. I dont know but my scores go up with bad mirage if I dial down. Not one of the US F TR or F Open Team uses a fixed power scope either and before its said we all purchased our scopes and use what we do because we believe in it.

The 42x is a big enough difference to make a difference sometimes. Well thats what a bunch of time behind the gun has taught me. Its nice to have when you can take advantage of it. Scores have improved when I could use the power.

I shoot a 308 and have not found anyone good enough to call it cheating closer than 800 yards with it. If your that man congrats. Where have you been hiding?

Look you do alot to help these guys but lets keep it real here. Very few run fixed 36 scopes on anything but 200 yard BR. Passed that and Mr. Mirage will get you come around 1100hrs most places. Those that do use a fixed 36 in F TR Class, do so to save money but they give up a bunch by doing so. I owuld rather run a Savage F TR Rifle and spend the extra on a better scope than the other way around.

Mirage can be conquered without dialing down, but this is a discussion for another time.

I also shoot with a few shooters who are pretty good, and I don't do too badly myself. However, showing the size of piece of anatomy is not what we are talking about here, the discussion is about acquirng not one, but 2 scopes for an affordable price and the OP can do a lot worse than a Weaver T-36 or T-24 if the 36 is deemed too powerful.

Would I like to have an NSX 12-42 instead of my 36X? You betcha, but only for the bigger lens, clearer picture and higher magnification, but for 2 rifles and at $1300+...

Your priorities are different than mine, I am a barrel guy first and foremost, with ammo a very close second. As long as the scope is dependable and reliable with enough magnification to allow me to precisely aim my shot, I'm good to go.

Back to original question then.
Get the Sightron varible. The fixed 36 scope will cause you problems, if you dont shoot only in early am before mirage gets up.

thanks for the feedback fellas.

i guess my main concern is reliability and repeatability of the turrets.

the day will come when i will use nightforce and its class of glass on my rifle, but certainly not at the entry level i am at, and there's no way i'm willing to put nightforce on a child's rifle...

My big issue with variables, especially the lower cost ones is the possibility of the crosshairs drifitng in position when the magnification is changed. This may not happen when one is paying a lot of money for a scope, but for lower price scopes, I avoid all that by using a fixed power scope.

Also, for the same money, the fixed power scope will have better optics and tracking system than a variable. For my game, that is most important.

Weaver T24. When you move to another scope you will be able to recover your money by selling the Weavers and get a good buck for them.

c/p from another post of mine:
Not having used the Leupold I can't compare. But my T24 does track very well. I go to a 600 yd match with elev/wind at zero on the turret caps, at 200 yards. I come up 13 1/2 or so minutes elev, crank wind around a bit as well as elev. When return to shoot at 200, crank both turret caps back to zero, it has always been spot on. I like that.

And shooting at 600, if I add say 1 minute wind, bullet moves one minute best as I can see via where the spotter is placed on the target. I like that too.

Bigtime, if you are not in huge hurry, Sightron has several new scopes coming out. One already there is there 8-32 andd the next one is a 10-50x60. The rep of that brand is very good and costs are under a grand. If you end up not liking them you will be able to sell easily. Now Nightforce does cost more but they dont stay on used market very long either and there is a reason the top US F Open and F TR Shooters use them. That reason is they perform better than the cheaper options

If anyone doubts the value of a NXS listen to this, while recently at the F Class World Championships, in England, many of us/Team USA where offered 1200-1500 English Pounds for our scopes. Thats a bunch more than we paid but I did not see one US Rifle come back without the NXS still on top of it. That just about says it all.

