Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 450 Marlin in and SMLE- Enfield

The Lee Enfield has been loaded to some fairly "stiff" loading in the past. The 308 and 45/70 are a couple that come to mind. Just wondering if anyone has made the move and loaded the
rifle for the 450 Marlin. Two things come to mind (1) the enfield
can be loaded to higher pressures than the lever (2) the enfield
would allow the bullet to be loaded out further there by
allowing more room for powder.. Would love to hear from anyone who has done such a conversion. I await your input and thanks
for your time. Cheers NC

Two words: Rimmed Cartridge.

The SMLE uses the 303 brit which has essentially the same rim as the 45/70.

BMT

I'm not sure why?

The enfield is a cock on close action. It would not be my choice for a sporting rifle.

It's also prone to stretching, especially the SMLE (WW I version.) All of them stretch, but I don't think they're up to really hot loads. In fact, excessive head space was so common the correctin was done at user level. Can't find those bolt heads easily any more, they've all been used up.

Gibbs made 45-70s out of the No 4s, not reported how they stood up, though.

Yes....I built a 458 American on a SMLE2A action a few years back, basically because I had a 2A action lying around without a decent barrel...I could have chambered for the 450 M but didn't for some very specific reasons.

I posted some of the information on this forum, Graybeard and Accurate Reloading...do a search for SMLE...You can use the 450 M just as well and just as easy and workable and you can chamber for or use the 444M case, WSM case and Rigby or Gibbs cases with some mods to the case length and to the 308 mag and careful reloading practices...you can also use the 303 mag and trigger bow with the needed mods...BUT..you need to know and understand a lot of information or a gunsmith might use you for immoral purposes if you can't do the work yourself. This is definitely a DIY project as paying a 'smith is not worth the cost...even though it is basically just a chamber/thread job.

The SMLE rifle action is usually passed over for a number of good and not so good reasons and it is just as usable as the mauser actions, both needing some mods to get them working right...all arguable...you just have to decide for yourself.

July-August #170 Handloader has an article on converting a #4 MkI to 45-90. Can't understand why everyone keeps futzing around with a that large rimmed cartridge when the 444M, 458 WM or 450 Marlin works so much better WITHOUT the problem of major magazine mods.

If you are interested in doing one there are several things you need to think over...the first thing is forget most of what has been posted before...start with an open mind and think of the receiver's capabilities and disabilities...THEN work through the few problem areas...you will end up with a very nice shooter.

The receiver is rated at 42-45kCUP...use 42kCUP as the upper limit for safety sake. I have loads that rival a standard 458 WM velocity with certain bullet weights, WITHOUT HI PRESSURES, by using the right powders and 50 odd years of wildcatting.

The action is rough being a military action...the fact it is a cock on close mades it one of the fastest cycling bolt actions of WWII...the firing pin spring pops the bolt open and ejects the spent cartridge with just a flick of the wrist...it is inherently stronger in some areas than the other bolt actions available at that time...damn near impossible to break the stock at the grip. I won't go any farther, go do your own homework and decide...this is a very "argument filled area".

The 2A's 12 round mag with a max overall cartridge length of 3" allows for 6 - 458 A's down and one up...No messing around with trying to get that HUGE rimmed cartridge to feed and the need to hog out the receiver ring...basically just a bit of "bend and try" work on the mag feed lips and I had to make a new follower out of aluminum...mine feeds slick as any of my Mauser or clones.

I used a Adams and Bennett barrel...on sale from Midway...bought a 55� threading tool bit and cut the 14 TPI, rented a reamer. I also set the headspace up so I CAN shoot 45-70 AND 45-90 rounds that had the rims turned down to 0.575" OD...one in the mag and one up...just for kicks, but I keep the mag full of 525 gr hard cast slugs.

You can use factory 450 M as is or the advanced reloader can do some "fudging" with the velocity and still keep the pressure within the 42kCUP rang.

There are a few other "secrets" to this(my) rifle I won't mention online just to keep someone without a mind from doing something that will get them hurt.

I would recommend the #4 Mk I action because of the better setup for scope mounting than the 2a action if I was doing one again and replace the 303 trigger bow with the 308 trigger bow and mag, the mag is slightly fatter and has a different shape which makes it feed better...I tried both the 303 and 308 mags during the building phase of this project.

In all reality...if you can't do the whole shebang yourself, just buy a Marlin levergun in 450M if you want a 450 M and call it good...you will be money ahead. If you want a 45 or 50 cal SMLE you need to DIY. In the old days when mauser and SMLE rifle were 5-10 bucks apiece yes, but not in todays world of $250 or less Savage rifles that only need a new "switch" barrel and/or bolthead.

I like my "Smelly 45 magnum", it shoots great, plenty accurate for 125 yd in with open sights and my old eyes, haven't killed anything but pine trees and the odd squirrel and it does a GREAT job on both.

Luck on your projects.

