Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 200 gr Speer in Model 99 / 300 Savage?

I was reading the "Benoit Rifle" thread and started thinking of how nice it would be to have a "dark timber" rifle for elk: moderate to heavy bullets, fast handling rifle with iron sights or a low-powered scope, and capable of a quick second (or third, fourth, etc) shot. Being just a little short of the bucks to purchase a new firearm, I looked in the gun safe and realized I had the perfect rifle: a 1940's era Savage Model 99 in 300 Savage!

A quick search of available factory ammo showed that both Federal and Remington make 180 gr versions of 300 Sav ammo with a muzzle velocity of 2350 fps. Looking up the ballistics of that load (as published by Remington) wasn't very encouraging, though: Ft-lbs of energy drops below 1000 somewhere between 200 and 300 yards, and bullet drop is over 20 inches at 300 yards. Yes, I know that's far more than "dark timber" ranges, but where I hunt the walk to and from these dense patches offer some occasional longer-distance shots.

After some more searching, I saw in an old elk hunting thread a recommendation for a 165 gr Partition @2600 fps as quality elk medicine. I ran it through a ballistics program and saw an immediate improvement: 8 inches of drop at 300 yards (sighted 3" high at 100) and 1688 ft-lbs of retained energy at 300 yards.

I have some R15 on hand, so I looked in the Alliant reloading guide and saw that 44gr of R15 would move a 165 gr bullet at 2614 fps. Good news, I thought, I have both the bullets and the powder on hand to try this out.

But while I was checking out the 165 gr load, I noticed data for the 200 gr Speer (42 gr of R15 for 2379 fps). Being curious, I thought, "OK, it's heavier, that's good for elk, but how much handicap am I taking on with the slower muzzle velocity? How much will it shorten my point-blank range? What will the retained energy be at 300 yards if I get a long shot?

I ran the data through a trajectory calculator, and got a real shock. Apparently due to the long bullet's extraordinary BC (0.556) the trajectory of the 200 gr SP puts it barely more than 2 inches lower than the 165 gr Partition at 300 yards. Set to travel no more than 3" above or below line of sight, the 165 gr Partition has a point-blank range of 257 yards, while the 200 gr Speer SP has a point-blank range of 241 yards. Retained energy at 300 yards for the Partition: 1439 ft-lbs. For the Speer: 1688 ft-lbs.

So the question becomes: which load would you choose for your "dark timber" rifle? Would the added weight of the 200 gr Speer offer more penetration, break through more bone, do greater damage and put down elk more reliably than the 165 gr Partition?

Or am I just wasting my time chasing numbers while I should just go buy a box of Remington round-nose 180's and start practicing at the range?

Stick with the 180's

Since the 99 has a 1 in 11 twist, it is actually happier with short bullets. The problem with the 300 is limited powder capacity and the heavier the bullet the less room.
With today's super bullets, weight is not needed to get effective penetration which helps the 300. Both the 130 and 150 Barnes TSX shoot very well in 99s (sub 1") and are deadly. The new 130 TTSX is a great deer/antlope bullet and can be pushed to almost 2900 with 36 gr of 4198 and still shoot 3/4" 3 shot groups. We shot it into ballistic Gel at 100 yards against a 180 Remington factory load and it expanded more and penetrated as far. As far as Elk go, we actually recovered a Barnes last year. (That makes two in 30+ Elk). It was a 120 7mm shot from a 7mm Remmag, very fast, into a mature cow quartering away at 80 or so yards. After nipping the paunch, wrecking the lungs, it ended up two feet up the neck. She died.
If I were to hunt Elk with a 300, I'd use the 150 TSX pushing it as fast as my 99R could handle.
All that said, Savage only made one 99 that was a real "Black Timber" rifle. That was the 358 Carbine that is a crusher with 200 gr TSXs.
This one was a "foreman's friend" as no ordinary 99 ever left the factory with wood like this!

