Home Forums Birds & Dogs Waterfowl Hevi-shot or Black Cloud?

In your opinion - What is the best non-toxic brand for ducks and geese at 40 yards?

If I thought it would drop birds better, I could cough up the money for a box to try.

Anybody here tried hevi-shot? How does it compare to federal black cloud?

thnx

I have not tried Black Cloud (I do have a box but have not tried it yet). I have shot Hevi Shot and it does wack duck HARD!
Having said that I think you can use something like Kent Faststeel and choke down a little and do a very good job for a lot less money.
I do have a case of Hevi (got a great deal on it) but unless i could get it cheaper than $2 or $3 per shot, I would go with Faststeel.
JMHO....

Thanks. I haven't had a chance to try the Kent's.

I�m fairly new to waterfowling and really expected to down more birds than I have this season. It might be my shooting. But I�m blaming the ammo

I�ll be hunting primarily geese but maybe a few ducks as well. I�ve tried 2 � inch Remington steel loads (seemed fine at 30 yards, but about useless beyond that), 3 inch Federal Black Cloud BB (is 40 yards too far to expect downed birds?), and lately bought a box of 3 � inch Remington �non-toxic� BB. The only shot I tried with the new Remington was at ducks going away at 50 yards and no surprise � they kept going.

I am considering coughing up the cash for Hevi-shot. I wouldn�t mind paying for it IF it works better than anything else. How does it compare to the other brands of non-toxic shot? What size would you recommend for geese? #2, BB, T-shot?

What works for you?

I guess I am not overly impressed with any steel as I hunted too many years with lead.
Having said that I try real hard to keep shots under 40 yrds no matter what I am shooting (that also applied to the old day and lead). Your shot/kill ratio will go way up if you follow that rule of thumb.
Yes you can kill further than 40 yrds but your percentage drops off fast...

Two rules of thumb that I have found with steel are:

1) I like a little larger shot size (i.e. BB,#1,#2) for ducks and BBB for geese.

2) when it comes to steel shot, all else being equal,speed kills.
Go with the faster FPS shells.

+1 on what pullit said. Hevi-shot kills incredibly well, even in a twenty gauge using number 7 1/2 like I did last year. Found some on sale. Otherwise too high priced for me. Brimfish

Pullits advice is right on. Faster payload, let em get close if you can. I hunt over decoys on small water. All my shots are under 40 yds or I pass on the shot, never did with lead!!!! Ive killed ducks with all sorts of loads, my feeling is "its the shooter." Opening day this year i missed my 1st three ducks, 2 Teal and a Woodie. Same game, next day 2 shots, 2 dead birds. 2 days later, 3 pheasants with 3 shots. Friend of mine drops everything with any gun.?? My buddies motto; Back - Belly - Beak - BANG!
GOGETEM.

We just got home from our youth duck hunt with my 10yr old son. He was able to harvest one Malard,one Pintail, a Gadwall and two greenwing teel. He is shooting a 20ga. I bought him a box of the Black Cloud #4 and it was a winner. He had been shooting Heavi shot, it does indeed wack-m Hard. He made some shots with the B-Cloud that were impressive for a 20.ga The Black Cloud was $20 box of 25 and the Heavi shot is $13. per 10. I'm going to pick up a couple more box's of Black Cloud and keep him shooting.

Thanks for the updates guys

What choke were you using, and what gun.
I am thinking of playing with a 20 ga on a hunt or two this year and was thinking of using the BC shells.

thanks

forgot to say congrats on some good shooting

Remington 3 1/2 inch BB dropped 2 geese for me at 40 yards last night, but both were still flopping in teh water so I hit them again at +/- 45 yards. One died, the other FLEW AWAY!

Black Cloud 3 inch BB load - 3 shots at geese going up at +/- 45 yards. Didn't look like a single pellet hit. I am very disappointed in this stuff so far. Seems to me that a good BB load out to fold geese at 50 yards easily. I guess I'll have to try the Hevi shot next.

I have been very pleased with the results from Remington Wingmaster HD and Hevi-shot GOOSE.

The Hevi-Shot "duck" loads are not what you would expect. Their "goose" loads can be found in all the sizes you want for ducks, but the shot is a lot heavier per pellet than the "duck" loadings.

With these non-tox, non-steel loads I shoot 2's for geese and 4's for ducks and have been more than pleased with the results.

Sounds like Kilowatt has 10 yr old MEGAWATT. My guess is hes a natural. My eldest son started busting clays at 10, makes me look foolish, proud, but foolish. Good work. When i got married i never thought any future children would become favorite huntin/fishin buddies...Lifes good.