NFG,
Well said. Many moons ago I looked on a No4 converted to 444Marlin by a gunsmith. When I asked how he got it feeding, I think he said he utilised a Mossberg 410guage magazine. When I asked how hard it was, the only comment he made was "You wouldn't want to be paying for my time". I've toyed with the idea of converting a No4 to 45/90 ... the price of a S/H Marlin in 45/70 is the detracted.
Cheers...
Con

The SMLE/450 is an interesting idea. I had a local gunsmith make up a 450 Marlin on a P-14 Enfield action. The rifle feeds well and shoots quite well. I'm very pleased with it.

Back in the mid 1950's on, this was not and uncommon conversion at all, depending on who you ran with. The cock on closing is not and issue if the rifle is not dismounted from the shoulder. It becomes and aid to firing the rifle as it shoves the muzzle back down and helps from the shoulder ejecting the spent round. I have seen some amazing cast bullet groups from this conversion. This was at one time the older timers favorite conversion.

There are a lot of very good actions from the "olden days" of wildcatting...and many that were mis-converted, screwed up then bad-mouthed by some of the early writers and gunsmiths. Most of this "secret" knowledge is/has/will be lost as those/we old timers get dirt tossed in our faces. Too bad...this internet helps get out some of that knowledge but there are too many "igernat bawstids" blowing off lots of this information...even more "too bad"...

That 444M case is a sleeper very few want to work with...as is the 450 M, and the WSM.

Luck on your quests.

Jackfish has an excellent recommendation, and NFG brings up a good point in modifying magazines, etc., to fit the huge rims when the .450 Marlin uses the same bolthead size as the belted mags. The .450 is, as you are probably aware of, a ballistic twin to the .45/70 in it's capabilities when handloading is involved.

A quick conversion would be a Savage in a short-mag, unscrew short-mag barrel, screw in .450 marlin, and work on the feeding quirks associated with blunt bullets, usually feed ramp. Actually, any brand short-mag is usable, it's just that the Savage lends itself to barrel changes much easier if this is going to be a DIY.

Either Savage LA or SA is probably the quickest, cheapest and easiest platform to use for just about ANY caliber conversion for someone without a lathe or mill, as it is basically a quick change on barrels or bolt heads...Definitely NOT a DGR tho'.

I use 2 LA and 2 SA receivers and have/had at least one barrel for every caliber up to .416...I'm have converted one bolt head to handle Rigby and Gibbs base diameters...I have in mind to do at least a 50 cal and maybe a .585 or .620 cals...just to do one...to shoot rats, cans, rocks and paper and not for hunting...these are way over anything needed for N.A. hunting.

The receiver with the necessary mods to the mag AND with the reloading sense required to keep the pressures within the capabilities of the RECEIVER...will handle the Lapua/Rigby case out to 50 cal with hardly a bump...but that conversion is NOT for those with limited smarts. I have drawn up some mag designs to handle the Gibbs case 3 down. That will take some additional stock work etc and isn't for the faint hearted or mindless either.

As a point of INTEREST ONLY!!!!...the LA will also handle a full length 50 BMG by pulling out the bolt each time, but I will say no more.

Wildcatting is fertile ground for those with vivid imaginations or just plain hair brained...don't know which description fit best. hahahahaha

Luck on your projects.

Good point on the Savage, my preference is either the Winchester or Ruger actions. Though the action will handle pressure above 42 K, the extractor on a Savage can be in question in a "it must work, regardless!". And, at 42 KPSI, the Marlin round (and 45/70) is a fairly good thumper, for NA game.

I have a 458 american built on a remington 660 action. fiber optic front site with vented hood and a williams side mounted peep, makes for a excellent short gun. 350s @ 2000fps with starting loads. I can't see why it would be any less in the smelly.

ill defer to others for the other ins and outs of the rest of it but as someone that has hunted with a SMLE, several 1917's and an 1895 Chilien Mauser.....in a hunting rifle yah dont notice cock on closing, if you do your paying way to much attention to stuff that dont matter....in a prairie dog rifle where your shooting hundreds of rounds from a bench it might suck but chasing deer and the like i dont notice it and go back and forth between cock on opening and closing rifles and dont hardly notice the difference....

As far as head space I believe it is a built in feature of the enfield that you can adjust the bolt for head space - am I right about this?

I don't think it was done because of stretching, I think it was done because of manufacturing tolerances in an arm that would be produced in the millions for a major military power arming men all over the world. It just made good sense for an armorer to be able to adjust the head space.

you can switch out bolt heads to compensate but there is no adjustment on the bolt head....

Exactly - thats what I thought it was - I have seen the different bolt heads advertised before.

I knew Enfields and 1917's were used for big bore guns, but havnt read anything real detailed about it.

IIRC there are 5 different bolt heads for the SMLE to compensate over the life of the rifle......the 1917 is the same sorta setup as the 98 Mauser though and its a part of the bolt....

there is enough meat on a 1917 action that you can remove enough and still have plenty to run a 505 Gibbs.......i do know they are darn heavy for anything on a '06 case.....ive got a 1917 chambered in 338-06 that a 10 year old could shoot all day with minimal discomfort....