I think that 99 is called a sadle rifle, I have one quite similer also a .358 and its calleed a brush gun(I may have mixed them up).
Mine shoots 225 grain sierra bts into less than an inch.
I think I am getting about 2500 fps with that load.
It really will shoot prety well out to about 250 if I remember corectly.
If you reeally want a good woods and open country lever gun that passes the cool test find an 1895 winchester in 30,06.
The reproes are capable of pushing that 200 grain bullet out at about 2600. Or get an origional in 30/40 Krag.
Nothing wrong with the 300 though as i have one too and it's fun.
I shoot 150 and 165 grain bullets in it for the most part...tj3006

That data for the 200gr Speers is good stuff. If I had to venture a guess folks saying don't do it, haven't shot 200gr bullets out of theirs or anyone else's 99.

There used to be a 200gr factory load from Peters long ago so at one time even factory loads were available.

They shoot great from my 99 1950 EG w a 24" barrel. The Speer data that gives 2379fps was shot from a 20" barrled rifle. I get a little over 2400fps from a little less than a max load from the Speer manual. That handily exceeds any factory 180 load both in velocity and energy and yes it is a very sleek and long bullet that flies flat out of a .300 Savage.

Other good 200gr bullets I want to try (and which are a hair shorter) are the Norma Oryx (a bonded bullet)the 200gr Lapua Mega which looks to be a real sturdy bullet and for a tougher Speer bullet they have a 200 Grand Slam. I like the flat meplats on the Euro bullets.... They stabilize just fine in the .300's 1 in 12 twist.

Both are available from MidwayUSA as are the Speer 200's:

Norma Oryx

Lapua Mega

Speer HotCor

Speer Grand Slam

What's not to like, Higher velocity and much greater energy than factory 180gr loads!

Although my favorite bullet for handloading in the .300 is a 180gr Speer Mag-Tip. Short for it's weight and a very tough bullet at .300 velocities. It's my standard load for where I hunt and what I hunt most which is Black Bear.

Folks will say that the 200 and a lot of 180's are too long for the case and protrude into the powder space too much... a buch of BS. It's no different that loading long bullets in say a .300 winmag or any other short necked cartridges, they work fine...

I think it's a GREAT idea to give it a try and I bet that load would kill Elk real well in the "black timber".

Try it and let us know how it works!

I would stick with 165gr Partition given the choices above. I load 180's in my 300 Savage for deer because it likes the heavier bullets, but I'm seating those bullets down a long ways into the case to make it fit.

And those Partitions will handle any elk just fine, and probably give you as more wriggle room on busting shoulders as the Speer.

To get a shorter bullet in heavier weight,opt for a Round Nose design.Spitzer and BT bullets have nothing much over a RN in distances at 20 yds or less.In fact I have found out to 300 yds they work quite well.The 180 's will also serve better for tha tocccasional long shot you may have to take. I prefer a bullet that is not on each end of the spectrum which might just someday limit me on what I cand o with it.

AS for the trend of going to the lighter bullets,guys that like the attributes of them, haven't vclue about what weght bullets maintain down range energy best.

If the 200 will do so much better over factorty loads, Just think what the 180 gr RN will do. A 300 Savage isn't going to push a 180 gr bullet to speeds that will result in bullet failer as many like to call them and I most case ,you will get full penetration unless you are a shoulder shooter

According to Doug Murray, it was called The Model 99-358 and 375 Straight Stock Brush Gun. Made 1977-80. 375 only in 1980 (silly choice)

And if you are a shoulder shooter, the TSX will break them both. Here's a 180 TSX that did that to a big cow and then went into a clay bank behind her. 180 in 338 Federal (wouldn't that make a nice 99 caliber!)....Hmm get a ratty 308 and rebore it.....

I have played with the Savage 99s for years..My present bush load is the 180 gr. Rem Corelokt RN in the .308 at 2600 FPS. The 200 gr. bullets are just too slow IMO as they protrude into the powder space of the .308, especially in the savage rotory magazine which doesn't give any OAL to play with.

A good all around load in the .308 is the 150 gr. or 165 gr. bullets, they work well in the brush or across a canyon..If you want a big round nose bullet in a lever brush brush gun then go to the 30-06 as it handles the heavier bullets better..Browning makes a couple of Lever action 30-06s in the BLR and the Win. 95 clone.

All of the above problems with the .308 can only be worse in the .300 Savage..If I had a 300 Savage I would shoot a RN 150 or at most a RN 165 gr. bullet..A RN 150 gr bullet at 2500 FPS in your Savage 99 would handle 99% of the game available on this continent if not all. Not ideal but do-able!

