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Rick,
I think perhaps you're putting a bit too much faith in the carbon dating of the shroud. One of the caveats to the carbon dating is the error rate associated with the shroud. At one point in time, the shroud was in a fire and such things can drastically change the carbon content of the shroud. Remember, carbon 14 dating is dependent upon the ambient carbon levels remaining at a constant, and there's just no way to know for sure if carbon levels have been constant for the life of the shroud. Atmospheric carbon levels have changed many times in earth's history. So you have to take carbon 14 dating for what it is and undersand that at times, it can have a very high error rate, and at times it can be very accurate.
Still, I personally doubt it's the shroud of Jesus and since there was a good deal of fame and money to be had back in the day, there's a good chance it could be a fake.
Still, it's an interesting piece of antiquity, even if it turns out that it's a fake.
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Campfire Tracker
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I don't personally care, but the age of the cloth dating to the middle ages has already been shown to be dating of cloth used for repairing the shroud. It was also felt that this sample may have been taken deliberately as a way of discrediting the shroud in the first place some 20 years ago.
I just like people's arguments to have merit.
Dan
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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this is an actual relic. a half eaten stack of pancakes w/ sausage. this was eaten by jesus as his last meal. prove me wrong. ![[Linked Image]](http://stresscake.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/half-eaten.jpg)
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Campfire Tracker
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Has anyone ever said that the shroud of Turin WAS the burial cloth of Jesus? I don't think so. Many have said it could be. The RC church has never insisted it was the actual shroud, and Pope John Paul II said, "Since we�re not dealing with a matter of faith, the church can�t pronounce itself on such questions. It entrusts to scientists the tasks of continuing to investigate, to reach adequate answers to the questions connected to this shroud."
I find it amusing that some people want to discredit it as the shroud of Jesus and thus somehow discredit faith, when it doesn't have any official credit that it is the shroud of Jesus. All anyone has ever been able to say is "Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Hard to say."
Steve
"I was a deerhunter long before I was a man." ~Gene Wensel's Come November (2000)
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If the carbon-14 dating is anything like accurate, the shroud is contemporary with a bunch of medieval attempts to revise the Bible. There were, for example, several "recently discovered" documents that were claimed to be "lost" books of the Bible or parallels to the Bible record.
Many Biblical hoaxes are well known as such. One, for example, is the fake "Pilate's report to C�sar." Another well known hoax is a fake account of pre-Eve creation � claiming simultaneous creation of Adam and Lilith. One famous Biblical hoax (I forget which one) was conclusively proved to be an inept copy of lines from General Wallace's novel Ben-Hur.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Outfitter
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this is an actual relic.
a half eaten stack of pancakes w/ sausage. this was eaten by jesus as his last meal.
prove me wrong. I'll bite.  As you know, one cannot prove a negative hypothesis. However one can make certain observations that suggest the claim in dubious. 1. Sausage contains pork, thus being not kosher. Of course we have no evidence that Jesus kept kosher. 2. While peaches were believed to be relatively common throughout Asia minor BCE, the Raspberry was not cultivated until after the first millennia, with the first written mention in 1548 in an English book on herbal medicine. The are not native to the middle east, originating in China and north American. 3. Forks we not in use in the middle east until the late 6th century, and were only used by the wealthy until about the 11th century. 4. The first reported use of maple 'syrup' was in a paper presented to the Royal Society in 1685. The Sugar maple itself is only found in New England, the Lake States, Mid-Atlantic states, and several Canadian provinces Thus, while the claim cannot be absolutely refuted, it seems highly unlikely.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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this is an actual relic.
a half eaten stack of pancakes w/ sausage. this was eaten by jesus as his last meal.
prove me wrong. I'll bite. As you know, one cannot prove a negative hypothesis. However one can make certain observations that suggest the claim in dubious. 1. Sausage contains pork, thus being not kosher. Of course we have no evidence that Jesus kept kosher. 2. While peaches were believed to be relatively common throughout Asia minor BCE, the Raspberry was not cultivated until after the first millennia, with the first written mention in 1548 in an English book on herbal medicine. The are not native to the middle east, originating in China and north American. 3. Forks we not in use in the middle east until the late 6th century, and were only used by the wealthy until about the 11th century. 4. The first reported use of maple 'syrup' was in a paper presented to the Royal Society in 1685. The Sugar maple itself is only found in New England, the Lake States, Mid-Atlantic states, and several Canadian provinces Thus, while the claim cannot be absolutely refuted, it seems highly unlikely. it was a miricle. being the son of god he had control over time/ space. he went forward to in time to 1992 IHOP and had them make it special. praise be unto him.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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I have been to IHOP. The food doesn't look like that.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There is a fact we can agree on! 
