Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles What Happened To Lazzeroni's Magnums?

I'm not gonna touch most of the stuff in this thread, but I will say that I spoke to John Lazzeroni and he confirmed he's working on a new .30 caliber that will push a 180gr bullet over the 4000fps mark.

I have wanted a Warbird for a number of years. I eventually purchased a .300Rum but I still want a Warbird. I can't give you a logical answer to why I do I just do. I guess that makes me a rifle loony!

What'll he call it?....a .300 Swift?

seems to me that if you need more power than a 300 win mag, move up in caliber, ie 338 win mag or larger. if it is really a matter of trying to kill an elk at 500 yards, well, that's a different subject. as far as lazzeroni goes, cool stuff but the rifles and cartridges do not do anthing that can not already be done with non-lazzeroni cartridges. the last lazzeroni 30 cal that exceeded the 4000k mark was with a 130 gr bullet so it will be interesting to see how he does it with a larger bullet. I am sure it will be "lubricated" as he call it.

Brent,

Is that you? I think the reason most folks don't go for the Lazaroni is most folks don't put in the trigger time to take advantage of what it offers. As a matter of fact, the majority of the folks can't even shoot a 300 win mag to it's potential, so more speed to flatten trajectory, with the accompanied recoil and expense to get the speed is of no use to them.

I think the Lazaroni is a like a Ferarri. Most folks can't afford them. Of those that can afford them, most don't get them because of how fast they can go, but so that they can brag about them.

You are the rare shooter that can shoot well enough to take advatage of the guns long range potential.

Weren't you planning on a 500 Jeffrey? Any range results?

Very nice groups!

Which powder and grain weight are you using, if I might ask? I have a Sako TRG-S in the Warbird caliber. I've not shot it much due to being laid up with surgery. I loaded about ten loading up with Barnes Triple Shock 180's and RL25 quite some time ago (February). I have only made it through half of them and all so far have given me about 1" groups, but then the gun is not broke in yet and my experience has been that modern magmum guns/powders tend to shoot best towards the top of the chart. I have not shot the hotter loads yet but no pressure signs at this point and I would not have expected any yet at least. My rifle has an IOR 4.5X14 scope with the MP-8 reticle on it. I think I will like it.

I did get a chance to take a pig with it in Texas early in the Spring. Not much of a challenge at 75 yards. The two other hogs I shot with my S&W 500 were much more fun!

Good hunting!

458Lott -

I think your second reason, cost, is closer to the truth. That and they simply don't need them, so why pay a premium when a Ruger/Sin/Rem/Savage/Howa/Whatever in .308/.30-06/.300 Win Mag/Whatever will do just as well for their needs?

.

Ricky D,

I see you have a 500 S&W, aren't they fun to shoot!!!
My fave load consists of 440 grn. Cast Performance Hard Cast with 40 Grns. Lil' Gun and it's a blast to shoot, could use a bit more powder to achieve top velocities, have a series of loaded rounds up to 44 grns., will be testing this Sunday, can hardly wait. Trying to find a good hard cast bullet in the 500 grn. weight which will be about optimum with a full charge of Lil' Gun, thinking of having a custom LBT style mould made and cast my own to do more shooting, local gun shop can't seem to keep enough in stock for me.

As for the Warbird, I'm using 106 grns of RL 25 for the 180 grn. Accubonds for a velocity of 3520 fps.
For the 200 Grn Accubonds I'm stuffing the cases with 102 grns. of rl 25 for 3300 fps. Did load up to a 10 shot ave. of 3385 fps but ran into slightly flattened primers and groups started to suck too opening to a lousy 1 inch from the normal 1/2 " with 3300 fps.

**Note**
You will not be able to use this load data unless you coat your bullets with Tungsten Disulfide, which is what I do to all my bullets.. Follow John Lazzeroni's load data from his web page for uncoated bullets.

Proman,

Thanks for the info. I may make it out this weekend after a very long hiatus from the range. Surgery sucks!

I have yet to load for my 500. I think I will center my loads around Barnes 285 and 325 grain loads. The 325's look like fat missles! I've shot some 440's and can't thnik of an application for them apart from armored vehicle interdiction, and I am not an interdicter. Besides they hurt.....me!ha ha.

Thanks again and good hunting!

Proman,

First, I must express some skepticism about your ability to shoot 0.25" or 0.50" groups at 100 yards with a 7.82 Warbird in an 8 to 10 pound hunting weight rifle. I do not believe it is possible to do so consistently. You do. I don't.

Second there is the matter of recoil. It is virtually impossible to shoot a 300 Weatherby with the same accuracy as a .308 Winchester because of all the extra leaping, blasting, and torquing of the heavy recoiling cartridge. The Lazzeroni is much worse. MUCH worse. This is simply physics. A 180 grain bullet and 80 grains of powder at 3100 fps is a pussycat compared to the same bullet and 106 grains of powder at 3550 fps. Flinch city occurs. This is one reason why NOBODY who is serious about long range target shooting at 800, 900, or 1000 yards uses the Lazzeroni (or Weatherby, BTW). Popular cartridges are the 6.5-284, 6mm-XC, etc.

