Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Penetration on african plains game with the NP and the Swift-A-Frames

Without boring you with the details, I have used the A Frame successfuly on game from Impala and Grant's to Cape buffalo and have never been disappointed. The two calibers I used on three hunts were the 7mm Rem and the .375 H&H. Deep penetration, superior accuracy and terminal effectiveness were unparalelled. We didn't have to track anything. Most were DRT. I'm going back for more buff in 2011 and I will be using the A Frame in two calibers, .375H&H and .458 Win. I'm going to use the 450 grain A Frame in the .458 for good velocity and terminal performance. I have seen this and the 500 grain used very successfully in .458 Win.

The TSX is an excellent bullet, but the A Frame is still my choice.

I would not use the A Frame on whitetail, though, but only on thicker skinned and heavier boned animals.

I agree the A frame is an excellent bullet for big heavy animals and I have seen it used many times and used it myself on ocassion. For lighter stuff I don't care for it much and would opt for the Sirocco.

There are a lot of good bullets out there today and you can't pick one brand or weight for all calibers, some brands/weights etc. work well in one caliber and can be less satisfactory in another. Too many folks have it in their head that if brand X bullet works well in one caliber then its best in all calibers, that would be nice, but it ain't so...

The Swift is not my first choice for buffalo in the 375 or 416. In the .375 would opt for the GS Customs 230 gr. HP...I also like the 270 gr. Northfork SP, 350 gr. Woodleighs are absolutly outstanding IMO, 300 gr. Noslers work well indeed. In the .416 Rem or Ruger I would opt for the wonderful Northfork Cup Point, or a GS Customs HP and again I like the very heavy 450 gr. Woodleigh..The new Nosler 400 gr. bullet was marvelous on my last buffalo hunt and it punched big holes in one side and out the other on buffalo, so far I am very impressed with the 400 gr. Nosler in the .416 Rem..

The Barnes X bullets work better on Buffalo than they do on lighter game IMO..

You have a lot of good options out there and your choice of the 450 gr. Swift A FRame in the .458 is interesting and I bet it works well indeed..I know the 500 gr. Swift works very well on buffalo..

I am sure my opine is argueable, otherwise we wouldn't have so many choices, lets keep it that way...

Over on AR a couple of years ago, you gave me your recipe for the 350 Woodleigh in .375. I loaded up a bunch and got great accuracy. I didn't use them last hunt because I brought the ammo for two of us, two rifles for the othr guy and the .375 for me, and I could only bring one bullet for everything for without changing scopes.

I've only killed two buffalo in my entire life, and I did it both with the 300 A Frame, one shot kills on both.

One penetrated through the entire buffalo first breaking the onside shoulder and then through the vitals and both ribcages. When recovered, the bullet weighed 292 grains. No matter how you slice it, that's impressive performance at a range of about 80 yards.

My PH on my last hunt uses 500 gr. handloaded A Frames in his Husqvarna custom .458 with a 22" barrel. They really worked well.

I'm going to use the A Frame in my newly acquired .458 winnie, also.

I've had really good luck with DRT's on PG using the 160 grain A Frame in the 7mm Remmy. It's just hairsplitting to change to something else, although next hunt I'm gong to take along some 350 Woodleighs for the .375 and try them on buff, if I have the room.

I'd like to try the GS Custom because I've heard so much positive stuff about it, but why bother when the A Frame is such an excellent performer.

Ciao.

Fred

Ray or JJ, have you seen the results of hunters shooting Barnes, say a 180 @ 3400 fps?

My experience with Barnes is limited to a few cartridges, but the 30-378 and MRX duo is very impressive. I don't see the difference in regards to the reaction of the animal, or the "taking longer to kill" often associated with Barnes.

I know velocity has alot to do with it, but without starting a LR debate, I have taken game up to the size of elk at 800 yards and more (all I'm getting at is low impact velocity). the reactions are no different than when I was shootin Berger or accubonds.

Just wondering if the reaction of game when shot with Barnes is more on par with bonded bullets in your experience.(with the increase in velocity)

There is clearly a huge difference in impact velocity and animal reaction with all bullets, Even a solid or FMJ shot fast enough will blow open a huge wound channel as tissue struggles to get out of the way of that bullet as it passes through.

Velocity is the main cause of what most folks refer to as Bloodshot meat. The hematoma from the compressed tissue between the bullets path and the skin causes this. It's why on small game or smaller antelopes they blow apart. The skin cannot contain the tissue as it is pushing out of the way of that bullet. Remember two things cannot occupy the same place at the same time. Kinda like shooting pool. The cue ball is the only one with any velocity at the moment you hit it. But the other balls assume the same speed when the impact happens. This is nearly identical to the way tissue reacts to bullet impact.

Quite often you will read on this forums of people saying to just use a solid or FMJ and you won't blow up the game because the bullet won't expand. It's those comments that show the true experience of the person giving the guidance. It's simply not true at all. The velocity is what is most responsible for the excess damage. Sure an expanding bullet will damage tissue too, but even a solid from a 375HH only going 2500fps will blow a giant hole through a steenbok. No different then a cup and core Hornady 270 grain bullet at 2850fps.