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ringworm, Tod you guys are funny.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Here is what I know is true:
Jesus is the one true messiah. He came on this earth for us. He died on the cross for us, and on the third day he rose for us. He is coming again and I believe it because the Bible told me so. Plus after all he has done for me and the healing he has gave to me tells me he's real. I can't see him and I can't hear him. But I see what he has created and I hear the wonderful sounds of my kids and that is proof enough. I have the faith!
Whether the Shroud if real or fake who cares. It doesn't take away from the fact that God is Real.
And the most important part. I don't care what Obama thinks. He is not the messiah and he will never be so he should just pack his bag and that commy wife and move in with Chavez.
Kique
Enrique O. Ramirez
CLAN OF THE BORDER RATS - Member
"..faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.." Hebrews 11:1
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Campfire Ranger
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I have been to IHOP. The food doesn't look like that. they try harder when your the messiah.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Campfire Ranger
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some believe in ghosts, UFO's, Big Foot etc. and will buy a piece of toast off ebay with a claimed picture of the Virgin Mary on it.
First off no one even saw a artists rendition of either person till several century's after they were dead.
I wonder how the artist knew what either looked like? They didn't.
The pictures sure don't don't look anything like people from that part of the world then or now. All that long flowing golden brown hair, gimme a break!
Why is it surprising folks think this "shroud' is real?
After all pet rocks sold well.
What a joke.
Last edited by 700LH; 10/06/09.
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I wonder how the artist knew what either looked like? They didn't.
The pictures sure don't don't look anything like people from that part of the world then or now. All that long flowing golden brown hair, gimme a break!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg) Starting with the assumption that Jesus resembled a typical peasant from 1st century CE Palestine, Richard Neave, a medical artist retired from the University of Manchester in England, and a team of researchers "started with an Israeli skull dating back to the 1st century. They then used computer programs, clay, simulated skin and their knowledge about the Jewish people of the time to determine the shape of the face, and color of eyes and skin." 2 Mike Fillon followed the research and wrote an article about the portrait in "Popular Mechanics" magazine. 3 He said during a CNN interview that: "There are very strong rabbinical laws in Israel that you cannot tamper with a skull or any bones, so they needed to reconstruct the skull. Using a cat scan, which is very common in hospitals, they were able to recreate the skull precisely and make a cast of it. Then they put small wooden pegs, based on anthropological data, to figure out what the muscle structure and the skin would look like, and so they layered that on using clay-like substances." 4
The result is shown in the left portrait above: a person with abroad peasant's face, dark olive skin, short curly hair and a prominent nose. His height would have been on the order of 5' 1"; he would have weighed about 110 pounds. Alison Galloway, professor of anthropology at the University of California in Santa Cruz , said that: "This [portrait] is probably a lot closer to the truth than the work of many great masters."
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't believe it, Jesus looks human? Say it isn't so!!!!
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OK. I don't believe it's so. That is, I don't believe the man Jesus was even that decent looking of a man. My Bible tells me He had no beauty that we should desire Him. But when He began speaking, then He was mezmerizing. The shroud of Turin is confirmed irrelevant to me. YSMV 
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire Regular
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Have read considerable about the shroud.
Lots of intrigue. Hardest to explain away is pollen trapped within it that is not found in France, but only in the Middle East region.
That said...
One author made a good case for the image possibly being that of Jacques De Molay, last Grand Master of the Knights Templars. Carbon dating of shroud is consistent with the era in which he was first brutally tortured and then burned at the stake...by King Phillip of France, and with the blessings of the Pope.
In any event...
I always find it interesting that, whenever something shows up that may actually physically prove the existence of Jesus, the Vatican inevitably blows it collective brains out trying to have it certified as fake.
In that vein, I tell my Christian friends that it's a pretty much given that, should Jesus ever return, the Vatican and Christians will be the first to deny Him, and label him some kind of kook.
Just sayin'...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I tell my Christian friends that it's a pretty much given that, should Jesus ever return, the Vatican and Christians will be the first to deny Him, and label him some kind of kook.
He may well walk among us now and frequently throughout history and has felt the denial and labels you mention. But I believe when He makes his promised return He'll come with an entrance and entourage that will be undeniable. There will be no need for a label as He'll already have one on His clothing and on His thigh, not that it will be needed. Everyone will know who He is and the day that has arrived.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How about cleaning up your breakfast?
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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In that vein, I tell my Christian friends that it's a pretty much given that, should Jesus ever return, the Vatican and Christians will be the first to deny Him, and label him some kind of kook.
Last edited by Pete E; 10/06/09.
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