Lastly try and get a reticle that allows holds off to the side, such as the NP-R1. Holding off for changing wind conditions is faster and less likely to cause a problem (Guys sometimes click the wrong direction) than constantly clicking the windage knob. Figure out the base wind adjustment and then only chnage dial if big change happens.

just an update on my journey to f-class competition...

daughter and i went out and tried a couple varmint rifles to get a feel for what she would like to shoot. i was a little surprised that she didn't like the 308 at all...

so, on friday i picked up a ruger 77 vt in 243, a ruger-to-weaver base (by burris), burris zee rings, and an insert kit. not the most elegant, i know, but keep in mind we're just starting out here and i can't sink a ton of money into her set up. we still need mats, jackets, etc, so this was a good start.

i ordered some brass and 105 a-max's (ruger has a 9-twist... i hope the bullets will stabilize) yesterday.

i got the rifle cleaned up and cleaned out, worked the 2-stage trigger over a little and called it good enough. i installed pillars and glassed the gun adding atomized steel to the glue, and am getting ready to scope it. i haven't ultimately decided which scope she's gonna run, but it will either be the weaver t-24 or sightron 6-24... i'm halfway waiting on sightron's new scopes to come available before ordering the glass, but expect to have the glass in hand within the next 3-4 weeks.

i don't really like the burris base, but couldn't find anybody else making a similiar product. i think burris did a sloppy job of making them, and of course one of the screws arrived w/ stripped threads. i went ahead and fixed it, but i probably should've sent it back to burris. the rings and inserts look terrible, but i'll wait to get all worked up about them until after i see how they do or don't perform.

anyway... moving forward...

Don't laugh, but my .308 is built on a Ruger M77, so I use the Burris bases and the Zee -rings and it has worked out quite well for me. It's light and, so far, it's holding up. I do check the screws frequently. I have not used Loctite and I have been reluctant to remove the screws to put some in as everything is working well right now.

I am sure you realise that .243 is not a legal F-TR caliber, but the only downside is you will be competing in F-open. The NRA classifications are the exact same for open ot T/R, so that's not an issue, F-class is F-class.

So, what's the next step?

Can you guys elaborate on the mounting system you are discussing? I have a M77 that I am waiting on PacNor to rebarrel and would like to know what is available besides the current factory rings that I currently use.

Thanks for any input!

As you know, the Ruger M77 comes with integral scope mounts that fit on top of the receiver in scalloped inserts. This is fine for most folks and is actually a plus because you can mount a scope on the rifle and not have to pay for rings or mount. Also, these scope mounts are very solid.

The problem comes in when idiots like me decide to make the Ruger M77 shoot at 1000 yards. The issue is in order to do that you need a sighting system that will provide at least 30 MOA of elevation from a 100 yard zero (so something like 70 MOA of total travel.) I have scopes that do that, such as a Nikon tactical; a fabulous scope with a 30 inch tube and 10X top magnification, and 90MOA of total adjustments. But when you get into higher magnification scopes, there is a corresponding drop in MOA range, probably du to the growing size and complexity of the internal lenses; the erector tube gets tight.

So one can get around the limitation of the scope by tilting it forward (elevating the rear.) You can do this with a canted rail which is the most popular option and the scope remains straight on the same plane, or you can use shims. There are two places you can use the shims. You can shim under the scope base and thus distort the tube, or you can shim inside the rings.

There are no canted base that fits a Ruger M77's scalloped inserts. You can add a rail on top by drilling and taping holes but I did not want to do that, my hand drill's battery was run down.

Burris sells a set pf Ruger to Weaver adapters. These adapters fit in the Ruger scalloped cuts and provide short pieces of Weaver rails. However, those short pieces are not long enough to solidly mount a 4 or 6 inch piece of rail and which you could mount a canted rail and then the righs and the scope. It gets messy and complex.

So we go for option 2, the shims, but the shims in the rings. Anyone who shims a scope under the bases of the rings to provide 20 MOA or more has screwed up his scope.

Burris sells the Zee rings which use polymer inserts to create cants in the scope's relation with the rifle, while maintaining the scope true and stress free. You can buy a package of inserts that provide 0, +/- .005, +/- .010 and +/- .020 inch offsets within the rings. These insert are placed on top and below the scope and then into the rings and as the rings are tightened, the polymer inserts rotate to maintain a straight scope tube. You can either subtract elevation from the front, add elevation to the back or do both,

In order to provide a predictable cant, the distance between the rings must be know. Once that is meassured, it is simple to determine the required insert offset

The rings are light but strong and the inserts weigh nothing and they work very well. They also cost very little compared to canted rails and rings.