So the velocity is a major contributor to the visual impacts with the X bullets. It's one of the main reasons I use the 165 rather then the 180's in the 30/06. Still not great results with the visual, but noticeable enough over the 180's that I use them.

You will not likely be able to appreciate the visual difference in impacts as the shooter. You must be the audience or spotter, or guide/PH to see this. Or even in a follow up later with a video.

Speed is life baby! (or death in this case ). Give me a good bullet like a Swift or a Barnes and drive it fast and the killing effect is at least in my limited experience, dramatic. I think it was Layne Simpson that said the most impressive cartridge he'd ever seen on large African game like buffalo & lion was the 416 Weatherby with A Frames @ 2700 fps. I love my Swifts and I still have a big supply and will continue to use them especially on my 416 Rigby, but I am slowly moving to an all TSX inventory. They are the most consistantly accurate hunting bullet I've ever worked with and they do kill rather efficiently. jorge

As Ray said, this fall I tested penetration of various bullets in damp magazines with the 30-06 and included the 180 TSX, 200 gr Swift , 220 Partitions and 220 Woodleighs and the 240gr Woodleighs.
In order of penetration - with the deepest first - was the 220 Partition ( 13 inches) Followed by the 200 Swift and 180 TSX ( 11 inches) , 240 Woodleigh PP ( 10") and finally the 220 RN Woodleigh ( 8 1/2")
I also tested both 220 Woodleigh solids and the old Hornady 220 steel jacketed solids and they both exited 48" .

For a comparison I also fired 270 gr TSX from a .375 and got 11 inches, the 400gr Hornady DGX .416 ( 10 inches) , The 570 gr TSX from my 505 Gibbs ( 13 inches) and a couple of 900 gr Woodleighs from a 600 Overkill ( 9 & 13 inches)

You can see that in the penetration department that 220 Partitions give up little to other calibers. In fact I carried my 30-06 this season as backup during bear season and was forced to followup a wounded bear that charged from 5 yards.
Hopefully Rick can stick a photo of me and the bear on here.

Phil,

Good to hear you survived yet another season. Eileen, however, is worried about both of us surviving the next Single Malt season.

Am not surprised about your penetration tests, as they parallel mine.

If I survived this season I will probably survive our annual Single Malt get together.

Where do I buy tags and is a guide required??

Here's the photo Phil referred to. Nice bear!

Cool!
Man those things are huge!!

Wow ! And I was concerned about penetration on elk at bad angles. Thanks guys. E

We know Rick photoshopped a backbear there. That looks too good to be true. You are lucky you didn't get bit.

You know it's kind of funny, and certainly could be a thread all it's own, but when Alaskan's see this photo they say "wow, what a nice bear" and when they hear I used a 30-06 as my backup rifle they don;t bat an eye - but when rifle loony's, gun writers and editors see it and hear that I "only had a 30-06" they think that I'm lucky to be alive. what they don't realize is that for 50 years virtually every Alaskan guide use the 30-06 as their backup rifle - and every internet "expert" will tell you that bears were bigger then as well.

Welcome back, Phil.

Looking well. Good to read from you again. Interesting results reported on the penetration tests; and the allure of the .30-06.

Everyone realizes that penetration is but one dimension of wounding - placement of entry, direction of the wound in following, and extend of wound, both dimension and strucure/tissue-wise, being the other contributing factors.

So, while in penetration the 06 is on par, something made a world known, white bearded, alaskan guide switch to a .458 Win in a Mauser action. The man went through great length to make this an ultimate rifle for bear guiding - vey utilitarean, if a bit 'ugly'.

How I know? He wrote about it in Rifle magazine.



Thanks, btw, I learned a lot from that article.

I am not a big bore fan, nor am I a fan of hyper velocity rounds. I do see, however, a trend over the last century and a half to leave behind old fashioned ideas in favour of new, modern vastly superior (insert favourite name).

Large calibre, heavy for calibre, moderate velocity rounds have been reliable stoppers for a very long time on large tenatious of life creatures. That is historical fact.

There have been marked improvements made in projectiles over the last twenty years or so, and veocities can be increased to accomodate the desires of the speed afficiados without compromising the projectile. That is all well and good, but a slower moving large calibre round is still what is needed to reliably penetrate, and shock the fight out of a large dangerous animal.

I use small calbre like 308 for deer and moose, although I prefer 338 and over for moose. For bear thee is nothing like a 458 calibre to put them down. These are personal preferences based on personal experience over 45 years of hunting.

By the way Phil, I too chose the 3006 as backup on my African hunt last spring. That is a very nice bear. \congratulations

Randy

Phil,
Maybe this was stated earlier, but is that 30-06/220 partition setup using the faster twist barrel you were talking about a ways back?

Tim, can't speak for Phil, but Ive shot some 220s through my '06, both solid and soft, and never gave a thought to twist rate...also probably like Phil, never expected them to be used at any range that you could call long....they shot extremely well out to 100 yds. though...no tight twist...
Ingwe

The standard 10-inch twist in most .30-06 rifles comes from the original Springfields and the 220-grain roundnoses they fired. There is no need to go to a faster twist for any round-nose 220-grain bullet on the market.