Stick with premium quality steel loads which offer true to size and very round pellets as well as components that will produce dense killing patterns. At the end of the day, to ensure a clean kill, you need pellets penetrating those vital organs. In terms of steel shot, a pellet that is less than round will shallow up quickly and will most likely not be able to achieve the necessary penetration.

Remington 'Nitro Steel', Federal 'Ultra-Shok Steel' or Winchester 'Super-X, Drylok Steel' are excellent cartridges and will kill ducks and geese just as cleanly as the alternative and more expensive non-toxic shot ammunition when chokes and loads have been matched up properly to specific species sizes and shooting distances.

I shoot the 3 1/2 inch Black Cloud 2's late season on the big water, ducks and geese. No problems putting ducks down a bit past 40 yards and geese out to about 30.

Where can I find Hevi shot for sale? Do I haev to amil order it (Cabela's), my local shops don't seem to have it.

unfortunately, that's just not true....the superior ballistic qualities of heavi-shot (and lead) mean that they will always be superior to any steel load....matching correct shot sizes and chokes is a way of minimizing the disadvantage of steel, but you will never close the gap. that's just a fact of life.


I'm just packing my shell bucket tonigh because I'm driving to SW La. for the opener Saturday....hunting below Geuydan Saturday, fishing Big Lake Calcescieu in the afternoon, and then duck and goose hunting above Cameron Sunday morning...busy weekend. Anyway, I'm packing five boxes of Hevi Shot classic doubles load, and using my old LC Smith. Bringing an A5 for backup, and five boxes of regular 2 /3/4 hevi shot for that. Are they expensive? Hell, yeah. But not as much more than steel as you'd think, because you shoot a hell of a lot less to get your limit. And you don't waste a bunch of 80 cent premium steel loads shooting cripples repeatedly on the water so they don't escape. And you don't lose cripples sailing away to die in the marsh.

for all the time and money we spend duck hunting, the difference in price between hevi-shot and steel pales into insignificance. I mean, the limit is six ducks....how many shots do you fire to get your limit? how pissed are you when you lose cripples? It's an easy choice to me. YMMV, of course.

I'm beginning to see things your way Steve. I can't find Kent or Heavy shot locally. I have posted a WTB in this sites classified's section but am considering mail order.....

you can order it from Cabelas or Midway.....I bought a bunch at the Cabelas in Gonzales, LA back in September when it first came in, but the still had plenty a week ago.

If I'm going to go to the trouble to drive, get up long before the crack of dawn, get grazed on by mosquitoes, probably rained on, and paddle back into the tall uncut for a chance to whack some quackers, it seems crazy to me not to invest the money to maximize the odds that....if and when the ducks show up....when I pull the trigger the result is an instantly dead duck. But that's just me.

Hi Steve,

I disagree with your view.

While lead-shot may be a denser/heavier material than steel, it is far from perfect. I still seem to recall the measures (copper/nickel plating, buffering etc.) that were used to get it to perform at length ranges.

As for hevi-shot, well it seems to be playing second fiddle to other products such as Winchester�s �XTENDED RANGE HI-DENSITY� or Remington�s �Wingmaster HD� or is it. When all is said and done, any bird that is killed cleanly and consistently at 40, 50 or 60 yards with any of these products is basically dead. The only difference is how much we paid for that privilege.

The same applies to steel shot! At the end of the day, Steel shot will kill ducks and geese cleanly well beyond the shooting skill range of average hunters. To suggest otherwise is nonsense!

While I don�t personally encourage shooting at extended ranges beyond 45-50 yards, ranges out to 60 yards or more are not a problem with steel. But don�t take my word for it, have a look at the peer reviewed science that has been collated on this subject by groups such as the USFWS, CONSEP, Winchester, Remington etc. Further to this look at blind-test studies of hunters (5 lead vs steel studies) who used both lead and steel � there were �no� differences in the number of wounded birds or harvest rates.

As for matching up loads and chokes, this is a normal and common shotgunning practice, not just because we are using steel. Just in the same way you have carefully selected and adjusted your choke and hevi-shot load choices to meet your waterfowling needs, the same has to be done with steel shot or any other product for that matter. To compare non-toxic shot alternatives such as Bismuth, Tungsten-Polymer, Hevi-Shot, Steel, Wingmaster HD etc. directly with one another is a pointless exercise. Simply choose a product and match it to your game and shooting ranges.