From Brownells:

118-410-990 Weaver M77 Adapter $38.00
118-420-430 1 Inch high Zee rings $55.00
118-626-019 1 Inch insert kit $19.99

That allowed me to mount my T-36 so that my 1000 yard zero is about 7 MOA above centerline on my old Ruger M77.

I cropped this picture to show you the arrangement on my Ruger:




Sorry for the fuzzyness, it's only a 10 MP camera and it's cropped pretty tight.

You can see the front ring on the left, mounted on the Burris Weaver adapter. On the right side of the bump (screw for attachment,) you can see where I mounted a bubble level using the rear portion of the front Weaver adapter.

For the rear ring, you can see it mounted on the rear Weaver adapter. There is no rear portion on the rear adapter. The distance ring to ring is 3.5 inches.

Here is another view where you can actually see the inserts.

ky - ftr gave you the scoop, there. go to brownells and search 'base adapters' and the ruger-to-weaver adapter will pop up for ya - even easier if you filter by manufacturer (burris).

ftr - yeah, i know the 243 is a ticket into open class, but if my daughter is going to get into this, it will have to be w/ a rifle she will shoot, and the 308 was just a bit more than she cared for in the recoil department.

as far as the next step, i think that will be load development. i have a spare zeiss conquest i stuck on the gun so i could get that ball rolling, so that's next. after that, i'll take about a month off from the gun for deer season, and after that i'll hopefully have my load developed and i'll start working on come ups...

Another option is Ken Farrell. He makes a couple of different Weaver mounts for the M77 with 20 MOA built. They are a little spendy. I haven't seen the Ruger mount in person, but I run his mounts on a couple of Rem 700 rifles and would recommend them just based off those.
Sorry no link just google Ken Farrell and his website will pop up

Dodgefan, that is incorrect. I looked at the Ken Farrell mounts and they are made for M77 that are drilled and tapped. They do not attach to the scalloped factory mounting points on the receiver.

Trust me when I say that I searched far and wide for ANYTHING that would mount on a Ruger M77 without drilling holes. The ONLY thing that I found were the Burris adapters.

On the other hand, I now can give testimonial to the strength of the solution after dropping my rifle on the scope this past weekend.

It survived fine, even if my nerves didn't.

Good to know. As I stated in my initial post I hadn't actually seen them I knew that he made some for the Ruger. My recommendation of his work was based off of the quality of his Rem 700 mounts. I should of said another possible option.

Hey, I so wanted Ken Farrell's mount to work, and I spend time looking at them and then even called them. No go. KF does good stuff, that would have been great. (sigh)

I still plan on doing a something on a M77 just to be different (odd) at the matches I shoot in. Right now it's 3rd on the list for building though. So probably two more deployments unless I stumble across a deal on a rifle to use for a donor, that might bump it up the list.

Big Time, Weaver t-series are a good place to start.They are 1/4 the price of NF,have decent glass and good tracking.Same goes for Sightron.The 1/8 inch clicks are what most target shooters want.Someone else has already said you can recover most of your money anytime you want to. BTW,way to go,getting your daughter into shooting! Good Luck to the both of you. Lightman

i stuck the zeiss on the gun and got a decent load put together w/ the 105 a-max's. the ruger's 9 twist will indeed stabilize the a-max's.

been getting my hunting battery in shape and finally completed all of that today, so to celebrate i picked up the sightron 6-24x. just got done mounting it, using the +20 on the bottom of the rear ring and the -20 on the top half, front ring is at 0/0.

headed out tomorrow to get a 200 yard zero, and then it is gonna have to sit for awhile - the remainder of the year is dedicated to hunting.

thanks for the help fellas... i'm getting there!