Then there is barrel wear. A 6.5-284 is good for maybe 1000 shots. A .308 Winchester in excess of 3000 to 5000. The Warbird? 500 shots is probably stretching it. How much practice can occur, even if you ignore the $5.00 per shot part?

I think the Lazzeroni cartridges will die out for the simple reason that hitting game animals at 400 years is easier with a .270 than with a 7.82mm Warbird for the above reasons. There have been a lot of other "odd" magnum cartridges like the Newtons, Bob Hutton's in the 1960s, the 7X61 Sharpe and Hart, Howell's, revolver cartridges like the .401 Herter, and others. Most of their advantages are marginal or non-existent. Unless they are pushed by a major manufacturer, they die.

Excellent groups. Do they kill any better at 300 yards than 1.25 or 1.50 or 2.0 groups? And why are you shooting at 300 yards or longer? ( I do, but only if I have a really good excuse!)



Accuracy is to be desired. Obsession is suspect. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



On the other hand, " Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess" (Lazarus Long in "Time Enough For Love" by Robert Heinlein)



Also, "Everything in modertion, including moderation")

You guys crack me up,

weak kneed huh??Then Keep playing with your 270.



Why does it bother you guys that I like the Warbird???

My wife shoots it and says it ain't so bad, do any of you have any experience at all with the Warbirds .

Hey, if those guys get to you, I'll take it off your hands, if the price is right, and promise I'll put 5, 6 rounds a year tru it if you give me your loading data.



That's about what I do with my .338 Win Mag Ruger 77. "moose rifle". Haven't missed a moose yet, over a decade or more of use.

Proman,

I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone has an opinion, the question is from what data they draw one from ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Usually the people who pooh pooh on the big magnums never had any experience with one.

Anyway, I am also a magnum fan, here are mine : 338RUM, 300RUM, 300WIN, 270WSM, 7mm Mag, 7STW, 7RUM. My buddy 163bc has the same, plus a 300 Jarret and a 338 Win. They all shoot sub-moa and on a good day, the operator can keep them in nice tidy clusters.

Frankly, I enjoy shooting them and do so often. I have posted many groups shot with them and will invite anyone who cares to show up at my gun club shooting a non-magnum, to sling a few down range for a friendly competition.

Tony.

I have never owned a Warbird. I do hunt with a 300 Weatherby UltraLightweight. The reason I'm skeptical about owning a Warbird, aside from obsolescence risk, is that it has been my experience that most owners of magnums are very poor shots under field conditions. (I obviously have no knowledge of you or your wife in this regard.) A Warbird only makes this worse.

Also, as a high power match shooter, my friends and I each shoot more shots, at certain seasons, in a week than you can shoot with a Warbird and still have a barrel. It is a FACT--not an opinion--that a skilled rifle shot can shoot a .308 or .223 far, far more accurately than an "eargeschplittenloudenboomer." Recoil matters.

And it's all relative. If I shoot a 20-shot prone match with my 16-pound .308, I will shoot a better score with Sierra 155s than with Sierra 190s, even though the latter are better on paper for wind deflection.

So what does the Warbird offer? Very little? If you want to play with one, that's fine. But the reason why it isn't more popular is pretty obvious.

Indy,

If you are unable to handle a 300 Wby then definately keep away from the Warbird and shoot the little 308 Win., sounds like it should be just right for ya!!

It never stops does it , some schmuck reads or hears about a cartridge and becomes the expert on it. You need to fire it over 1000 times first then tell me how bad the recoil is , I have and I insist it isn't that bad, period.

Another dumbazz remark is that the Warbird has very little to offer, how can you say that when the Warbird has velocity and energy out to 500 yards what the puny 308 Win. has at the muzzle!!

Obviously someone needs to to their homework and have mommy check it first....

Well, I've only seen one poster who used a Lazz, but so far you are 100% correct.





See below.

I thought that this question was a real good one for the forum to ponder. It had a lot of potential for new information and spirited discussion.

What we got is the start of a discussion and then the degeneration into a spitting contest. Is it full moon or is this some testosterone disruption period? Geez, come on fellas! What happed to the exchange of information and good discussions?

proman,

I was technically on your side in support of the Warbird. But man, your choice of name calling and verbage designed to elicit more combative posts is just plain wrong. I can understand the zeal and excitement of loving a particular cartridge or rifle but not to the exclusion of at least trying to be decent about it. I know you're being attacked unfairly, just because of a cartridge choice, but rise to occasion and show facts and sound opinions not this contentiousness, please.

IndyCA35,

And you're just the opposite, trying to be all rational and logical but basing all of your comments on opinions which you expect us to take a fact. Get over it.

Highpower does not qualify you to be an expert on all other forms of target shooting. You need to do a little checking before making statements such as you posted. Go to the 1,000 yard Benchrest websites and look at the match results. They list the equipment and the CARTRIDGES used in each relay of every match. The big .30 cals. outnumber the mid-size cartridges and the big ones are in the winner's circle more often, beating out the mid-size .308's and the smaller 6.5's and 22 calibers. And yes, they ARE shooting the .300 Weatherby in competition and some are winning. There are even pictures to prove it. There are even a couple of shooters using the .338 Lapua.