As for cost, I estimate you�re paying about a $1.50 per round more than premium quality steel shot. Just for your hunting trip alone, you�re already spending $150 more. If we further consider later season trip and additional ammunition, the cost starts to come up greatly.

One last thought. While many non-toxic shot alternatives have come and gone, steel shot has remained. It will continue to remain for the simple reason that it is an economically viable product and it kills game well.

if i were hunting geese with hevi-shot, id go with #4s...

Maybe steel shot shooters need a hundred rounds to get a limit, but I don't. Anybody shooting decoyed ducks who needs more than two ten shot boxes ($40 total) to limit out should be shooting lead shot on a skeet range instead of sitting in a blind.

The problems with those steel shot studies have been widely publicized and I have no interest in refighting that battle....I live in the state with the best waterfowl hunting and the most duck hunters in the US, and anybody who claims lead doesn't kill demonstrably better than steel.....even at "normal" ranges, has zero cred with me.

Are you saying you'd pick steel if you could afford hevi-shot...or say the cost was identical..which would you choose? Why would any sane person pick the material with the least sectional density for a given shot size? If the premium alternative shots are too expensive for one's budget, then by all means choose the fast steel loads. But don't pretend they're as good as lead or hevi-shot because they're not, anybody who has shot a lot of ducks with both knows that.

IMHO, of course. Your mileage obviously varies.

Why $4s John? They seem light for geese to me? What seem sto have worked best so far is Federal's #1 steel shot.

standard goose load in south La. is #2 Hevishot...back in the day it was #2 lead. some good callers use #4....

for steel, they use the huge lettered shot....and the crappy patterns that go with it

#2 or bb make sense to me since I can't seem to find more #1 size shot....

Steve, I am going to give some hevi a go. I hunt geese and I was wondering if they down size one shot size when going to hevi-shot as we do when going to TSX's in rifle bullets.

I've been running BB steel for a few years now, but I'm always open to something better. Thinking about #2's but will have to pattern some 3 inch. Compared to the Beretta Extrema, fuel, out of state license costs, hevi-shot seems cheap to me.


As a side note, 1oz of #2 steel has about 125 pellets, 1oz of #2 lead has about 90 pellets. I am curious to see where hevi-shot comes in per ounce.

Also, what would your redommendation for decoying ducks out to 4o yards be in a hevi-shot load, #4's or #6 I would assume?

Thanks, John

Hevi-shot in its solid form is supposed to be about the same density as lead, so the pellet count would be very similar. It is more than 40% denser than steel, and about the same as tungsten.

I use the same shot sizes I did with lead for hevi-shot....was never a fan of BBs for geese with lead, and I use 2s with hevi-shot just as I did with lead (a friend used to handload 12 ga. 3 in mag No. 3 lead back in the day, which was a kick ass load for called geese and also worked OK if a duck wandered into your goose hunt.)

I guess the big shot sizes may be necessary for super long range pass shooting, but I guess I'm just not a good enough shot for that. We call them and try to decoy them, rather than shell them at high altitude....

Credibility, Hmmm����

You really should refrain from making broad statements without supporting them. Here�s one �Maybe steel shot shooters need a hundred rounds to get a limit�. Is this based on personal experience or a study you came across somewhere?

Similarly, problems with the peer reviewed steel shot studies I sighted! Pleased enlighten me and everyone else here as to what those problems were. I must say I�m curious and I�m sure that Tom Roster, USFWS, CONSEP and various ammunition manufacturers and hunting wildlife agencies overseas would be very keen to hear what you have to say. Afterall tens-of-millions of dollars went into the collaction of this data and people need to know what those problems are.

Similarly, please tell me where I or anyone else said �lead does not kill� or any other shot type for that matter� please we are talking about credibility here.

Again, I stand by what I said earlier. Steel shot is capable of harvesting ducks and geese effectively and consistently � to suggest otherwise is complete and utter nonsense. Similarly, any suggestion that wounding/crippling of game birds is a direct result of using steel shot is just wrong.

Uh, no Einstein, it's based on your assertion that my hunt would cost me $150 dollars more because I use Hevi-shot, which would only be true if I had to fire 100 shots, using your figure of a buck fifty per shell difference, which is also overstated.


I note you don't answer the question of which is better, because lead and other heavy projectiles are so obviously superior. I also note your knowledge apparently comes from surveys designed to promote and validate steel shot, not from practical waterfowl experience.

