Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Can I neck size with a full lenght size die?

An emphatic YES!

And a double emphatic recommendation for the Lee collet dies that others have mentioned.

I have spent several hundred dollars buying separate Redding neck dies, three die deluxe sets with a FL and neck die, then a bunch of Redding S neck dies with the bushings, and finally just bought Lee collet dies for all of my calibers.

Had I to do it all over again I'd start with the Lee collet dies in the first place.

I'd like it if Lee offered one and two thousanth undersize mandrels as standard items.

I just downsized my mandral tonight. I turned my palm sander upside down, chucked my 308 mandrel in a drill, and held it against the running palm sander. (I guess I'm a hillbilly blacksmith). It didnt' take much to buzz about .001 off the mandrel. Finished it off with some fine sandpaper and put it back into the die. Now I have .003" grip without having to push down nearly as hard on the press handle.
BUT....I agree that I wish they just sent the die through with a mandrel that would give .003 grip with a nice light stroke of the press handle.
I love the flexibility of the collet die with a redding body die. Use the collet till chambering resistance...then run the brass through the body die.
I also have one of the forster bump dies on order....that should be the cats ass if it ever comes.....been on back order with Graffs for about 6 mos'.

Kraky and Mathman, I agree!

Lee will make and undersized mandrel for you for a fee, but it would be very nice if they offered them as standard items or even sent them with the die!

Turning a mandrel works, but it would be much nicer if they were right to start with. Some of the Collet dies really take some force to give a descent grip. Doesn't bother me with the excellent low run-out loads they produce.

Have a Good One,

loder

After reading all of the posts here, you gentlemen are a little to 'scientific' for me....

I neck size all the time with Full length dies, especially if I don't happen to have a Lee collet die in that caliber..( because I don't load that caliber that often).

I just do the following:

1. extend the ram all the way up..
2. screw down the die until it makes contact
3. back it off one to 1.5 turns..
4. do a test size on a case with a bullet loaded with the bullet in place already, or dummy round..


Usually turning the die back one full turn is enough...if it has a long neck, then 1.5 turns..

I always lube the case necks, one of two ways, depending on my mood I guess...

1. spin the spindle out and give it a squirt of Amzoil spray lube, or Rem gun oil works also..
2. put some of a bore brush and lube the neck that way...

the cases get lubed on the outside, as I hate dealing with stuck cases, however old Lee Decapping Die spindles that had the pin broke off work well with a hammer to remove a stuck case...

if I am just neck sizing, I also run the decapping spindle and pin as high up in the case as it will go..

worked out this system after having to take out a lot of stuck cases...you use your head and figure out why the case stuck and what you can do to prevent it next time..

Errors are good teachers if one pays attention

I'm not following you on #4. Pushing a case with bullet in place into a sizing die will at minimum result in a crushed bullet.

Okay, let's talk about Lee Full Length Sizing Dies, and the reason you SHOULD NOT be using them for neck sizing.. Other dies may work like the Lee's do, but I'm not familiar with them, so my post is specifically talking about the Lee dies..

For a test, take your Lee F/L sizing die and put it in the press. Now remove the decapping pin entirely from the die. Now run a piece of brass through it.. When you pull that brass out, you'll see that the die has crushed the mouth of the brass down considerably. Were talking between .040" & .080" that the neck is crushed.

Now think about this.. Every time you run a piece of brass through that sizing die the neck is getting crushed down more than it ever needs to be.... Then the expander ball opens the brass back up as you extract the case from the die.. Once you see how much the brass is worked.. You'll not want to do that anymore.

For those of you guys buying body dies to bump the shoulders back. Here's a tip for you..

Take your Lee F/L sizing die remove the decapper pin and DISCARD it.. Yes, throw that pin in the garbage. Now, take a Dremmel tool with a metal grinding bit on the end, and open up the neck-sizing portion of the die. Be careful that you don't disturb metal in the critical shoulder to neck junction of your die. You don't need to worry about being neat.. Just open up the neck sizing area so that no portion of the neck is re-sized when the brass is pushed into the die.. Now, you have a body die that will push the shoulder back, and re-size the body when you need to. This along with your neck sizing die, are the ticket to LONG brass life..

Why destroy a perfectly good F/L sizing die? Well, using it this way insures that you don't over-work the neck of your brass when you only need to bump the shoulder back. On those rare occasions that I have to bump the shoulders back, I have measurements for each rifle, and know exactly how much to push each shoulder back without re-sizing it too much. If you really want to get technical, you can take the same sizing die, measure the area just above the case head on several fired cases from your specific chamber then using a brake hone, you can open up the inside of your new body/shoulder bumping converted F/L die and hone it out to be about .003" under the size of your fired cases. You have to account for spring back. Honing the die this way, you don't re-size the body of the cartridge smaller than necessary when you are only wanting to bump the shoulders.