Recoil smecoil, it's all relative as to what an individual can handle. I've watched guys shoot very tiny groups using .470 Nitro Express double rifles. I can't, but they certainly can. I've also watched folks that can't control a 22-250 for any kind of accuracy, at all. Too much recoil. It's the individual.

I am amazed at the targets proman has shown us. That is quite an accomplishment! The reason that I don't doubt him is that I've been present when similar targets have been shot with Warbirds and not just at 100 yards either. Some of these rifles have incredible accuracy capabilities if the shooter and the loads are up to it.

proman even posted targets and you try to counter with "I do not believe it is possible to do so consistently." Well good for you! How many targets does he have to post to satisfy you? 10, 20, 50? Where's the cutoff point?

I'm tracking barrel wear on 3 Warbirds right now. They were all built with barrels from different manufacturers with different rifling styles; cut and button tradition groove and one done in polygonal button. They all have over 1,000 rounds through each of them and the accuracy level has yet to fall off.

You don't like the Warbird, that's great. You don't think that it's going to last, that's your opinion. But others may disagree. I happen to like oddball cartridges and the ones that others label as "lost causes". Wildcats are the best, but they aren't for everyone, I know that. It's my business to invest my money in my rifles to accomplish whatever I deem necessary or desirable. But we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Best of luck!

Nononsense,



I agree with you, my recent posts were uncalled for and I should have chosen my words with care, I apologize to all who have visited this thread and posted on this subject.



I was trying to explain my point of view and experience with this cartridge and what it is capable of, but got sidetracked.



You have just made the point I was trying to put across with the whole magnum thing, they are not uncontrollable and some shooters do shoot them as accurately as smaller caliber cartridges.



I want to make a few things clear with my last post on this thread, while I do hunt and adore the Warbird it is by far not my favorite! Yes it is my most accurate "hunting gun" in my collection of guns, but probably because I have spent the most time with it in recent years. Developing loads with all the slowest powders and the best bullets I could get my hands on, bullets of the premium controlled expansion type designed for hunting, I do not compete or use any of the target type bullets. The accuracy I get with Swift A-Frame bullets and Nosler Accubonds is plenty enough for my needs, the targets I posted here and in other places were all shot with witnesses and I do not need to dwell on the subject of who believes what.



The cartridge that I hold as favorite would be the 300 Winchester Mag. with the 6.5X55 Swede a close contender.



The Warbird may fade into the dust as the years go by but I will have the fondest memories messing around and hunting with it. Some of my best and most exciting trips were with this controversial round, yet with all the supposed excessive recoil and uncontrollability I have never missed or lost a single animal to date. To describe the effect it has on moose is simple instantaneous death, the bulls I've taken never moved more than a couple of steps, or required a second shot, with several at closer yardages reacting as if flattened by a locomotive. That also might be the combination of accuracy and energy, when I take the shot I have 100% confidence as to were it went.



One poster asked the question if 1/2" groups kill better than 1 1/2", I'll have to say they do, last year I dropped a spike bull moose with the only shot I could get, he was in the brush feeding and facing in my direction, I had confirmed he was a legal bull after glassing for a few minutes and was waiting for him to turn and offer me a broadside vital shot, several cows got spooked by a passing ATV and the small bull looked ready to bolt, I had my crosshairs trained on his forehead and calmly squeezed the trigger, he dissapeared and I didn't concern myself with looking for a running animal, he was down and out. Believe me I would have never attempted such a risky shot if I didn't have the ultimate confidence in my rifle and ability to take that shot.



My friends and family all claim that I spend far too much time at the loading bench, shooting range, out scouting and hunting, well that maybe so but I also have a freezer full every season.



One more thought to ponder, the targets that I posted here are the best groups I shot with the Warbird on a calm warm day with no caffiene intake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The best part of those groups is that I broke the 1000 round mark with that barrel, yet the best groups and highest velocity were afforded that day.. I guess actual experience wins over assumptions and predictions, at least in this case..



I bid all a good day and good luck in your forays into the wilderness.

nononsense,

I am well aware of 1000 yard benchrest. I am talking about rifles whose weight you can actually hold up (don't you have to do that with hunting rifles?

While on the subject of benchrest, why don't the 100 yard shooters shoot 30 calibers? Because it's a FACT--not my opinion--that the lower the recoil, the better the accuracy, all things considered.

This has nothing to do with whether or not you can "handle" the recoil.

The reason I'm a bit testy is I think proman and his groups are phony (made up). Perhaps that's because of the language he used.

I also don't think that a 3500 fps rifle will hold its accuracy for 1000 rounds. Sorry but it just does not work that way.

OK, that's enough of that.

Why don't YOU think the Lazzaronies are so unpopular if they "don't recoil" and shoot 0.25" groups?