Can steel kill ducks? Well, obviously it does. But the wounded and lost numbers are significantly higher....I know people who quit duck hunting over the difference. And I don't know a single serious waterfowler or duck and goose guide who wouldn't confirm that.....internet experts and studies paid for by steel shot promoters to the contrary.

My opinion is based on forty years of duck hunting, the last 30 in the area with the heaviest duck concentrations in North America, and twenty five of that very active in DU and talking to literally hundreds of experienced waterfowlers,
including a dozen this weekend. Many of the guys on the two leases I hunted this weekend are wage-earning, working class guys, for whom a grand a year for a good lease is a stretch. Almost without exception, they shell out for premium non-steel shot. And they don't go through your hypothetical hundred rounds in five duck hunts.

oh, and since you're a google-fu waterfowler, you might want to look at the Lacassine study, done in Louisiana....less than six miles from where I hunted today as a matter of fact....with blind testing of steel against lead in the freshwater marsh of soutwest La. It found steel far more likely to cripple....but of course, it was done as an open minded fair test, not an attempt to validate a government policy which was itself based on utterly bogus NWF estimates of lead poisoning mortality.

Read it and weep....you can probably google up the whole text of the Lacassine study....I know half a dozen people who participated, it was a lottery to get into the deal and hunt on the Lacssine Refuge, they put two hunters and a wildlife agent spotter in each blind, and gave the two hunters unmarked generic boxes so they didn't know which they were shooting, and neither did the spotter so it wouldn't affect his or her judgments. The survey is a damning indictment of steel shot.

http://www.webbedpause.com/hrchist/news5.htm

Thanks for the compliment! However, it does not take a genius to find the holes in your arguments or to understand when someone is grasping at straws.

My statement of $150 is true yet my $1.50 is overstated. Which is it?

My hypothetical comment? Sorry, I seem to recall it was your statement�.remember. �Maybe steel shot shooters need a hundred rounds to get a limit�. So now you�re saying steel shot users don�t go through 100 rounds for their bag limit. Well, we at least agree on this.

As for my knowledge, I know this will trouble you greatly - it does not come from the internet. It comes from over 30 years of upland bird and waterfowl hunting, approximately 20 years of which have been spent using and testing many different non-toxic shot alternatives.

I�m the first to admit that my views of steel shot and its performance have changed dramatically in that time, much of which is thanks to the efforts of people like Tom Roster and the late Dick Dietz. Put simply, both men went about addressing many of the issues surrounding steel shot � much of which are the same myths you�re propagating today. All of which have been dispelled despite your efforts to rewrite history.

I even went to the extent of undertaking CONSEP�s 1.5 day workshop and CONSEP�s awareness and enable training program. This is where I learnt of the studies (not surveys) and had my shooting and hunting skills evaluated in front of my peers. While I saw firsthand the effective use of steel shot, this is where I also learned to properly evaluate my equipment against proven lethality data which was derived from the harvesting of thousands of geese with steel shot at various ranges and with varying choke and load combinations. So when people come out and say steel shot doesn�t kill beyond 30 yards or it cripples more than other non-toxic shot alternatives I have to laugh.

I would urge you, your friends and anyone else reading this thread to undertake the 1.5 day workshop. This will bring your hunting up to a totally different and rewarding level as it has for thousands of upland bird and waterfowl hunters. I honestly believe you�ll be singing a different tune upon completing such a course.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately dumb or it's real....you, not me, said that I would save $150 dollars on my hunt by using steel. You, not me, said I'd save a dollar fifty a box. Therefore, you, not me, apparently think it takes a hundred shells to make a duck hunt. Don't ask me....you said it.


What I said is that I don't use a hundred shells on a duck hunt.....or on four duck hunts for that matter. And that you're overstating the difference in cost. That's not an either/or statement....I said you're wrong on both counts.


I don't know.... maybe you really think it takes a hundred shells...you know, shooting cripples multiple times on the water does burn a lot of shells, I guess. Otherwise, your original statement is nonsensical...only you can explain, since it was you statement.

The point is...everybody knows steel is inferior. Your argument is apparently....well, it's not that inferior, and it will kill a duck.

I'm sorry...but given the choice, I'm going to use the deadliest shells I can buy. And I know what those are.

You can, of course, buy whatever you want. and no, thanks I don't think I'll be going to any CONSEP seminars, nor any other ICI functions. I'll just keep killing ducks, you can handle the seminars.

I'll raise on your Lacassine study with this;

http://www.tws-west.org/transactions/Roster.pdf

You might also want to consider that with the exception of the Nilo studies (never peer reviewed) 12 other studies found no difference.