It might be "too scientific" but for me re-loading is about trying to perfect each and every step in the process along the way. If I were in it just to make bullets I would probably get bored pretty quickly with it and would just buy factory rounds.

The OP was inquiring about neck-sizing, and one must assume that he was pursuing this endeavor for better accuracy, or extended brass life, or both. I think this post is loaded with great ideas to meet and exceed all of his goals..

And if the OP has not bought a Lee Collet die yet-someone should apply hands to his neck until he sees the light!

Wow....and I thought I was "over the top" grinding my mandrel with a palm sander and drill. I'm small [bleep].....but I do have a dremel......oh boy.
FWIW I also know of people that have made their own Magnum Collet die.....you know the dies that will actually size down to the belt on a mag case. I think to do this you have to take a mag die and cut the top off of it so you can get the shell far enough up so the sizer gets to the belt.
On the good side of die mods.....there is a guy that will take the redding body die and mate it on top with a redding bushing die...I hear that's the cats ass and really works...and some benchresters are using it.

I usually "partial" neck resize with the standard dies as previously described .
I prefer that method as it allows the case to headspace on the shoulder not the rim of a "magnum".

As the case shoulder moves foreward you will have to lower the die to find the sweet spot for ,comfortable chambering vs firm head space .
Let the shoulder tell you where to set the die.

Some folks reload to shoot; some folks shoot to reload. The idea of going through all that rigamaroll to reload a cartridge makes my head hurt. With the stated reason "to make my brass last a long time". Using the Partial Full Length Resizing Method, I've reloaded various calibre's brass until I was sick of looking at it.
I know this will bring gasp of constarnation but I also don't weigh cases, nor uniform flash holes, nor dick around deburring the insides of flash holes. I fully understand you may spend your time as you please but some folks time must be worth very little.

yeah evidently you are not following me..or I am not explaining it well enough...

You CANNOT neck size with your FL dies for this cartridge.

You will to some degree size the body of the case before you get much sizing of the neck.

As to your second question of improving accuracy, there has been a raging debate about neck sizing versus "partially full sizing", which is what you do by setting your FL die to just barely kiss the shoulder of case to enable it to chamber when the FL die constricts the case body as you try to "neck size".

Which method of sizing is better? In my case about 90% of my rifles respond best to simple neck sizing with a neck sizing die. One in particular doesn't shoot that way and I have to partially full size the brass leaving about .001" clearance at the shoulder for reasonable chambering.

For extreme accuracy most benchresters neck size only. That should tell you something.

Maybe someone who really runs the benchrest circuit can chime in here. Years ago benchresters did pretty much use neck dies. And I'm sure some still do. But now most of the articles I'm reading on new world records it seems the shooters are using custom dies that do slightly more than just neck sizing. I think most of the really good guys are using custom fitted FL dies that ever so slightly resize the brass for good chambering yet keep dimensions to the chamber really close for perfect alignment in the chamber.

I'm curious about eventually needing to full-length resize when using the Lee Collet die. As I have said, I retire cases after ten loadings and never have any trouble whatsoever chambering rounds. I would appreciate hearing from others who use the Lee die as to their experience. Thanks, John

John-to answer your question directly, I have yet to have to bump the shoulder back on any of my brass that I have been neck-sizing only. I have several cases in 7MM Mag that have been fired 7 times as per my notes, and still I'm only neck-sizing. I have 30-06 cases that have been re-loaded 15 times that still have never had to have the shoulders bumped back. I shoot the -06 more than most other calibers.

I have seen it written in many posts on this, and other, reloading forums that after a while bumping the shoulder will be necessary but I have yet to experience it personally. The only time I have to bump shoulders back is if I buy once-fired brass, or pick up fired brass from the range. I'll measure those cases from head to shoulder dimension and then if they are beyond specification for my chamber, I'll bump the shoulder back to work in my chamber.

I think it needs to be said that reloading has many different methods of accomplishment. It comes down to a personal level as to how you want to approach it. I can't think of any ways that I have heard of that are "wrong"-just different peoples ideas and how they like to do it.

Kraky-I too would like to hear about how the benchresters are doing it now.. I have read several articles that say that a lot of them have gone back to full length re-sizing between every firing. I can't imagine FLRS is the answer but if they are setting records doing it, it can't be wrong. I'll wait to see what the accepted norm is, and may adjust brass prep from there.

Bobski makes several good points........

Further, there is a huge relationship on the chamber size of a particular gun vs the size of the die used.

I've seen more than one case of a "large" chamber & a "small" die...........when this happens, depending of degree, even with partial resizing, the shoulder will be moved far enough forward that the case will not chamber unless the case is sized enough to move it back.