My latest brush gun is a Win. M-95 SRC with 220 gr. RN Woodleighs at 2300 FPS. I have a receiver sight on it with the apature removed. It also works well as a saddle gun except I use 180 gr. Noslers at 2700 FPS in this case.

I just got it and I think I am likeing it more every day..I am going to have to restock it with a shotgun butt/recoil pad, as the factory stock is too short.

I'd think a NP Protected Point 180 gr would be a very good choice, a bit shorter length than the spitzers, and proven death on about everything you stick with them.

"Imagine that! That slow, old, heavy hunk of lead drops only 2 inches less than the whiz-bang Nosler partition at 300 yards. And the difference in point-blank range is only 16 yards. Who would have known?"

I love watching the light overhead come ON when folks first make this discovery about the ballistics of "slightly heavy-for-caliber" bullets at moderate velocity. It happens again when they experience how effective those bullets are on game. BTDTBTTS.

czech1022, I am betting you would be very pleased with the 200 grain Speer in your 300 Savage. Give it a try, then please come back and tells us how it worked.

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I'm fine with the concept but I doubt the quoted BC figure for the Speer 200. It's higher than the one for a 185 gr. Berger VLD.

From Mathman:

"I'm fine with the concept but I doubt the quoted BC figure for the Speer 200. It's higher than the one for a 185 gr. Berger VLD."

From the Speer web page:

30 cal. Spitzer SP 2211
Part Number Caliber Weight Grain Construction
2211 30 cal. 200 Hot-Cor

Bullet Coefficient Sectional Density Diameter
0.556 0.301 0.308

I don't doubt your quote of Speer's number, I doubt Speer's number that you quoted.

While I haven't used the 200 grain Speer on game, I load it in the .308 Winchester for use in my 12 gauge/.308 combination gun. In my case it will probably never get used beyond 50 yards and it will never get used beyond 200 yards. Within these ranges I can't imagine why I'd ever want a lighter bullet for my uses. In case anyone is interested, I'm using Reloder 15 and getting 2450 fps

Second Antelope to fall to my pal Phil shooting a 130 TSX backed by 36 gr 4198 in 300 Savage EG with Loopie 2-7. 130 yards slightly uphill, broke rt front shoulder, then neck, then exited as Barnes always seem to.
No tracking required.

I have a Speer catalog that shows a revised BC of .478 which is probably closer to reality I agree. I always thought the .556 BC was a bit high.

A BC of .478 is pretty good though and still shows impressive downrange numbers from the old .300!

czech1022, give it a try using Speers data. I'm sure you'll be surprised by what that big, long, heavy bullet can do and I bet for larger game under 200yds it will work just great!

I know I'll continue to shoot it out of my 99.

The .300 Savage has such a short neck, you'd really be pushing it to get a 200 gr. bullet to fit in your magazine. Plus, a lot of bullet in the case, reducing capacity.

The day of the big heavy softnose bullet (ala Elmer Keith) has passed. Today's super bullets shoot flatter and deliver more damage then old designs. Look at the cross section of an expanded monolythic expanding bullet (Barnes, the new Nosler or Hornady)
Those "petals" sticking out with their sharp edges rotating at God knows how many RPMs, really tear things up a lot more than a mushroomed round edged cup and core softpoint. They also don't come apart and nothing but a solid outpenetrates them. Even the great old Partition, that we used for years, will often wipe off its front end when hitting bone and the rest of the wound is caliber sized. IME you load the 150 TSX in your 300 Savage as fast as you can push it and it will kill any Elk that walks the earth within the ethical hunting range of that cartridge.(250 yards).
IMO the 300 is hardly the optimum "black timber" elk cartridge.
A 250 or 286 TSX in this rifle is far superior. Merkel SR-1, 9.3x62,(I think the only 9.3 ever imported), 1.2-4 Trijicon with the BIG amber triangle. "3 shots quick". It will actually do 3 in 1" (on centers), not that that is needed for typical jumped Elk in the deep woods.

Maybe for you, oldman, but not necessarily for everyone else. Read this thread carefully. There are several guys that still like the big old slugs, and I'm one of them. Another favorite of mine is the 175 grain Hornady in my 7x57s. I'm not saying there are not other good bullets, just not many better.

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