Please feel free to reach for that tissue box now

A reminder is propbably in order. You stated the following;

I'm just packing my shell bucket tonigh because I'm driving to SW La. for the opener Saturday....hunting below Geuydan Saturday, fishing Big Lake Calcescieu in the afternoon, and then duck and goose hunting above Cameron Sunday morning...busy weekend. Anyway, I'm packing five boxes of Hevi Shot classic doubles load, and using my old LC Smith. Bringing an A5 for backup, and five boxes of regular 2 /3/4 hevi shot for that. Are they expensive? Hell, yeah. But not as much more than steel as you'd think, because you shoot a hell of a lot less to get your limit. And you don't waste a bunch of 80 cent premium steel loads shooting cripples repeatedly on the water so they don't escape. And you don't lose cripples sailing away to die in the marsh.

5 + 5 = 10 packets = 100 shells. 100 x $1.50 (per shell, not per box) = $150.....I think my maths and projected cost difference is sound. Oh, it does not take a genius to look up a web based store to see the difference in price between premium steel and other non-toxic shot alternatives.

So did you have 100 shells for your hunt or not? Seems to me like alot of shells for a weekender....you sure you didn't use them all

True enough. But it's not exactly *required*. I'd be in the po' house if all I shot were those high-end loads. As it stands, I burn through perhaps $500 in ammo a season. What's that translate into for TM or HS? A loooong winter on the couch for starters, prolly! Steel Estate 4s, 1 1/8 oz load @ ~ 1500FPS are what I've been playing with of late. No complaints about penetration on birds here as yet. Bon chance on your ducking, Steve.

Hi Ihonda,

What choke(S) are you using with these loads?

Cheers,

SAKO85BAV

I had 100, which will last me well into the second split. Due to bizarre leper blind draw, unfortunately, I brought 92 of them home. And it would have been 95 if I hadn't used three to kill other people's steel shot cripples.

The Lacassine survey is surely dated, and the fast steel loads now available are deadlier than what was available back then. But sectional density is what it is, and physics is what it is. Steel will never be as good as lead or Hevi-shot....improvements may lessen the differential, but it is simply impossible to eliminate it. How much one is willing to pay for the difference is a personal choice...I'm happy with mine.

Lhonda....headed you way on Wednesday for eleven days in New England. I'll give you a shout. Probably staying down in Litchfield fishing with kids most of the time.

Of course non-toxic steel shot loads are very different nowadays as is the supportive technology i.e. chokes. Imagine using or suggesting the use of a full choke back in the day of the Lacassine study. You would have probably been burnt at the stake as a heretic � today, it�s recognized as a real and viable option for extended range pass-shooting situations.

As I said earlier, steel will kill cleanly and consistently well beyond the shooting skill range of the average hunter. It will certainly kill game out +60 yards (well beyond the shooting skill range of many hunters) provided the hunter has properly matched the load (shot size, load weight and load velocity) and choke to the game bird species and shooting distances � again, hunters should be doing this with all non-toxic shot alternatives, not just steel.

Steve, like thousands of hunters, I will also continue to use steel shot with the utmost confidence.....becuase it works well and it will be around long after other products have faded away.

Good hunting

...

This will solve all of your problems:

In the Timber or Small Potholes - Use #2 or smaller Steel or #4-6 Hevi-shot with a Modified or Improved Choke

Fields or Open Water - Use #2 or larger Steel or #4 or larger Hevi + Full choke


If you shoot em in the head under 60 yards - it usually don't matter what size it is.

I'm ready to bust some ducks - this weekend.

I agree, close or far, steel 2�s are an excellent choice for lager game birds such as mallard or pintail.

For ranges under 40 yards I usually use a 1-1/8 ounce load of steel 4�s or 3�s with a modified (0.020� constriction) choke when hunting these big birds. If I know I�m going to be stretching the shot out to 50 or 60 yards I move straight up to a 1-1/4 ounce or 1-3/8 ounce load of 2�s and an Improved Modified (0.025� constriction) or Full (0.030� constriction) choke. I do not use larger pellet sizes such as 1�s or BB�s as I find that patterns become too thin to be of any use at extended ranges.

Teal sized birds are a different scenario and require greater pattern density than the 2�s have to offer at ranges over 40 yards. I usually use 1-1/4 ounce or 1-3/8 ounce load of 4�s or 3�s.depending on range. Out to 50 yards the 4�s work fine and the 3�s have proven effective out to 60 yards. At these extreme ranges I generally use either a Full or Extra Full (0.040� constriction) choke.

.