This with cases that will easily chamber after firing, but before partial resizing.

The best way to "partial" resize is to have dies made from a fired case for the correct fit, otherwise it's the the luck of the draw for the fit of chamber vs dies.

I use a neck sizer & body dies for the most part, but do partial resize when it works out for the particular gun & dies.

JMHO

MM

I have had several different 7mm RM rifles. The chambers on all varied quite a lot, almost to the point of the Browning I have now having a large enough chamber to nearly meet wildcat status.

You can (see bobski's post) only partial FL resize with a full length die. So the advice given in other posts to set your die so it sizes the case just enough to chamber are, in my view, correct.

If you have a large chamber (like my Browning) and only need (or want) to neck size, get a neck size die. But know that at some number of rounds down the line the FL die will have to be applied as the cases will eventually need it. As for which is best, partial FL or neck sizing, your rifle will tell you that. There may be some, or even no difference, one way or the other.

Of course you can neck size with a full length die, just as easily as you can with a set of neck dies..Unless you have custom neck sizing dies made from your fired cases its a waste of money to buy neck sizing dies..

Here is how to neck size in a FL die set:

Take a kitchen match and smoke the neck black, don't cook the case btw, just blacken it, some folks use a marker..

Then set you die up about 1/4 inch I suppose from the shell holder...The resize the case and you will see a line in the blackened neck as to where the sizer starts, keep turning the die down until the line is about half way down the neck..stop there and you have a neck sized case..be sure and check this in your chamber and if its too tight then you may have to continue down a bit until it chambers..This usually works pretty well but factory chambers can be pretty sloppy so you never know.

I have done a lot of experimenting with neck sizeing as opposed to full length resizing and I have not found one advantage to neck sizing a case other than on a 0 tolerance bench rest chamber, and never would I even consider neck sizing a hunting rifle cartridge..That is a disaster in the making and I have seen this happen a million times to hunters including myself early on...bullets stuck in the chamber, powder all over and in the magazine, a case that wouldn't feed into the chamber, missed opertunity at game..It will happen unless your so anal as to chamber every cartridge as you load it and even then I have seen them fail in the field.

I know this subject is open to arguement, so argue it out without me, I said my opine and my head is made up!

I feel like Ray....I don't hunt in sanitary enough conditions to trust ammo that doesn't chamber with ez. I want a bit of headspace to make up for whatever can fall into my gun during the course of a day. Come to wisconsin for deer season and make drives through brush and grass where you can't see 20' in front of you. Then we'll take your gun and blow it out with an air compressor at the end of the day onto a white sheet.....you'd be shocked what comes out of it.
I've also hunted out west in AK and I must be a pig with my guns cause no matter what bolts and ammo get "gritty"...and sometimes combined with rain, ice, snow "iffy" things start happening.
I just don't need the worry of starting with ammo that already doesn't want to go into the chamber. Like Ray I don't see an improvement in accruacy by chambering rounds with slight resistance...I get great accuracy from fl sized brass but I do watch to keep headspace to a minimum. (Usually .002 give or take smidge)
I realize there are sanitary ways to hunt and the gun will stay as clean as when it's at the shooting range but it doesn't seem to work for me.

Ray~
I'll take issue with you. On that same case also blacken the body below the shoulder. Actually Dychem works a bit better. You will see the sizing marks on the body at about the same time the neck is sized less than 1/8", not enough to either hold or keep the bullet straight.

If the taper of the body is enough, as in a 300 H&H, you might be able to get about half the neck, maybe a bit more, before the marks show up on the body indicating it too is being sized, but not on cases with gentle tapers.

I've done exactly what you suggest on the same 7 mag case, only in 338 Win Mag. The body taper is too straight and unless the chamber is really big you might not get enough sizing in the neck to hold the bullet well and straight. I couldn't do it in any of several custom chambers. Factory, "maybe" half the neck if you're "lucky" and have a great big chamber.

A mutual buddy you know on another board has argued with me for years on this subject as to accuracy. He's a proponent of the partial full sizing method for best consistent accuracy, just sizing enough to set the shoulder back .001" so that the cases will chamber but fit very snuggly and perfectly centered in the chamber. It accomplishes the same thing. It does work, I've just had better luck with neck sizing. If you size the neck very far in an FL die the body at the shoulder starts squeezing out long before you have much sizing of the neck. That's the only place the brass has to go as the sized neck pushes down and compresses the brass. Too bad we can't get old Hot Core over here and liven things up on this, one of his favorite subjects.

I'll be heading to "our" old stomping grounds shortly, much to my regret. Your name came up the other day a long way from here, and there, in connection with the death of our mutual friend, my cousin Fred. We all have the same opinion of that one.